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-   -   Ralph Hill on his way out? (http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20926)

lhsgolf19 04-27-2012 02:23 PM

Ralph Hill on his way out?
 
Some interesting tweets just posted:

Ralph Hill ‏ @RalphNoLauren50
Times like this u really gotta dig deep and pray...

Ralph Hill ‏ @RalphNoLauren50
Idk what my future holds

Ralph Hill ‏ @RalphNoLauren50
Who coulda thought after everything I been thru this choice wasn't even mine

Ralph Hill ‏ @RalphNoLauren50
Don't feel sorry tho...in retrospect I'm glad for the honesty

Ralph Hill ‏ @RalphNoLauren50
I ain't been that mad In awhile!!!!

Ralph Hill ‏ @RalphNoLauren50
Moms can really put things in perspective and calm me down

Ralph Hill ‏ @RalphNoLauren50
A million thoughts racin thru my head


I dunno what to think... Is he out? If so, Good Luck Ralph

Could be an interesting weekend for UD Basketball

wes 04-27-2012 02:28 PM

Sounds like he lost a girlfriend.

San Diego Flyer 04-27-2012 02:29 PM

wow. look for breaking news. this would light up the MB.

lhsgolf19 04-27-2012 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer (Post 266901)
wow. look for breaking news. this would light up the MB.

lol huh?

Fan4allUDSports 04-27-2012 02:32 PM

Well according to Devin Oliver's twitter a lot is about to change, retweeted by Josh Benson. Coaching change? Multiple players out? Interesting.

AC91 04-27-2012 02:34 PM

interesting. obviously it leaves a lot to speculate. I, for one, hope he wasn't forced out. I think UD should stick by the athlete it recruited if he is holding up his end in the classroom, as a member of the student body and as a good teammate...even if he doesn't turn out to be the player we had hoped (call it the Nick Stafford precedent). All indications I've gotten is that he has been all of that. I understand UD is not required to do that, but since when has UD only been interested in doing the bare minimum in cases like this?

cases like this are never that cut and dried but i hope it's not the case.

UD Sam 04-27-2012 02:35 PM

Ralph Hill ‏ @RalphNoLauren50
Who coulda thought after everything I been thru this choice wasn't even mine

My first thought was that Archie terminated his scholarship....but I find that hard to believe.

John C. 04-27-2012 02:45 PM

My guess is that Ralph was told that he would get virtually no playing time. Better to hear it now instead of next year. It isn't like we need another scholarship at this point, we still have two open and our top choices have offers from Big Six schools that will be hard to beat. I, too, would be disappointed if we asked him to leave, but then again, it's not my job to produce a winner. It's just my job to complain when we don't!

CE80 04-27-2012 02:48 PM

I have said it before, Twitter can be very dangerous. I am amazed at what HS and college tweet about. They put all their thoughts and emotions out there for everyone to see. Reading the the tweets you have no clue whether something id the end of the world or no big deal.

UDBrian 04-27-2012 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC91 (Post 266904)
interesting. obviously it leaves a lot to speculate. I, for one, hope he wasn't forced out. I think UD should stick by the athlete it recruited if he is holding up his end in the classroom, as a member of the student body and as a good teammate...even if he doesn't turn out to be the player we had hoped (call it the Nick Stafford precedent). All indications I've gotten is that he has been all of that. I understand UD is not required to do that, but since when has UD only been interested in doing the bare minimum in cases like this?

cases like this are never that cut and dried but i hope it's not the case.

The rest of this to me depends upon whether a player is working to improve. What if someone is going through the motions and doing the bare minimum of attending mandatory practices? Is that enough to warrant retaining their scholarship?

Sea Bass 04-27-2012 02:56 PM

IMO, if a player is doing well in school and practicing hard with no off court issues they should be allowed to stay if they want. I understand that Archie did not recruit Ralph but there should be a commitment from the university to each player.

What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?

Sea Bass 04-27-2012 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. (Post 266906)
I, too, would be disappointed if we asked him to leave

we will have to see what happens but the tone of his tweets made it seem like he wasn't being asked.

st marys 04-27-2012 03:00 PM

When i first read the tweets I thought they could as easily mean he broke up with a girlfriend as was kicked off the team.

UDBrian 04-27-2012 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Bass (Post 266909)
IMO, if a player is doing well in school and practicing hard with no off court issues they should be allowed to stay if they want. I understand that Archie did not recruit Ralph but there should be a commitment from the university to each player.

What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?

The practicing hard issue was my point. What if someone really isn't practicing to become better? Every situation can be different but I think a player owes it to the university and his teammates to be working on his game. I don't have any inside knowledge about Ralph, I am just throwing that out as general thought

If a player wants to sit on the bench and not play and is doing everything in his power to improve I would agree that the scholarship should be honored

FlyingArrow 04-27-2012 03:07 PM

If they force Ralph out the door, my respect for Archie will plummet like a rock. If they told him he won't play next year, that's completely different.

FlyingArrow 04-27-2012 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fan4allUDSports (Post 266903)
Well according to Devin Oliver's twitter a lot is about to change, retweeted by Josh Benson. Coaching change? Multiple players out? Interesting.

Oliver weighed in at 217. That's up 17 pounds from last fall - a good sign.

Sea Bass 04-27-2012 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDBrian (Post 266912)
The practicing hard issue was my point. What if someone really isn't practicing to become better?

then they can be asked to leave. If you have an academic scholarship, don't work hard and get poor grades they will take it away.

AC91 04-27-2012 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDBrian (Post 266912)
The practicing hard issue was my point. What if someone really isn't practicing to become better? Every situation can be different but I think a player owes it to the university and his teammates to be working on his game. I don't have any inside knowledge about Ralph, I am just throwing that out as general thought

If a player wants to sit on the bench and not play and is doing everything in his power to improve I would agree that the scholarship should be honored

I hear you UDBRian. my thought process included working/practicing hard as part of being a good teammate.

nwflyer 04-27-2012 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingArrow (Post 266914)
If they force Ralph out the door, my respect for Archie will plummet like a rock. If they told him he won't play next year, that's completely different.

I agree that distinction bewteen these directions is significant from the University and the fans viewpoint.

I doubt most players would perceive a difference.

Not only does terminating a scholarship reflect poorly on a University and the Basketball program, that type of action seems unnecessary. Terminating a scholarship is not a smart move.

lhsgolf19 04-27-2012 04:07 PM

One more tweet:

Posted it 45 minutes ago:

Ralph Hill ‏ @RalphNoLauren50
im not mad at anybody about this what im mad about is the situation that i was put in

Medford 04-27-2012 04:08 PM

Its moments like these (and perhaps only moments like these) that I miss JohnR.

What?

GoSteelers 04-27-2012 04:11 PM

Scholarships are not terminated, simply not renewed. Remember the scholarships are 1 year scholarships renewed each year. Well within Archie's rights to do so.

I also wonder if this has any real effect on perception from a recruiting perspective. If any recruit saw themselves coming in here and sitting the bench with little to no playing time, they probably would not come here. I doubt recruits ever perceive this type of situation happening to them when they are making their decision.

MrFlyerFanatic 04-27-2012 04:17 PM

Engineering
 
Today is the official last day of classes. Exams start Monday.
Having an Engineering degree from UD, I can tell you that a lot of decisions are made and directions change at this point in Ralph's education. The first 2 years are a lot of general Engineering courses. 3rd, 4th, 5th year are focussed on what you want to do for the rest of your life. Projects completed and exams taken at this time of year can have a big impact on those decisions and directions. Honors programs? Co-op? Internship? Can scholarship athletes participate in the co-op program or get an internship?
From what I've read about Ralph and the influence of this mom, it's not all about basketball.
Another perspective.

NCkevi 04-27-2012 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoSteelers
Scholarships are not terminated, simply not renewed.

Is there really any difference? How ever you want to phrase it, you're being told your services are no longer wanted as you're being shoved out the door.

San Diego Flyer 04-27-2012 04:36 PM

I agree that technically there is a difference, but how it is handled with the individual really makes all the difference.

Iguomaniac 04-27-2012 04:44 PM

If the rumblings are true, I wonder what's going on with recruiting that Archie needs that scholarship for next year. Many people here were speculating that he wouldn't use all of the available scholarships even with Ralph coming back. I can't believe Archie wouldn't renew a scholarship if he was planning on holding it anyway.

I feel bad for Ralph because he seems like a good guy. However sometimes in life you bite off more than you can chew and the world takes you down a different path than you expected. We've all seen people get in over their heads with academic scholarships, jobs, relationships and goals. Often it's not even their fault, it's just the circumstances at hand.

Even if Ralph loses his scholarship, he should keep his head up because he has a ton of options available to him. He could go play for another team or get academic scholarships and grants to continue his studies. It sounds like he is a good student and there are a wealth of opportunities for people in his position both while in school and after graduation.

UDFLIES 04-27-2012 06:17 PM

I'm sorry but you can't lose respect for Archie for doing what he thinks is best for the team.. He will lose his job if the team doesn't win.

Let's face it..we are extremely deep at the 3 and 4 next year. Ralph would be buried very deep on the bench. Ralph wouldn't see the court either of the next 2 years.

If Archie is confident on getting any two of Taylor, sibert, and LeVert...and wants to keep an open scholarship then letting Ralph go is the right thing to do. If anything I am gaining respect for Archie because he is doing everything he can to turn Dayton into a better basketball program.
Posted via Mobile Device

FlyerFanatic08 04-27-2012 06:24 PM

harris has an article, ralph wouldnt talk, but his mom has a quote. looks like ralph might be on his way out...said they need to talk next week about it.

linky: http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs...cxtype=feedbot

longtimefan 04-27-2012 06:53 PM

If Archie simply talked to him and told him he wouldn't get much playing time and Hill chooses to leave on his own that is one thing. If AM flat out pulls his scholarship, that is quite another matter. We have criticized other coaches for doing that very thing. I don't think we want to start doing that at UD with players who are good students and are not trouble makers.

NCkevi 04-27-2012 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDFLIES
I'm sorry but you can't lose respect for Archie for doing what he thinks is best for the team.. He will lose his job if the team doesn't win.

If Ralph is being forced out, I personally find that distasteful and hope that it doesn't become the norm - I'm also a little bothered it took 6 weeks from the end of the season for AM to come to this decision. As upset as we were about TM waiting so long to announce his decision to transfer, I think if a player is being asked to leave, they should have as much time as possible to find a new destination

I don't want to have a successful team that I'm embarrassed by like our rivals to the south.

FlyerFanatic08 04-27-2012 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan (Post 266950)
If Archie simply talked to him and told him he wouldn't get much playing time and Hill chooses to leave on his own that is one thing. If AM flat out pulls his scholarship, that is quite another matter. We have criticized other coaches for doing that very thing. I don't think we want to start doing that at UD with players who are good students and are not trouble makers.

i would think thats the more likely scenario. especially since arch has a semi-relationship with ralph having coached him this season. you tend to get to know a guy, from all accounts ralph is a hell of a student and good guy. i doubt archie simply goes to him and says you're out of here.

probably had a lengthy conversation about ralphs situation and it was looking grim.

UDFLIES 04-27-2012 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan (Post 266950)
If Archie simply talked to him and told him he wouldn't get much playing time and Hill chooses to leave on his own that is one thing. If AM flat out pulls his scholarship, that is quite another matter. We have criticized other coaches for doing that very thing. I don't think we want to start doing that at UD with players who are good students and are not trouble makers.

You're right... Lets keep the players that are going to add nothing on the court and miss out on a player that can actually help the the team win..

Then when we go to the NIT for the next 4 years we can keep complaining on why we can never make the NCAA or finish at the top of the A-10
Posted via Mobile Device

ClaytonFlyerFan 04-27-2012 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan (Post 266950)
If Archie simply talked to him and told him he wouldn't get much playing time and Hill chooses to leave on his own that is one thing. If AM flat out pulls his scholarship, that is quite another matter. We have criticized other coaches for doing that very thing. I don't think we want to start doing that at UD with players who are good students and are not trouble makers.

I agree 100%, but.........

We live in a society that wants instant satisfaction. This was Archies first season, yet halfway through we had posters on this board upset with our results and lack of wins. We have a very active thread going now where posters are ranting and raving about our increased seat license prices, as they want more wins and success before they are asked to pay more money.
And we all want it now, not next season.

Archie is young, but he was hired to build our program, win games, and get us deep into the NCAA tourney. If he strongly feels RH using one of our our scholarships the next two seasons will hinder these results, Archie may very well have done what he thought he had to do to get us to the next level.

Do I personally agree with treating the kids this way, whom we bring in as recruits and sell them on our university and how great of education and 4 years it will be, NO.

Is NCAA basketball now big business where the CEO must sometimes make hard decisions like this, Yes, sadly. "We" the fans have demanded it over the course of time. "We" want our team to suceed, be on ESPN regularly instead of our local cbs affiliate. Sadly, Ralph Hill may have had to be sacrificied in the process.

Marysville Flyer 04-27-2012 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDFLIES (Post 266945)
I'm sorry but you can't lose respect for Archie for doing what he thinks is best for the team.. He will lose his job if the team doesn't win.

Let's face it..we are extremely deep at the 3 and 4 next year. Ralph would be buried very deep on the bench. Ralph wouldn't see the court either of the next 2 years.

If Archie is confident on getting any two of Taylor, sibert, and LeVert...and wants to keep an open scholarship then letting Ralph go is the right thing to do. If anything I am gaining respect for Archie because he is doing everything he can to turn Dayton into a better basketball program.
Posted via Mobile Device

We don't need to be this kind of team. IF it is true that Ralph got forced out, AND there is not a disciplinary reason for it, I gotta say I am quite upset and believe we took a huge step backward as a program and I WILL HAVE lost a LOT of respect for AM.

What message does this send about commitment by the University? What lessons are we teaching the student athletes? If more wins justifies wrong actions, I'd rather lose.

Having said this, we may never know what the truth is. I will give AM the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully, this will not be a trend.

T-Bone 84 04-27-2012 07:29 PM

From reading between all the lines, IMHO, it sounds like Ralph was told either:
(a) that he'd have little-to-no PT for the next 2 years (given our projected 3/4 depth situation for the next 2 years), but that we'd honor his athletic scholarship, or
(b) that his athletic scholarship was being pulled, but UD would find a way to let him keep going to school (probably tuition- and board-free) in Engineering.

I presented (b) as an option because of his mom's statement in Harris's article: “Ralph is still working through his options. As far as when he’ll have that decision made, I don’t know that he has it made or has a deadline or when he’s going to make that decision. But I know him and I plan to spend some time talking about it this weekend and next week when he comes home after finals are done.

So, it sounds like UD gave him a choice, but that the choice won't necessarily include a guaranteed spot on the roster.

I'm a mixture of feelings here. While I agree that Ralph seems very bright, and that he seems to be a credit to the university and the program, I remember seeing him often at the Arena when he was in HS. I found it hard, at that time, to believe we were recruiting a medium-height, skinny, PF. Heck, Derenbecker was a guard at LSU, and he's bigger than Ralph.

All that said, I'd think we could use a 13th scholarship on someone like Ralph, and I'll be disappointed if we pulled his athletic 'ship without giving him a HUGE incentive to stay at UD anyway. If you make a commitment to someone, then you honor it to the best of your ability, period - not just until the next "flavor of the month" comes along.

Marysville Flyer 04-27-2012 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDFLIES (Post 266954)
You're right... Lets keep the players that are going to add nothing on the court and miss out on a player that can actually help the the team win..

Then when we go to the NIT for the next 4 years we can keep complaining on why we can never make the NCAA or finish at the top of the A-10
Posted via Mobile Device

Yes because those are absolutely the only two options here.

UDFLIES 04-27-2012 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer (Post 266962)
Yes because those are absolutely the only two options here.

My point is Archie's job is on the line and I don't "lose respect" for him wanting more talented players.
Posted via Mobile Device

Marysville Flyer 04-27-2012 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDFLIES (Post 266963)
My point is Archie's job is on the line and I don't "lose respect" for him wanting more talented players.
Posted via Mobile Device

His job is not on the line and he already has 2 schollies yet to be filled. If keeping RH or not is what his job hinges on, I'd be looking for a new job. I hope winning the right way is as a more important factor in his evaluation, especially the first few years as he builds the program, than simply winning is.

UDFLIES 04-27-2012 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer (Post 266967)
His job is not on the line and he already has 2 schollies yet to be filled. If keeping RH or not is what his job hinges on, I'd be looking for a new job. I hope winning the right way is as a more important factor in his evaluation, especially the first few years as he builds the program, than simply winning is.

Every college coaches job is on the line! If Archie can't turn this into a perennial NCAA tourny team he could get fired. Plain and simple.

Are there really people who would rather have Ralph hill on the team than a sibert, Taylor, LeVert, or a different higher rated recruit we could get next year? If so then please don't complain about the NIT or losing at X every year
Posted via Mobile Device

springborofan 04-27-2012 08:15 PM

The 13th player on your bench will not factor in whether you are going to win or lose. If he does, then you've already failed as a coach because you didn't recruit players high enough to be in the top 8 or 9 that have separated themselves from the rest of the pack. That still leaves room for a specialist a couple of development players and maybe a transfer...

T-Bone 84 04-27-2012 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDFLIES (Post 266963)
My point is Archie's job is on the line and I don't "lose respect" for him wanting more talented players.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yes, but I think it's important to note that Archie's job is not on the line this year.

UD (the school and the Faithful) tends to give its coaches a longer leash than a lot of places when it comes to winning. OP got us in the NCAA in his last year, BG followed than up the next year and then didn't make it back for 5 years, but you didn't start hearing a lot of "Off with his head!" talk until BG didn't repeat the 2009 NCAA appearance in 2010, despite only losing 1 player from the '09 squad.

I think the Faithful are expecting a 2012-13 season where we're On The Bubble, but probably in The Dance as somewhere between a 10 & 12 seed. An NIT bid would be tolerable for 1 more year (given all the new faces that will need to mesh), but an NCAA bid would need to follow in 2013-14. That said, as long as he doesn't do something incredibly stupid or morally repugnant, Arch's job won't really be on the line until 2014-15 or 2015-16, when the program should have progressed beyond 22-14 records and 1st round NIT exits. IMHO, it won't be on the line for at least the next year or 2, and 1 scholarship for the next 2 years won't make a rat's tail's worth of difference in that regard.

Flyer 86 04-27-2012 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer (Post 266967)
His job is not on the line and he already has 2 schollies yet to be filled. If keeping RH or not is what his job hinges on, I'd be looking for a new job. I hope winning the right way is as a more important factor in his evaluation, especially the first few years as he builds the program, than simply winning is.

I think it means
That archie is close on Taylor or Sibert, and if he is then PT for Ralph just went into the dumpster. Give archie credit until we hear otherwise.

If he has a stud or two lined up to commit, Ralph has a decision to stay and be benchrider or to leave. Thats what im getting out of this.

TommyGola 04-27-2012 08:22 PM

I tend to agree with Marysville Flyer on this one. I hope we don't get into the habit of terminating scholarships for young people who are performing well in the classroom but only moderately well in their sport. Now, if Archie simply told him that playing time will be very limited, if any at all, then I actually applaud Archie for being honest with the young man. Then Ralph will have to make the decision as to whether or not he wants to stick around to only be a practice player. If there is a third option, that is that the university will be substituting an academic scholarship for a basketball scholarship, then I think I can accept that. I don't know the rules, but I doubt if a player on academic scholarship can "walk on" the basketball team. So UD will still be offering Ralph a high-quality education with an academic scholarship. I don't see anything that would violate our traditionally strong ethics with that move.

San Diego Flyer 04-27-2012 08:25 PM

This subject has taken quite a few turns and spawned a lot of philosophy for a subject where there has been no formal information offered yet other than tweetsville.

FlyerFanatic08 04-27-2012 08:27 PM

i'll say this, i wouldn't expect this to happen much often if at all after this. archie is now fully recruiting his guys, i couldn't see him recruiting a player and then cutting him loose unless it was the player who made the decision.

FlyingArrow 04-27-2012 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 (Post 266961)
From reading between all the lines, IMHO, it sounds like Ralph was told either:
(a) that he'd have little-to-no PT for the next 2 years (given our projected 3/4 depth situation for the next 2 years), but that we'd honor his athletic scholarship, or
(b) that his athletic scholarship was being pulled, but UD would find a way to let him keep going to school (probably tuition- and board-free) in Engineering.

I hadn't thought about (b) being an option. If that's the case, I'd be okay with that. I don't think UD owes Ralph playing time or even a spot on the team, necessarily. But when he committed to Dayton, Dayton (implicitly) offered him a degree. I know it's technically a one-year, renewable scholarship, but pulling the scholarship because a player didn't pan out has not been and should not be Dayton's way. As long as the free-education end of the deal is held up, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But cutting loose a guy who is doing everything the right way is not something Dayton should do.

I guess I didn't think about this option because even if you have a player on "academic" scholarship, it still counts against your 13. But if the student isn't a player at all, I guess you could give them a scholarship and it wouldn't count.

FlyingArrow 04-27-2012 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer (Post 266974)
This subject has taken quite a few turns and spawned a lot of philosophy for a subject where there has been no formal information offered yet other than tweetsville.

Yeah, it'd be pretty funny if Ralph's next tweet was about getting back together with his girlfriend.

DallasFlyer 04-27-2012 08:36 PM

I am not sold that it is worth using a scholarship on Sibert. But if Ralph is transferring, and UD has 3 open again, then I think he is worth it. Did Sibert end up visiting?

FlyerFanatic08 04-27-2012 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DallasFlyer (Post 266979)
I am not sold that it is worth using a scholarship on Sibert. But if Ralph is transferring, and UD has 3 open again, then I think he is worth it. Did Sibert end up visiting?

think someone mentioned in the recruits thread they heard sibert was visiting today

rudytooty 04-27-2012 09:22 PM

From the sound of the tweets, he has a decision to make. Pretty sure he already knew he wouldnt be playing much, so unless you're in denial, Archie told him to get out. If you want to be a big time program, you can't afford a charity scholarship. I applaud Archie for making the tough call.

anthonycharles 04-27-2012 09:25 PM

I don't buy into the whole "win at all costs" philosophy and believe there is a right way to do things. I'd be very disappointed if Ralph's scholarship was pulled. So we lose a recruit and Ralph sits the next two years, will that really cost a NCAA tourney birth? If so, maybe Archie isn't our guy. We may never know the whole story, but count me as another who would lose a great deal of respect for Archie if it turns out the scholly was pulled.

The tweet that says something to the effect that "I'm mad about the situation I was put in" lends me to think Archie told Ralph you won't be playing the next 2 years. At least, I hope that's the case.

Flyer 86 04-27-2012 09:26 PM

i doubt it rudy. he isn't telling anyone to get out.

Just laying cards on the table. There's a huge difference!

Buster Goode 04-27-2012 09:32 PM

I heard he was asked to change his jersey number from 50 to 21....

flyerfanatic86 04-27-2012 09:53 PM

Why don't we reserve judgment on all parties until we actually have an idea of what is/isn't happening? Today Ralph is still a Flyer, after all.

Marysville Flyer 04-27-2012 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 (Post 266989)
Why don't we reserve judgment on all parties until we actually have an idea of what is/isn't happening? Today Ralph is still a Flyer, after all.

He clearly isn't upset about his milk being out of date. His mom is quoted in the newspaper so this isn't his girlfriend. Something is clearly going on in regards to RH and UD.

Given that and given his 'not his choice' tweet, it is totally acceptable to give an opinion, especially when you preface your comments with IF THIS or IF THAT when offering an opinion.

jack72 04-27-2012 10:33 PM

Maybe Ralph went to Archie and said he was thinking of transferring, so Archie helped him with his decision. Sort of like the guy out interviewing so the company cans him and of course he gets upset and says, how can they do this to me, it should be my choice.

cj 04-27-2012 11:23 PM

So RH is the 13th player on the bench. He decides to leave. Who will be the 12th and 13th scholarship players next year and the year after that. Will this be the new modus operandi? Every team has a 12 and 13 sitting on the end of the bench. There are plenty of kids willing to be the bench warmers in return for a good education and if RH is willing to do that then he should be able to do just that.

UD Sam 04-28-2012 02:00 AM

I am confident that Archie did not pull Ralph's scholarship, but let him know that he wouldn't get much playing time this year - which I think is preferable to keeping him on the bench all season with Ralph getting more disappointed and frustrated each game he didn't play. I also suspect that Archie may have told him that if he preferred to leave the team, he would be offered an academic scholarship.....leaving the decision up to him. Chances of Ralph playing next year are slim based on our abundance of forwards.

In one of Ralph's tweets, he did say "Don't feel sorry tho...in retrospect I'm glad for the honesty".

Fan4allUDSports 04-28-2012 07:07 AM

Something that I wonder is if the scholarship wouldn't be renewed next year(i.e. 2013-14). Yes that makes things different, but I don't see Archie or any coach not continuing a scholarship on what seems to be a good kid if he still has some to use and will not need the ship. I think 2013-14 might be the year that they had the heart to heart about and was trying to be very open about the next two years. Will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

UDEE79 04-28-2012 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UD Sam (Post 267004)
...I also suspect that Archie may have told him that if he preferred to leave the team, he would be offered an academic scholarship....

Can he promise an academic scholarship? Is that something that is commonly done in these situations?

Flyer 86 04-28-2012 08:17 AM

just llook at the larry brown thread. he says to his starting point guard you're probably not going to play much or at all.

that throws it back to the player and how they want to handle their future.


Larry Brown's next words shortly after the player takes this is. Now, IF you decide to move on, we will help you find another college to play at.

that is part of a responsible coach's job for him and his staff.

UDBrian 04-28-2012 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UD Sam (Post 267004)
In one of Ralph's tweets, he did say "Don't feel sorry tho...in retrospect I'm glad for the honesty".

Ralph seems to be a high character guy based upon that comment. I wish him luck in either case.

ud69 04-28-2012 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDEE79 (Post 267006)
Can he promise an academic scholarship? Is that something that is commonly done in these situations?

Don't think so. I think a recruited athlete would be counted against the scholarship limit regardless of the type of scholarship - academic or athletic. Otherwise, schools could easily get around the scholarship limits. Now if that athlete is no longer on the team but just going to classes? Not sure.

T-Bone 84 04-28-2012 10:40 AM

Re an academic scholarship, if Ralph's a good enough student, I'm sure the U could find some money in that budget to carve-out some aid. And, I'm sure the U could also find a way to carve-out enough aid of all sorts to keep Ralph at UD, given the circumstances.

Re getting something other than an athletic scholarship & still being on the team, I have to believe Greg Kohls got some sort of academic scholarship when he was a walk-on, because he was honored as a "scholar-athlete", and he was in Pre-Med. I'm not saying that's what was offered to Ralph, and I'm not saying he would take it if offered - I'm just saying it could be a possibility.

Alberto Strasse 04-28-2012 11:33 AM

Impact?
 
What impact, if any, does this have on UD's complaince with NCAA graduation rate standards?

longtimefan 04-28-2012 11:42 AM

It used to be that if you were a "recruitable athlete" you would count as one of the 13 scholarship players even if on an academic scholarship. I assume that is still the rule. Kohls was probably not considered to be a recruitable athlete so he could be on an academic scholarship and still be on the team as a walk-on. And I would think if Ralph left the team he could be given an academic scholarship.

UDDoug 04-28-2012 12:25 PM

The recruitable athlete and academic scholarship rules apply to people on the basketball roster. The school can offer academic aid to any nonathlete they want. The kid just can't play basketball. Read the SMU article. E eryone of the players Larry Brown cut still have a full ride to SMU. They just won't be on the basketball team. Even as a walk on.

I suspect that is the choice being referred to. Keep a full ride at UD and limit your hoops to intramural. Or go elsewhere to play basketball intercollegiately. Ralph appears to have a choice as to where he wants to go to school and if he is ready to end his basketball career.

And let's just say I have no problem with what SMU is doing. You aren't good enough to play hoops for us, but we made a commitment to you and your family to provide you an education on our dime and we are going to honor that commitment.
Posted via Mobile Device

San Diego Flyer 04-28-2012 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDDoug (Post 267017)
I suspect that is the choice being referred to. Keep a full ride at UD and limit your hoops to intramural. Or go elsewhere to play basketball intercollegiately.

Could he play D1 elsewhere immediately without sitting out a year?

longtimefan 04-28-2012 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer (Post 267021)
Could he play D1 elsewhere immediately without sitting out a year?

No...

UDDoug 04-28-2012 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan (Post 267023)
No...

I believe that is right. And something patently unfair. You should be eligible to transfer and play immediately if your athletic scholarship is not going to be renewed.

San Diego Flyer 04-28-2012 06:39 PM

In the possible case of Ralph, that rule would seem to be unfair. But consider all the head games that could be played by players who simply want to move and don't want to sit a year. Maybe the way the rule is now is the lesser of evils. There are a bunch of them that would lay down on the team just to get their exit pass---like a kid and his meddling dad might do. Force the coach into an exit decision which he would make for the good of the rest of the team. Then get rewarded by going to a team of his choice and play immediately.

CE80 04-28-2012 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UD Sam (Post 267004)
I am confident that Archie did not pull Ralph's scholarship, but let him know that he wouldn't get much playing time this year - which I think is preferable to keeping him on the bench all season with Ralph getting more disappointed and frustrated each game he didn't play. I also suspect that Archie may have told him that if he preferred to leave the team, he would be offered an academic scholarship.....leaving the decision up to him. Chances of Ralph playing next year are slim based on our abundance of forwards.

In one of Ralph's tweets, he did say "Don't feel sorry tho...in retrospect I'm glad for the honesty".

My bet is that what UD Sam layed out is what happened and that would be a really tough decision for kid to make. I am glad he has a level headed mother to help him decide. I wish them them well.

FlyingArrow 04-28-2012 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDDoug (Post 267017)
I suspect that is the choice being referred to. Keep a full ride at UD and limit your hoops to intramural. Or go elsewhere to play basketball intercollegiately. Ralph appears to have a choice as to where he wants to go to school and if he is ready to end his basketball career.

I hope that's the choice. If that's the "industry standard", that's a good thing. Pulling a kid's financial support is what I would have objected to.

shapanud 04-29-2012 09:57 AM

Flyerhoops.net is reporting that Hill will transfer

http://dayton.rivals.com/barrier_noe...tid=&mid=&rid=

San Diego Flyer 04-29-2012 10:08 AM

Certainly another indicator. I look at Matt as a credible source but still leaves a lot of unanswered questions that probably won't be clarified until Ralph and/or his mom speaks. UD announcement might be sanitized when it is finally released.

priceg75 04-29-2012 10:27 AM

So, why are we up in arms about this, but weren't about the other transfers in the past? Just because the kid was on Twitter?

I hate to say it, but Ralph wasn't going to be a major contributor for us, ever. If he wants to actually PLAY BALL, he needs to move on. He seems like a fantastic kid, but if we had a roster full of fantastic kids at his talent level, we'd be battling Fordham for last place every year.

Tony T 71 04-29-2012 11:00 AM

When I coached HS basketball I always told any seniors that weren't going to play, before the season, so they could decide if they wanted to still be on the team or could get a job or play in a rec or church league.

I thought it was only fair for them to know. About half remained on the team which was fine because that showed a committment to the team.
I also talked to their parents so everybody understood the situation.

I hope that Archie did something similar to this and would be disappointed if he is just "releasing" Ralph.

I've gotta believe there is more to this story than we are hearing. Mr. Hack from the ddn was all over Archie today insinuating that Archie wants to win at all costs and if kids graduate so be it:whiteflag:

rollo 04-29-2012 11:20 AM

Do any of you honestly believe that Archie called Ralph in and told him to pack his bags, essentially 'firing' him?

You don't get to be head coach by making impulsive and potentially embarrassing (for UD) decisions...Archie's been groomed for this job by his dad and numerous other Head Coaches, he knows how to play the game...

IMHO this thread is all about nothing.

LI Flyer 04-29-2012 11:53 AM

Your argument seems to be logical. I truly believe the coach was just being honest and forthright.

TommyGola 04-29-2012 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by priceg75 (Post 267068)
So, why are we up in arms about this, but weren't about the other transfers in the past? Just because the kid was on Twitter?

I hate to say it, but Ralph wasn't going to be a major contributor for us, ever. If he wants to actually PLAY BALL, he needs to move on. He seems like a fantastic kid, but if we had a roster full of fantastic kids at his talent level, we'd be battling Fordham for last place every year.

I don't think anyone is "up in arms" over the transfer of Ralph Hill. I actually thought it might have occurred at the end of last season. What Flyer fans are concerned with in regard to Ralph is whether or not his athletic scholarship were terminated. We don't know that yet, but probably will know in due time. If indeed his athletic scholarship were terminated, as opposed to merely being informed of his very limited playing time, then that's what many, if not most Flyer fans find to be uncharacteristic of the university. Alternatively, if he were offered an academic scholarship to finish his degree and no longer be on the team, then I think most of us would find that an acceptable solution. Again, we don't know what he was offered or what happened, but it does appear likely he will transfer. He has been a loyal player and I wish him nothing but the best in his athletic and academic ventures.

San Diego Flyer 04-29-2012 12:20 PM

It's a discussion of ethics basically
 
I wouldn't say the thread is totally about nothing, but some posters sure have run away with comments without a shred of facts. The philosophical positions are interesting.

Most of it has to do with how the "execution of non-renewal of basketball scholarships" is handled such that the university and the student athlete mutually accept the change without embarrassment to the U and athlete. There is a wide spectrum of opinion on what is "right and just" for the parties--financially, academically, and athletically. A spectrum that is faced by probably 10 % of the basketball programs every season.

A lot of the same emotion was expressed with Calipari/Kentucky, SDSU/Fisher, Gillespi/Texas Tech, and now Brown/SMU, and APPARENTLY Dayton/Miller.

Obviously, the quality of person that Ralph Hill is, is a big factor. I don't recall this intensity when Staten was not renewed.

UDDoug 04-29-2012 12:37 PM

Rollo, I do think it is likely Archie called Ralph in and fired him. But I don't think it was impulsive and sudden and without others knowing and approving. And if it was the SMU model I ha e no issue with it.
Posted via Mobile Device

UDDoug 04-29-2012 12:40 PM

Tony, my sons high school has seniors who get cut. Both in baseball and in basketball. They know that's a possibility going in and know where they are projected on the depth chart. They also know that seniors getting no playing will not happen. So get yourself in the rotation or get cut.
Posted via Mobile Device

Marysville Flyer 04-29-2012 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer (Post 267079)
I wouldn't say the thread is totally about nothing, but some posters sure have run away with comments without a shred of facts. The philosophical positions are interesting.

Most of it has to do with how the "execution of non-renewal of basketball scholarships" is handled such that the university and the student athlete mutually accept the change without embarrassment to the U and athlete. There is a wide spectrum of opinion on what is "right and just" for the parties--financially, academically, and athletically. A spectrum that is faced by probably 10 % of the basketball programs every season.

A lot of the same emotion was expressed with Calipari/Kentucky, SDSU/Fisher, Gillespi/Texas Tech, and now Brown/SMU, and APPARENTLY Dayton/Miller.

Obviously, the quality of person that Ralph Hill is, is a big factor. I don't recall this intensity when Staten was not renewed.

OK so it is being reported that RH is leaving and he tweets that it wasn't his choice. He didn't rant, and in fact was very level-headed about things given the emotional nature of this and the fact that he is only 20 years old.

The 'Fact' is, this situation is nothing like the JS situation.

The 'Fact' is that this could be a huge thing IF, IF, IF it wasn't handled properly as it could change the nature of this program and some of us aren't willing to sell our souls to the devil for the sake of wins.

The 'Fact' is, we will never have all the facts so we will have make a judgement based on what we do see and hear.

The 'Fact' is that those that think this results in more wins will believe the best about AM and the conspiracy theorists will believe the worst occured.

Finally, the 'Fact' is, this is the off-season, this is news, and this is a message board and exactly the kind of thing that gets discussed in the off-season.

Unless AM comes out and says that he kicked RH off because he wasn't good enough (which I agree he would never do even if it were true), I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now but will watch very closely from here on out for repeats of the same.

I do not want to support a team that puts wins ahead of good kids. If UD ever turns into that kind of program, I will not continue to follow. Right or wrong, that is my stance. I have criticized other programs for doing things wrong - I can't turn a blind eye IF my team ever turns into that kind of program.

axehandle 04-29-2012 12:52 PM

A few years ago, the company that I was working for told a friend of mine that they were offering a generous package for him to retire early. He was also told they could not guarantee what would happen if he stayed. He took the package and retired. Now retiring wasn't in his plans at that time, in fact he would have chosen to retire a few years later. Well when certain facts are presented, you often make a change that you were not planning. I think this probably the case here. I would guess that RH was told the situation and was recommended to transfer. Perhaps he was not cut from the team, but a strong recommendation was enough for him to make up his mind.

UDFLIES 04-29-2012 01:15 PM

I do not want to support a team that puts wins ahead of good kids. If UD ever turns into that kind of program, I will not continue to follow. Right or wrong, that is my stance. I have criticized other programs for doing things wrong - I can't turn a blind eye IF my team ever turns into that kind of program.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it is just me...but I do not believe it is "wrong" for a team to let a good kid go if he simply isnt good enough. None of this is anything personal to ralph..archie isnt letting ralph go because he doesn't like him as a person..ralph just simply is not good enough at basketball to have one of the 13 basketball scholarships at the university of dayton.

There are going to be players at the end of the bench that dont get playing time on every team, but the coach wants those players to be as talented as possible because they practice against the starters every day and practicing against higher quality players really elevates the abilities of an athlete. (Just ask Josh Harrelson from kentucky two years ago)

NCkevi 04-29-2012 01:40 PM

If we are going to start taking shortcuts (trimming the roster by asking players to transfer and recruiting more academic at-risk players), I'm moving up my expectations and we should make at least a sweet 16 run by 2014!

rollo 04-29-2012 02:01 PM

one step at a time....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NCkevi (Post 267089)
If we are going to start taking shortcuts (trimming the roster by asking players to transfer and recruiting more academic at-risk players), I'm moving up my expectations and we should make at least a sweet 16 run by 2014!

Considering we aren't even close, I'll settle for a top 4 finish in the A10 regular season...:D

Big D 04-29-2012 02:39 PM

This isn't something that Archie is just starting to do at UD. All schools, including UD show players the door. It's sometimes due to the player being trouble (IE: Staten and Plummer), but it is usually done because a kid isn't cutting it on the court. The only thing sad here is that some of you haven't figured that out before now. Does anyone seriously think James Cripe wanted to leave UD just so he could play 1 season at Northern Kentucky?

College B-Ball Fan 04-29-2012 03:26 PM

Totally Different Situation
 
Didn't Cripe graduate from UD-----and moved to NKU when it was thought that he'd return thus using another "year of his 4 years of NCAA eligibility"? This kid wanted to be at UD, accepted his "role" as an end of the bench player, was in good standing both academically and with his ongoing studies in chem engineering! Further more, he had previously expressed (when this issue arose after his freshman season) that he would love to have more PT----he was OK with staying on the team despite the lack of PT!

I hope Archie didn't force him out----OR make it "sound" like his life as a basketball player would suck so much if he stayed------that Ralph ultimately felt he had no choice and "had" to go! I guess that maybe we'll find out more soon!

FlyingArrow 04-29-2012 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by priceg75 (Post 267068)
So, why are we up in arms about this, but weren't about the other transfers in the past? Just because the kid was on Twitter?

Sort of. With Twitter, we have more details... this appears to be a situation where he is forced out. We didn't know details about previous transfers.

The outcry is the possibility that he'd lose the financial support for his education. If he received an academic scholarship at UD as an option, I don't think many people would object to what's going on.

I don't know Stephen Thomas' situation, but I imagine he left because he wanted playing time. If he was forced out, I'd feel the same way about his transfer.

I don't know if Cripe wanted to leave or not, but he had his degree - I don't think UD owed him another year.

The others generally left because of discipline reasons or just general unhappiness.

Sit_Down_Digger 04-29-2012 04:07 PM

"I do not want to support a team that puts wins ahead of good kids. If UD ever turns into that kind of program, I will not continue to follow. Right or wrong, that is my stance. I have criticized other programs for doing things wrong - I can't turn a blind eye IF my team ever turns into that kind of program."

Sorry Marysville Flyer but UD just turned into that kind of program.

TA111 04-29-2012 04:11 PM

This happens every year on every major basketball program. Ralph was told with Benson back and with The 2 bigs coming in Ralph would see no time next year. This is the reality of college sports.

LI Flyer 04-29-2012 04:15 PM

Patience
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sit_Down_Digger (Post 267098)
"I do not want to support a team that puts wins ahead of good kids. If UD ever turns into that kind of program, I will not continue to follow. Right or wrong, that is my stance. I have criticized other programs for doing things wrong - I can't turn a blind eye IF my team ever turns into that kind of program."

Sorry Marysville Flyer but UD just turned into that kind of program.

FACTS! FACTS! FACTS! - At this point in time we simply don't know all the facts. Any judgement (either way) is nothing more then conjecture. Since most of us are used to waiting (for: a top three A-10 finish, an A-10 Tournament Championship, a second round victory in the NCAA tournament) why can't we wait until all the facts are in. In a short time we will know more about the circumstances surrounding this event.

UDan71 04-29-2012 04:24 PM

Feeling sad to see RH go
 
I don't know about any of you, but I feel a sense of sadness that Ralph's situation has come to this. I view him as a member of the UD basketball family, and, as such, he holds a special place for me. I'm sure it had to be very disappointing/discouraging for him to ride the bench so much over this season and last year. He probably had great expectations when he first arrived at UD. First BG totally ignored him, then AM only went to him as a last resort.

I will give the coaches the credit to think that they will play the people they think will help them win. Apparently, RH didn't show enough in practice for two years to earn much playing time on his own merits. That is disappointing.

I was one of the fans (season ticket-holder down somewhat near the UD bench) that would often yell for Ralph or yell encouragement when he did get in. That brief spell of playing time he received after Josh went down was encouraging at first, but then progressively dwindled as the season went on. Thought his career at UD might have turned the corner at first then, but I guess it wasn't meant to be.

If he doesn't possess the talent or skills at a level to earn playing time, he is probably better off to find another program where he can play - if that's what he wants. Saying that, if he wants to remain at UD as a student and earn his engineering degree from here, I certainly hope and pray that UD does the honorable thing and keeps him on a full ride the rest of the way. He deserves that and UD needs to show that caliber of character and ethics. It's the right thing to do.

Ralph, thanks for your contributions to the program and being the class young man you apparently are. God bless you and your family.

longtimefan 04-29-2012 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sit_Down_Digger (Post 267098)
"I do not want to support a team that puts wins ahead of good kids. If UD ever turns into that kind of program, I will not continue to follow. Right or wrong, that is my stance. I have criticized other programs for doing things wrong - I can't turn a blind eye IF my team ever turns into that kind of program."

Sorry Marysville Flyer but UD just turned into that kind of program.

I guess you were in the room when Archie talked to Ralph, and you must know for a fact that Ralph was not offered an academic scholarship.

longtimefan 04-29-2012 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big D (Post 267091)
Does anyone seriously think James Cripe wanted to leave UD just so he could play 1 season at Northern Kentucky?

Do you know for a fact that he didn't? He had graduated, and maybe he was simply tired of sitting on the bench.

San Diego Flyer 04-29-2012 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer (Post 267084)
OK so it is being reported that RH is leaving and he tweets that it wasn't his choice. He didn't rant, and in fact was very level-headed about things given the emotional nature of this and the fact that he is only 20 years old.

The 'Fact' is, this situation is nothing like the JS situation.

The 'Fact' is that this could be a huge thing IF, IF, IF it wasn't handled properly as it could change the nature of this program and some of us aren't willing to sell our souls to the devil for the sake of wins.

The 'Fact' is, we will never have all the facts so we will have make a judgement based on what we do see and hear.

The 'Fact' is that those that think this results in more wins will believe the best about AM and the conspiracy theorists will believe the worst occured.

Finally, the 'Fact' is, this is the off-season, this is news, and this is a message board and exactly the kind of thing that gets discussed in the off-season.

Unless AM comes out and says that he kicked RH off because he wasn't good enough (which I agree he would never do even if it were true), I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now but will watch very closely from here on out for repeats of the same.

I do not want to support a team that puts wins ahead of good kids. If UD ever turns into that kind of program, I will not continue to follow. Right or wrong, that is my stance. I have criticized other programs for doing things wrong - I can't turn a blind eye IF my team ever turns into that kind of program.

This kind of emotion is exactly why they don't share the facts with fans.

bcross 04-29-2012 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big D (Post 267091)
This isn't something that Archie is just starting to do at UD. All schools, including UD show players the door. It's sometimes due to the player being trouble (IE: Staten and Plummer), but it is usually done because a kid isn't cutting it on the court. The only thing sad here is that some of you haven't figured that out before now. Does anyone seriously think James Cripe wanted to leave UD just so he could play 1 season at Northern Kentucky?

Exactly. I think the best example is with Cordiero. Our biggest need for the 2008-2009 season was a PG with only London Warren and Stephen Thomas returning, but no scholarships available. Cordeiro then decides to transfer and four days later Rob Lowery is on campus for a visit. Amazing how these things happen to "work" out.

San Diego Flyer 04-29-2012 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCkevi (Post 267089)
If we are going to start taking shortcuts (trimming the roster by asking players to transfer and recruiting more academic at-risk players), I'm moving up my expectations and we should make at least a sweet 16 run by 2014!

Given the apparent agressiveness of Archie, I would be shocked if that isn't exactly what he and his staff are targeting. No joke. No smiley face.


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