UDPride Discussion Forums    
     

Go Back   UDPride Discussion Forums > OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION > Off Topic Gibberish

» Log in
User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
» Featured Ads
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:07 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Different points of view...

Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post
I knew of a multi millionaire in boston who said that he would not contribute toward his kid's education. he said he worked his way through college and expected his kids to do the same. He said that if they had a free ride they would waste it and if they worked their way through they would take it far more seriously because IT WASN'T OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY. On graduation day he bought them a brand new car, whatever they wanted. I not sure if a lamborghini was one of the options though.
...everyone has an opinion on this matter.

My opinion was that I wanted my kids to work on academics while in college. It was/is my firm belief that holding a job while in school is detrimental. That's an opinion, I remind Priders.

My kids did have summer jobs, of course. And the money they earned was used for everyday college exxpenses; but I picked up the entire tab for the college costs...and it was a dilly.

Both took advantage of their opportunity....both graduated with honors....one went on to earn a PhD....and both are now VPs at their respective companies, doing better than their dad ever did. So, for our family things worked out pretty well. No doubt some luck played a part.
Reply With Quote
Sponsor
  #102  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:59 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Some numbers...

UD tells us that over 90% of its 7300 undergraduates receive aid...and that it awards $92 million in scholarships (not loans).

Assuming that "over 90%" means about 92%,....that averages about $13,750per student for the ~ 6700 students that receive scholarship money.

Given its new rates, a year at UD cost about $47,750, which includes ~$3000 for misc expenses. So, the cost for the "average" student is approximately $34,000.

That's not chicken feed. Of course, these are averages....some students pay quite a bit less/more than $34K.

UD points out that among the thirty largest Catholic universities, the cost of attending UD ranks 22nd.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:19 PM
CE80's Avatar
CE80 CE80 is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,394
Thanks: 1,165
Thanked 1,487 Times in 786 Posts
CE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond repute
No way around it. Unless you are an elite student getting major scholarship money, college is expensive everywhere. More so at a private school. There are ways to cut some, but it still is expensive.

Enroll wisely my friends.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:45 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Sources of the $92 million...

UD refers to the sources of its $92 million in scholarships as "endowed and institutionally funded".

UD's endowment is roughly $400 million....and in today's climate it can't be earning a lot. I presume "institutionally funded" refers to funds derived from UD's income stream.

I know what that means at some colleges, probably UD too. It means a transfer of funds from families that can more easily afford to pay to those that cannot....with the university serving as the conduit or transfer agent.

I know that when my kids were in college they both had friends that were getting close to a free ride, while their dad was paying 100% of sticker price, meaning he was paying for his kids and a fraction of the cost of someone elses.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:07 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 8,185
Thanks: 622
Thanked 5,680 Times in 1,913 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
UD points out that among the thirty largest Catholic universities, the cost of attending UD ranks 22nd.
I hate when universities use these analogies and comparisons. Its like measuring your benevolence against a room filled with Charles Manson, The Night Stalker, Ted Bundy, and John Wayne Gacy.

Just because everyone else is completely out of their gourd on price, doesn't mean I find comfort in the fact that my university is in the bottom 1/3 of that price point.

They are all out of control, overpriced, underwhelming options for developing career skills in a particular field that turns into a career.

Say you wanted to be a sports therapist. Would you rather spend $50,000 a year at UD taking 15hrs of classes a week -- half of which have nothing to do with sports medicine -- or would you rather go out and find a certified, experienced sports therapist and hire him or her for $50,000 a year to teach you one-on-one every single day for 8-10hrs a day where you are their sole and undivided attention?

After 4 years of sole apprenticeship working 8-10-12hrs a day with a dedicated coach/teacher, you'd come out on the back end knowing 20x more than you did had you spent the same amount of money in college. You'd be taking field trips every other day to sports medicine facilities and hospitals and care centers learning on the fly.

When you can hire someone as your own personal dedicated teacher/coach for less than you can go to college for a year and share the same person with 30 other kids in class for half to one-third the instruction time every week, you have to wonder if college is even remotely cost and time efficient.
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Chris R For This Totally Excellent Post:
xubrew (06-18-2012)
  #106  
Old 04-06-2012, 11:10 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
True, but,...

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I hate when universities use these analogies and comparisons. Its like measuring your benevolence against a room filled with Charles Manson, The Night Stalker, Ted Bundy, and John Wayne Gacy.

Just because everyone else is completely out of their gourd on price, doesn't mean I find comfort in the fact that my university is in the bottom 1/3 of that price point.

They are all out of control, overpriced, underwhelming options for developing career skills in a particular field that turns into a career.

Say you wanted to be a sports therapist. Would you rather spend $50,000 a year at UD taking 15hrs of classes a week -- half of which have nothing to do with sports medicine -- or would you rather go out and find a certified, experienced sports therapist and hire him or her for $50,000 a year to teach you one-on-one every single day for 8-10hrs a day where you are their sole and undivided attention?

After 4 years of sole apprenticeship working 8-10-12hrs a day with a dedicated coach/teacher, you'd come out on the back end knowing 20x more than you did had you spent the same amount of money in college. You'd be taking field trips every other day to sports medicine facilities and hospitals and care centers learning on the fly.

When you can hire someone as your own personal dedicated teacher/coach for less than you can go to college for a year and share the same person with 30 other kids in class for half to one-third the instruction time every week, you have to wonder if college is even remotely cost and time efficient.

....there is a difference between being educated and being trained.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to UACFlyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
UDBaby (04-10-2012)
  #107  
Old 04-06-2012, 11:39 PM
UDEE79's Avatar
UDEE79 UDEE79 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Beavercreek Ohio
Posts: 1,862
Thanks: 1,396
Thanked 1,144 Times in 430 Posts
UDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
....there is a difference between being educated and being trained.
My father always said engineers are educated and physicians are trained
__________________
It's a great day to be a Flyer
Reply With Quote
3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to UDEE79 For This Totally Excellent Post:
CE80 (04-07-2012), DetroitFlyer (04-07-2012), rollo (04-07-2012)
  #108  
Old 04-07-2012, 05:14 PM
Glen Clark Glen Clark is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Between Kroger & Esther Price
Posts: 3,713
Thanks: 3,249
Thanked 2,275 Times in 1,065 Posts
Glen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
KY out of state - $18,740
UD net after typical scholarship - $18,000 +/-
OSU in state -$9,735
OSU out of state - $24,630
Northern Kentucky charges Ohio residents Kentucky's in-state tuition rate,
Eastern Michigan charges Ohio residents Michigan's in-state tuition rate.
Both those states offer lower in-state rates than Ohio.

__________________
The person who confesses ignorance shows it once; the person who conceals it shows it many times
- Japanese proverb
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 04-15-2012, 12:17 AM
UD Sam UD Sam is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North of Dayton
Posts: 1,290
Thanks: 7,315
Thanked 1,053 Times in 472 Posts
UD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond reputeUD Sam has a reputation beyond repute
There was an interesting article in the DDN a week ago that listed bonuses paid by Ohio colleges that totaled 32 million. Of course, OSU was in the lead with 25.6 million in bonuses paid. 5 clinical professors and Matta, Tressel received ~ 2 million each.

All colleges listed increased their bonus payments in 2011 compared to 2010. Could this be a reason that tuition continues to increase?

Ohio colleges increase in bonus payments in 2011 compared to 2010:

OSU 137%
UC 57.5%
WSU 10.9%
Miami U 2.7%
Sinclair 2.3%
Central State 0%
Clark State 20%
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:24 AM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,643
Thanks: 22
Thanked 2,058 Times in 1,196 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
Considering that 32 million is basically a rounding error in the state wide higher education budget I doubt it is much of a factor. Properly administered bonuses should go up (and down) a lot. In years when targets and goals aren't met they should be minimal or zero. And the next year when they are met you get 4 fold increases.

Bonuses also are viewed by many as "extra" pay. They aren't. It is just a variable piece of compensation but still a piece of regular compensation. At non CEO levels they were often spread to lower ranks in lieu of raises or to supplement reduced raises. And to differentiate compensation between higher and lower performer. Base pay often isn't that different between two engineers at similar position levels. But one who completes all projects on time and on budget might get his 20% bonus and the other doesn't. Without those pay might be 10% higher for both.
Posted via Mobile Device
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:47 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Depends on the kids....

Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post
I knew of a multi millionaire in boston who said that he would not contribute toward his kid's education. he said he worked his way through college and expected his kids to do the same. He said that if they had a free ride they would waste it and if they worked their way through they would take it far more seriously because IT WASN'T OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY. On graduation day he bought them a brand new car, whatever they wanted. I not sure if a lamborghini was one of the options though.
...by the time a kid is finishing HS his/her parents have a good read on their offspring. It never occurred to me for a second that my kids might not take college seriously.....they were responsible toward their schoolwork in HS; why would college change that? And, they were quite aware of the expense, which was less than it is today.

These stories about the wealthy making their kids pay for college "so they appreciate it" make for good press. The truth of the matter may well be that the wealthy parents are quite sure that their kids will bag it in college....that's why they won't foot the bill.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 04-21-2012, 01:15 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Expect the debacle of college loans to become another political football in the months ahead. Instead of tackling the absolute cost of a college education, we're left with pols angling for a political edge over what the interest rate on the loans should be...ugh.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...2D06.DTL&tsp=1
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Bat'71 For This Totally Excellent Post:
TD Flyer (04-22-2012)
  #113  
Old 04-24-2012, 10:25 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
It appears that colleges and universities try the old bait-and-switch routine with prospective students in an on-going effort to hide the true cost of a college education. This little gem of an article points out that Academia has it's own cadre of lobbyists in Washington to shut down reform of their practices or any effort to bring some price discipline and transparency to the process of selecting a school. It ain't just the big, bad corporate/industry honchos in there pitching to lawmakers, but also our esteemed educators in the Ivory Tower. The rise in tuition, fees, room and board and other costs over the past fifteen years is scandalous and, if it were virtually any other group perpetrating this, it would probably be cause for a major investigation resulting in possible charges of collusion and fraud.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...at-s-debt.html
Reply With Quote
3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Bat'71 For This Totally Excellent Post:
TD Flyer (04-24-2012), UD Sam (04-24-2012), xubrew (06-18-2012)
  #114  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:59 PM
CE80's Avatar
CE80 CE80 is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,394
Thanks: 1,165
Thanked 1,487 Times in 786 Posts
CE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
It appears that colleges and universities try the old bait-and-switch routine with prospective students in an on-going effort to hide the true cost of a college education. This little gem of an article points out that Academia has it's own cadre of lobbyists in Washington to shut down reform of their practices or any effort to bring some price discipline and transparency to the process of selecting a school. It ain't just the big, bad corporate/industry honchos in there pitching to lawmakers, but also our esteemed educators in the Ivory Tower. The rise in tuition, fees, room and board and other costs over the past fifteen years is scandalous and, if it were virtually any other group perpetrating this, it would probably be cause for a major investigation resulting in possible charges of collusion and fraud.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...at-s-debt.html
UD fully participates in that game. I don't understand why, but they insist on filling out the FAFSA form in order to get $500/semester for books even when the student/parents know they will not quailfy for anything more.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to CE80 For This Totally Excellent Post:
College B-Ball Fan (03-24-2013)
  #115  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:03 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
The politics of student loan debt comes to the fore with everybody acquiescing; in a highly charged political year this is to be expected. The price tag on this isn't too steep, but it speaks of the larger issue concerning the overall cost of college and the entrapment of students with large unpaid loan balances.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/47157777
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:47 PM
ClevelandFlyer05's Avatar
ClevelandFlyer05 ClevelandFlyer05 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,579
Thanks: 682
Thanked 390 Times in 239 Posts
ClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud of
I hate to say it, but if a high school student/parent were asking me for advice today about college decisions, I'd have a hard time recommending that they go to UD or any other second-tier private institution (or out-of-state school) unless they were receiving a significant amount (say, at least 70%) in scholarships and/or grants.

I think the best option for a large chunk of high school grads looking to go to college is to spend the first two years at a community college living at home (if that's an option).
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 04-25-2012, 10:23 PM
Glen Clark Glen Clark is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Between Kroger & Esther Price
Posts: 3,713
Thanks: 3,249
Thanked 2,275 Times in 1,065 Posts
Glen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
I hate to say it, but if a high school student/parent were asking me for advice today about college decisions, I'd have a hard time recommending that they go to UD or any other second-tier private institution (or out-of-state school) unless they were receiving a significant amount (say, at least 70%) in scholarships and/or grants.

I think the best option for a large chunk of high school grads looking to go to college is to spend the first two years at a community college living at home (if that's an option).
That works at our house.

___________________
Whether your glass is half empty or half full, you still have more to drink.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 05-01-2012, 09:53 AM
CE80's Avatar
CE80 CE80 is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,394
Thanks: 1,165
Thanked 1,487 Times in 786 Posts
CE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond repute
A little perspective on ACT scores

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
UD Doug - I can't speak too much to KY state schools. I know that in state tuition is about the same as OH. KY is more generous to out of state students than OH.

I do take exception to how you classify a 30 ACT student. That is well beyond good. According to CollegeBoard.org, only 18% of incoming UD students have an ACT over 30. I don't know what year the data is from so there may be a year or so lag. I speak from experience and a 30 ACT can get a little money at OSU and at a school like Bowling Green, can get one more.
Based upon the most recent (April 14) ACT

A 32 in math is in the top 97%.

A 29 in english is in the top 91%.

I stand by my previous comment - a composite ACT of 30 is very good. Definitely top 10%, maybe even closer to top 5%. With a score like that, there is some scholarship money at OH state schools. More at some (Kent, Bowling Green) than others (OSU).
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 05-01-2012, 10:09 AM
Sea Bass Sea Bass is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 6,698
Thanks: 305
Thanked 3,250 Times in 1,699 Posts
Sea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond repute
One thing I can safely say is that most colleges/majors are WAY overpriced. All the federal money flowing in has simply driven up costs making it less affordable for most and overpriced for everyone.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Sea Bass For This Totally Excellent Post:
Bat'71 (05-02-2012)
  #120  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:05 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
It seems that with the staggering amount of student loan debt outstanding, more and more people are beginning to take notice and speak out. This is an issue that apparently won't go away (nor should it) and that deserves more scrutiny. Today colleges and universities get paid up-front for the educational product (and lifestyle) they're providing, while students get stuck with the tab down the road regardless of the "value" of the education they receive...this will have to change and the sooner the better! http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...p5qbKpoFxUt4hI
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Bat'71 For This Totally Excellent Post:
TD Flyer (05-31-2012), xubrew (06-18-2012)
  #121  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:35 AM
TD Flyer TD Flyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 258
Thanks: 320
Thanked 128 Times in 35 Posts
TD Flyer has a spectacular aura aboutTD Flyer has a spectacular aura aboutTD Flyer has a spectacular aura about
Agree Bat. In my opinion there is way too much overhead in every school. I went back to my Catholic High school a few years ago, got the grand tour and met many people. I then checked the school's web site and found they had 60 teachers and a support staff of 59 (which does not include cafeteria and maintenance people), for 1400 students. When I attended we had over 2000 students, with a principal, asst principal and three girls in the office. The school seemed to run very well as I recall.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 05-31-2012, 01:22 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Yes, TD, the proliferation of staff, "specialists" and teacher's aides has only increased over the years, while courses such as civics and phys ed have been phased out. The Administrative offices at most schools resemble what you'd expect to see in Government offices. The parochial and other private schools/academies have done a far better job at keeping the lid on expansion of staff functions than their counterparts in public education, but even they have succumbed to pressures to increase ancillary staff. When you move beyond primary/secondary education to the University level, things have really gotten out of hand with an explosion in costs for Administrative staff, specialty restaurants, recreational facilities and grounds maintenance requirements. Then there has been a proliferation in the number of "Majors" offered and , while at first glance this may seem appealing, quite often the quality and rigors of the subject matter have been diluted.

Many would expect that with the vast improvement over the past three decades in computer capabilities, the ease of access to a vast, global font of information through the internet and dedicated lines at University Library systems and telecommunication capabilities, that the depth and quality of a higher education would have vastly improved...alas it seems the opposite is true. Too many kids leave college without the ability to communicate effectively, think outside of a classroom setting or have the requisite skills demanded of the marketplace; yet they're saddled with a mountain of debt that will take many of them years or decades to pay off. Something simply has to give because, as the article alludes to, it's unsustainable.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 05-31-2012, 01:33 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Another article today on the increase in student loan debt over the past decade...it aint pretty and delinquencies are rising. Who knew?
http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/31/news....htm?hpt=hp_t2
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 05-31-2012, 01:36 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Mandates

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
Yes, TD, the proliferation of staff, "specialists" and teacher's aides has only increased over the years, while courses such as civics and phys ed have been phased out. The Administrative offices at most schools resemble what you'd expect to see in Government offices. The parochial and other private schools/academies have done a far better job at keeping the lid on expansion of staff functions than their counterparts in public education, but even they have succumbed to pressures to increase ancillary staff. When you move beyond primary/secondary education to the University level, things have really gotten out of hand with an explosion in costs for Administrative staff, specialty restaurants, recreational facilities and grounds maintenance requirements. Then there has been a proliferation in the number of "Majors" offered and , while at first glance this may seem appealing, quite often the quality and rigors of the subject matter have been diluted.

Many would expect that with the vast improvement over the past three decades in computer capabilities, the ease of access to a vast, global font of information through the internet and dedicated lines at University Library systems and telecommunication capabilities, that the depth and quality of a higher education would have vastly improved...alas it seems the opposite is true. Too many kids leave college without the ability to communicate effectively, think outside of a classroom setting or have the requisite skills demanded of the marketplace; yet they're saddled with a mountain of debt that will take many of them years or decades to pay off. Something simply has to give because, as the article alludes to, it's unsustainable.
In our town (population ~ 50,000), no fewer than half of the teachers are engaged with special-ed,...as mandated by law. My sister teaches in a southwestern state having a large percentage of Spanish-speaking residents. The public schools in that state are required to conduct all teachers conference with parents in Spanish if the parents request that.....with the interpreter provided by the school.

Re bi-lingual America, I heard a pundit on cable mention that no other country in history "chose" to become bi-lingual. Of course, many countries are multi-lingual, reflecting their historical evolution.

In North America, Quebec is bi-lingual, again reflecting its historical evolution...and, of course, living with many "issues" as a result. But in America, people came here speaking every language on the planet...and learned English PDQ....until now.

What a dreadful mistake we have made.
Reply With Quote
4 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to UACFlyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
rollo (05-31-2012), UD Sam (05-31-2012), UDEE79 (05-31-2012), xubrew (06-18-2012)
  #125  
Old 05-31-2012, 08:39 PM
ClevelandFlyer05's Avatar
ClevelandFlyer05 ClevelandFlyer05 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,579
Thanks: 682
Thanked 390 Times in 239 Posts
ClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud of
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
In our town (population ~ 50,000), no fewer than half of the teachers are engaged with special-ed,...as mandated by law. My sister teaches in a southwestern state having a large percentage of Spanish-speaking residents. The public schools in that state are required to conduct all teachers conference with parents in Spanish if the parents request that.....with the interpreter provided by the school.

Re bi-lingual America, I heard a pundit on cable mention that no other country in history "chose" to become bi-lingual. Of course, many countries are multi-lingual, reflecting their historical evolution.

In North America, Quebec is bi-lingual, again reflecting its historical evolution...and, of course, living with many "issues" as a result. But in America, people came here speaking every language on the planet...and learned English PDQ....until now.

What a dreadful mistake we have made.
Way off-topic, but a few thoughts:

I think that English should be our national language, but I do wonder about the Constitutionality of instituting such a law on the Federal level, which would be easiest and most effective way to fix the above problem. Many of the world's separatist movements are based around language differences (Quebec as mentioned above, also Belgium and a few others I believe). Language differences causes division that we just don't need.

In regards to special education, that's a delicate subject. There's little debate that a very large chunk of public education resources go towards special education (almost always by mandate). What to do about that, or whether even anything should be done, is up for debate.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 06-01-2012, 09:05 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
In a perfect world with unlimited resources, all the pet projects of the Educational Establishment would be undertaken, fully staffed and equipped and adequately funded. Not only that, but we'd actually be able to get some positive, measurable results out of these expenditures. All too often it's the teachers that get the blame for student underachievement, when the root cause is often a lack of effort on the student's part and the bureaucracy and heavy hand of government.

I may be mistaken, but I thought that ESL courses had been pretty much phased out because the parents of kids enrolled in these classes objected to it and it was shown to be ineffective and even detrimental to the kids' ability to progress. As for Special Ed, perhaps a review would be in order to determine if the monies invested are well spent, if things could be done more efficiently or if a lot of kids are being classified incorrectly. As UAC's example highlighted, there sure seems to have been an explosion in the number of kids enrolled in Special Ed in recent years. It appears that things just seemed to work better in El-Hi education when it was under local control and before the Feds started poking their all-knowing noses into it and began mandating the implementation of various and sundried programs from on-high. Instead of using a light touch to correct some of the perceived ills at schools across the country, the Feds (as is their wont) jumped in with both feet and stated mucking about.

Unfortunately, the failure of many secondary schools to provide an adequate education to teenagers has had a negative effect on college costs as well. Many state universities have to provide remedial classwork for incoming Freshman that are ill prepared for college course work. This is a disgrace on at least two fronts; how does a kid graduate from a college prep curriculum, get accepted into a college and then need to spend additional monies to get the education he/she should have gotten in high school? Now, granted I'm an Old F*rt, but I don't ever recall remedial studies as being an option when I was at UD. Heck, I wouldn't have gotten out of High School (let alone been accepted at UD), if I wasn't proficient enough to handle entry level college course work.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 06-01-2012, 09:33 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Political correctness....

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
In a perfect world with unlimited resources, all the pet projects of the Educational Establishment would be undertaken, fully staffed and equipped and adequately funded. Not only that, but we'd actually be able to get some positive, measurable results out of these expenditures. All too often it's the teachers that get the blame for student underachievement, when the root cause is often a lack of effort on the student's part and the bureaucracy and heavy hand of government.

I may be mistaken, but I thought that ESL courses had been pretty much phased out because the parents of kids enrolled in these classes objected to it and it was shown to be ineffective and even detrimental to the kids' ability to progress. As for Special Ed, perhaps a review would be in order to determine if the monies invested are well spent, if things could be done more efficiently or if a lot of kids are being classified incorrectly. As UAC's example highlighted, there sure seems to have been an explosion in the number of kids enrolled in Special Ed in recent years. It appears that things just seemed to work better in El-Hi education when it was under local control and before the Feds started poking their all-knowing noses into it and began mandating the implementation of various and sundried programs from on-high. Instead of using a light touch to correct some of the perceived ills at schools across the country, the Feds (as is their wont) jumped in with both feet and stated mucking about.

Unfortunately, the failure of many secondary schools to provide an adequate education to teenagers has had a negative effect on college costs as well. Many state universities have to provide remedial classwork for incoming Freshman that are ill prepared for college course work. This is a disgrace on at least two fronts; how does a kid graduate from a college prep curriculum, get accepted into a college and then need to spend additional monies to get the education he/she should have gotten in high school? Now, granted I'm an Old F*rt, but I don't ever recall remedial studies as being an option when I was at UD. Heck, I wouldn't have gotten out of High School (let alone been accepted at UD), if I wasn't proficient enough to handle entry level college course work.
The poor performance of schools is an issue throughout much of the country. But, the truth is that suburban schools with 90+% white students are doing just fine. City schools and those with high minority populations are the disaster...even though the amount spent per student in those schools is the highest by far.

A few weeks ago the political cartoonist for the Hartford Courant commented in his own personal blog that "the problem in Hartford schools is not the teachers or the facilities, it's the students". That's all he said. Because of the "racial inferrence, he was suspended from his job for a week without pay".

Now, of course, any thinking person knows he is 100% correct....the minority students usually are being reaised in single family homes, often by teenage mothers. They arrive at the doorstep of the public school system at age 5 having a vocabulary about 1/3 that of white students, little or no discipline, by the tens of thousands speaking little or no English.....and what's the problem?.....poor teachers and/or facilities.

Good grief!
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 06-01-2012, 11:26 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Well, UAC, the Hartford Courant political cartoonist you mentioned, seems to have inadvertently run afoul of liberal orthodoxy and the PC police. Maybe he can take some cold comfort in the fact that he has joined the ranks of the late Senator Danial Patrick Moynihan and Thomas Sowell, who recently published an opinion piece on the subject: http://townhall.com/columnists/thoma...hetoric/page/2 Since there appears to be a whole industry built up around "advocacy groups" and government bureaucracies dedicated to dealing with grievances, we'll be condemned to fight the same ideological battles over and over again, while the kids continue to suffer. Meanwhile, if classroom teachers dare speak out about the ddifficulties thay have with students, they'll be charged with "blaming the victim". Good grief, is right!
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 06-01-2012, 01:24 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pumping Iron at the RoyalRecPlex
Posts: 6,411
Thanks: 5,378
Thanked 4,034 Times in 2,038 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
Many state universities have to provide remedial classwork for incoming Freshman that are ill prepared for college course work. This is a disgrace on at least two fronts; how does a kid graduate from a college prep curriculum, get accepted into a college and then need to spend additional monies to get the education he/she should have gotten in high school?
My wife is a math tutor at Sinclair and deals with dozens of fresh HS graduates from C'ville, Fairmont, DPS, Oakwood (and darn near every other HS in Montgomery County) who can't solve "1/2 + 1/3 = ___ " or "2X = 40, solve for X"... and all of them swear they completed Algebra II in HS.

But it doesn't stop there as some of my UD engineering students are severely lacking common sense math skills...one quiz I gave this semester in a 300 level math class included a 6th grade question/problem that only 3 of my 11 students got right....what was the problem?...you try it:

Your car's odometer is broken and registers 3 miles for every 2 miles driven. It currently says you've driven 48 miles. How many miles have you actually driven?

Good luck!
__________________
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 06-01-2012, 03:31 PM
AustinFlyer's Avatar
AustinFlyer AustinFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 755
Thanks: 359
Thanked 138 Times in 73 Posts
AustinFlyer is just really niceAustinFlyer is just really niceAustinFlyer is just really niceAustinFlyer is just really niceAustinFlyer is just really nice
Wow, that's just nuts, rollo. I read the question a couple times thinking it was a trick.
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 06-01-2012, 04:02 PM
ClevelandFlyer05's Avatar
ClevelandFlyer05 ClevelandFlyer05 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,579
Thanks: 682
Thanked 390 Times in 239 Posts
ClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud of
I'm fairly certain that UD admits (or admitted) students that need extra help and at one time even had some sort of a summer program prior to freshman year to help these students get up to speed. Not sure if that's the still the case.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to ClevelandFlyer05 For This Totally Excellent Post:
UACFlyer (06-01-2012)
  #132  
Old 06-01-2012, 05:14 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Cleveland, now that you mention it, I do recall that UD has admitted students "conditionally", meaning that they would gain full admittance upon the successful completion of some "100" level courses at the University. However, I don't believe these students were given remedial course work, just that they would have to do "C" or better on some entry level "100" courses.

Rollo, maybe your students simply "over thought" the question. Sometimes people, when confronted with something fairly basic, assume a situation has to be more complicated than it actually is and look for more complex answers...I've seen this happen occasionally when people (staff) are over tired or over worked. You're not one of those slave drivers are ya?
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 06-01-2012, 05:53 PM
Glen Clark Glen Clark is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Between Kroger & Esther Price
Posts: 3,713
Thanks: 3,249
Thanked 2,275 Times in 1,065 Posts
Glen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
. . . I may be mistaken, but I thought that ESL courses had been pretty much phased out because the parents of kids enrolled in these classes objected to it and it was shown to be ineffective and even detrimental to the kids' ability to progress. . .
I'm not sure why you would say that, but i'll take an anecdotal story over a sweeping stereotype anytime. Here's a couple:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...ls-782478.html

My wife served on the board of the MVLC until it was dissolved in 2010 due to the loss of corporate sponsorship - though this is precisely the type of human capital corporations should be investing in.

And in yesterday's DDN it was noted that this years co-valedictorians at Belmont High School came to the United States with little or no English: Vanessa Ishimwe fled war-torn Togo four years ago and Daniel Molina spoke no English when he left Oaxaca, Mexico three years ago. Both mastered English thanks to the ESL program at Belmont - in Daniel's own words: "ESL is wonderful and helps immigrants and foreigners. It teaches you to never give up, that you can do it."

And speaking to the thinly veiled racism that passes as discourse here, my son's alma mater - Stivers School for the Arts - is consistently rated one of Ohio's top performing high schools - with a student body evenly split between white and non-white.

_____________________
He who knows does not speak. He who speaks does not know.
Lao Tse - Tao Te Ching
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:04 PM
ClevelandFlyer05's Avatar
ClevelandFlyer05 ClevelandFlyer05 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,579
Thanks: 682
Thanked 390 Times in 239 Posts
ClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud of
Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
I'm not sure why you would say that, but i'll take an anecdotal story over a sweeping stereotype anytime. Here's a couple:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...ls-782478.html

My wife served on the board of the MVLC until it was dissolved in 2010 due to the loss of corporate sponsorship - though this is precisely the type of human capital corporations should be investing in.

And in yesterday's DDN it was noted that this years co-valedictorians at Belmont High School came to the United States with little or no English: Vanessa Ishimwe fled war-torn Togo four years ago and Daniel Molina spoke no English when he left Oaxaca, Mexico three years ago. Both mastered English thanks to the ESL program at Belmont - in Daniel's own words: "ESL is wonderful and helps immigrants and foreigners. It teaches you to never give up, that you can do it."

And speaking to the thinly veiled racism that passes as discourse here, my son's alma mater - Stivers School for the Arts - is consistently rated one of Ohio's top performing high schools - with a student body evenly split between white and non-white.

_____________________
He who knows does not speak. He who speaks does not know.
Lao Tse - Tao Te Ching
I don't think this line of discussion has to be about race and Glen while I respect where you're coming from, I think that this is a conversation that is far too often ignored or marginalized because it's not an easy one to have. However the fact is that there are a lot of parents/families that, for whatever reason, do not emphasize the importance of education with their children, do not get involved in their learning process, and perhaps worst of all are passing along damaging cultural values. A vast majority of these children struggle academically and many bring those values to school making the learning environment toxic for their peers as well. That's not to say it's all their fault, because I have no doubt that it's not easy to focus when you're hungry or tired or whatever other distraction is facing these kids on a daily basis.

Needless to say that are a lot of issues at play here, but one thing that is seemingly consistently overlooked is parental and student accountability in the process. We'll never be tops in the world on international tests (if that's our ultimate goal?) if that issue is not addressed.
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to ClevelandFlyer05 For This Totally Excellent Post:
Bat'71 (06-02-2012), UACFlyer (06-01-2012)
  #135  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:20 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Racism?

Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
And speaking to the thinly veiled racism that passes as discourse here, my son's alma mater - Stivers School for the Arts - is consistently rated one of Ohio's top performing high schools - with a student body evenly split between white and non-white.

_____________________
He who knows does not speak. He who speaks does not know.
Lao Tse - Tao Te Ching
Glen, thinking of addessing the real issue of the generally very poor school performance of our dominant minorities as racism only assures that the problem will never be solved.
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:24 PM
Glen Clark Glen Clark is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Between Kroger & Esther Price
Posts: 3,713
Thanks: 3,249
Thanked 2,275 Times in 1,065 Posts
Glen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond repute
Au contraire

UAC - treating individuals - and their unique circumstances - as statistical groups ensures their specific problems will never be addressed.

_______________________
Being the richest man in the cemetery doesn’t matter to me … Going to bed at night saying we’ve done something wonderful… that’s what matters to me.
- Steve Jobs
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:36 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Individuals, groups...

Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
UAC - treating individuals - and their unique circumstances - as statistical groups ensures their specific problems will never be addressed.

_______________________
Being the richest man in the cemetery doesn’t matter to me … Going to bed at night saying we’ve done something wonderful… that’s what matters to me.
- Steve Jobs
Glen, I could not agree more that each person should be viewed and treated as an individual. And throughout my life that is what I have always done...and that is the way our children were raised.

It is true, however, that the crucial factors that so severely impact the school performance of our dominant minority groups, blacks and hispanics, are not "unique circumstances". Unfortunately, the adverse factors are typical of their "groups".
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 06-02-2012, 09:48 AM
ClevelandFlyer05's Avatar
ClevelandFlyer05 ClevelandFlyer05 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,579
Thanks: 682
Thanked 390 Times in 239 Posts
ClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud ofClevelandFlyer05 has much to be proud of
A few individuals here and there may be able to overcome the odds, but this is not something that is repeatable on a larger scale. It's only once the obstacles are addressed and removed on that larger scale that will we start to see more widespread successes.
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to ClevelandFlyer05 For This Totally Excellent Post:
rollo (06-02-2012), UACFlyer (06-02-2012)
  #139  
Old 06-02-2012, 10:34 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Race has nothing to do with it. Hispanics, last I looked, aren't a "race" but an ethnicity that encompasses a whole range of peoples and cultures. Blacks suffer because discussing the problems that plague the black ghetto is considered "racism"; last time I looked Thomas Sowell is black.

As for ESL. I was going on my recollection of numerous articles written on the subject a few years ago about the struggle of many "Hispanic" parents trying to get their children OUT of mandatory ESL classes in California. It seems that the "educational establishment" there had a vested interest in goosing employment of ESL teachers (and whatever infrastructure that went with them) regardless of whether the parents or kids wanted it. It's somewhat bemusing (but a little tiring) that anytime some hard questions are asked and observations are made (even by Democratic icons like the late Sen. Moynihan) charges of racism are sure to follow much like night follows day. Hoo Boy!
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Bat'71 For This Totally Excellent Post:
rollo (06-02-2012), UACFlyer (06-02-2012)
  #140  
Old 06-02-2012, 11:21 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Sowell

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
Race has nothing to do with it. Hispanics, last I looked, aren't a "race" but an ethnicity that encompasses a whole range of peoples and cultures. Blacks suffer because discussing the problems that plague the black ghetto is considered "racism"; last time I looked Thomas Sowell is black.

As for ESL. I was going on my recollection of numerous articles written on the subject a few years ago about the struggle of many "Hispanic" parents trying to get their children OUT of mandatory ESL classes in California. It seems that the "educational establishment" there had a vested interest in goosing employment of ESL teachers (and whatever infrastructure that went with them) regardless of whether the parents or kids wanted it. It's somewhat bemusing (but a little tiring) that anytime some hard questions are asked and observations are made (even by Democratic icons like the late Sen. Moynihan) charges of racism are sure to follow much like night follows day. Hoo Boy!
Thomas Sowell is a truly remarkable man.

In many of his writings he has emphasized the critical nature of self-defeating black culture....stating that unless/until it changes dramatically there is little hope for black advancement.

Not only is the typical home environment a major factor contributing to poor school performance, but, according to Sowell, in the black culture a kid that tries to do well in school is ridiculed by his peers as "acting white"....Sowell argues that for a black kid to excel in school he/she has to put up with a degree of ostracization that most simply can't deal with.

Thus, according to Sowell, the current climate of black culture is a major factor. Currently we have a black president....obviously a brilliant, well educated guy. If ever there was a person well positioned to address this issue without being accused of racism, it's President Obama. Alas, his mind is on other things. Maybe when he's no longer president....
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 06-10-2012, 09:06 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
According to this Op-Ed piece, it appears that part of the driving force behind cost increases in higher education seems to be linked to the expansion of Administrative Staff at colleges and universities in "politically correct" endeavors, while academic offerings have been cut. The salaries paid for these staff positions is also ludicrous, IMO. At some point, things will need to change (unfortunately, when that actually occurs is anybody's guess.)
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will061012.php3
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 06-10-2012, 09:33 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Exactly!

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
According to this Op-Ed piece, it appears that part of the driving force behind cost increases in higher education seems to be linked to the expansion of Administrative Staff at colleges and universities in "politically correct" endeavors, while academic offerings have been cut. The salaries paid for these staff positions is also ludicrous, IMO. At some point, things will need to change (unfortunately, when that actually occurs is anybody's guess.)
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will061012.php3
Washington Post economist Robert Samuelson wrote a similar article comparing the sub-prime housing bubble to the college education bubble. The Government concluded that all Americans should own their own home...and concluded that all Americans deserve a college eductaion.....something our president has gone out of his way to champion.

The Catholic HS in our town held its gradustion a few days ago,...boasting that of its 180 graduates, 99% will go on to college. Of course, some of those will go to junior colleges and community coleges.....but colleges nonetheless. Trade schools? Are you kidding?

Parents play a role in this as well. College is not trade school. But, in addition to obtaining a liberal education, a kid with a college degree should have learned something that is reasonably useful to a potential employer. High school kids don't know anything. Parents that allow their kids to major in "diversity", "women's studies", "religious studies", etc,....by way of paying for tuition or permitting their kid to be saddled with debt are as responsible as the kids and the schools. Even kids with scientific-sounding degrees such as forestry, geology, floriculture, environmental studies, etc., are practically unemployable.

Fortunately, from reform of public employee union contracts to the cost of education and the resulting debt, there seems to be a groundswell of "recognition" to the effect that it's time for major change. That appears to be a difference between the U.S. and Europe....at least I hope so. Americans aren't good at avoiding big problems..but so far we've been pretty good at fixing them, eventually.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 06-17-2012, 09:18 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
It appears that some things are about to change, at least at Ohio public universities;
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...s-1392325.html What is particularly startling about this story is not just the cost of remedial classes (which may actually be an understatement because the figures most likely only include the "direct" costs of instructors and not the indirect cost of facilities or even books, etc.) but the abject failure of these programs for the students involved.

I've never fully comprehended the rationale for offering remedial classes in college to incoming Freshmen. When did it become commonplace to accept students who aren't capable of handling entry level, intro courses on the first day of classes. If additional prep work is needed, it's a pretty good indication that the kids who need them aren't college-ready from day one. The need for remedial learning has a direct link to the failure of the El-Hi educational establishment to adequately prepare these kids for college and the onus of getting these kids up to speed (if they want to obtain a college degree) should be placed firmly at the doorstep of local school districts. In the "old" days, kids whose educational background was found lacking for college, were required to go to "Prep" school as post-grads to shore up their qualifications (much as some athletes now do before admittance) and ensure that they could handle the course load. IMO, the local school districts should be held accountable for any of their graduates who are ill prepared for whatever endeavor the granting of their diploma is supposed to represent.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 06-17-2012, 02:27 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Also, retention rate...

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
It appears that some things are about to change, at least at Ohio public universities;
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...s-1392325.html What is particularly startling about this story is not just the cost of remedial classes (which may actually be an understatement because the figures most likely only include the "direct" costs of instructors and not the indirect cost of facilities or even books, etc.) but the abject failure of these programs for the students involved.

I've never fully comprehended the rationale for offering remedial classes in college to incoming Freshmen. When did it become commonplace to accept students who aren't capable of handling entry level, intro courses on the first day of classes. If additional prep work is needed, it's a pretty good indication that the kids who need them aren't college-ready from day one. The need for remedial learning has a direct link to the failure of the El-Hi educational establishment to adequately prepare these kids for college and the onus of getting these kids up to speed (if they want to obtain a college degree) should be placed firmly at the doorstep of local school districts. In the "old" days, kids whose educational background was found lacking for college, were required to go to "Prep" school as post-grads to shore up their qualifications (much as some athletes now do before admittance) and ensure that they could handle the course load. IMO, the local school districts should be held accountable for any of their graduates who are ill prepared for whatever endeavor the granting of their diploma is supposed to represent.
U.S. News considers retention rate in its rankings.....the higher the rate, the better. UD's is about 85-88%, typically. So, colleges have an incentive to "retain" freshmen that don't belong in college. One way to aid that process is to "dumb-down" college.

In my opinion, today's college is not nearly tough enough.....every stat I've seen showing averagre study hours per week reveals a steady decline,...to a current level about half of what it was 20 years ago.

And far too may HS kids go to college. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics anyalyzes job requirements...and claims that no more than 25-30% of all jobs in the U.S. require any education beyond HS...yet we send a far higher percentage to college. Now college is not trade school.....but with the cost today it's about time to take a look at who goes to college.

Further, along with the "everybody should go to college" mentality is the stigma of not going to college, learning a trade. The trades require intelligence and training...but not college.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 06-17-2012, 06:01 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
You're correct on all counts, UAC. Somehow, college has become some sort of status symbol and it's priced accordingly. There are plenty of worthwhile trades that kids can learn to apply that are in good demand across the country (e.g. electricians, plumbers, welders, stone masons, etc.), but somehow kids with potential in these areas don't seem to find encouragement in the educational system to move in that direction. I'm not sure if it's intellectual snobbery, elitism or what, but the kids and our economy suffer from it.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 06-18-2012, 10:40 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Education issues seem to be coming to the fore these days. An article in today's NYP addresses the issue of how the Educational establishment still looks to close traditional vocational schools despite a need for skilled tradesmen in growth sectors. Meanwhile the cost and failure of remedial studies continues.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...YPKYjPZd5hP8iI
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 06-19-2012, 12:59 AM
xubrew xubrew is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,220
Thanks: 221
Thanked 1,238 Times in 592 Posts
xubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond reputexubrew has a reputation beyond repute
Lots of great information, insight and opinion in this thread.

This issue is perplexing to me. I haven't delved as deeply into it as some people on this thread have, but when faced with the question of whether or not the value of an American college education is worth the cost, my own experiences are leading me to believe that it's not.

Again, without having delved as deeply into it, it seems to me that college has become a checkpoint more than anything else. It's a credential that enables you to move on to what's next in your life. Whether or not students learn anything isn't important. They just need that credential/degree. If you don't have that credential, then no one will consider your actual abilities. To me, it seems that a lot of kids graduate from college without having learned much of anything.

Being one of the few soccer fans in the city of Cincinnati (and Dayton when I was a grad student there), one of the things I did get out of college was that it was easy for me to meet and become friends with the international students. I'm still friends with them, and I still go and visit them. I'm sorry, but there is simply no denying it. Generally speaking, young people in Europe and Asia are smarter than young people in the United States. It's rare to come across someone who cannot speak multiple languages. In the USA, I'd say half the population can only speak one language. In Germany and Spain, young people over there seemed to know more about American history than many of the college students I work with who have lived in the United States their entire lives. They are better at math. They are better at Science. On top of that, they seem to have an interest in what's going on in the world and can actually give an informed assessment of it.

You know what these people who collectively come across as far more educated pay for college?? Virtually nothing. That's what's perplexing to me. College in the United States costs as much as a house, and in general students come out the other end with less of an education than people in other parts of the world who get it for free. So, like I said earlier, is education worth what it costs?? As a credential, maybe. As far as the actual value and the actual skills acquired, probably not. Not when other people in the world are getting more of it for almost no cost at all.

College is different overseas. American universities, especially private universities, are huge when it comes to the community aspect. People in their fifties still love where they went to school. In Europe, that's not the case. It is, however, far less expensive. For some Americans it is probably worth looking into. Most Americans will have to pay more than what someone in that country would have to pay, but it's still far less than what it costs to go to a private school or out of state schools in America. In Germany, at least a few years ago, Americans could go to college....for free.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_1...free-overseas/

Like I said, it's a different experience, and you won't develop that strong communal bond that you do over here, but when it comes to the actual quality and usefulness of the education, it's probably better. And it's free.

Like I've said, I haven't delved into all the reasons, but it seems pretty clear that we're doing something wrong.

Last edited by xubrew; 06-19-2012 at 01:05 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 06-19-2012, 09:12 AM
CE80's Avatar
CE80 CE80 is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,394
Thanks: 1,165
Thanked 1,487 Times in 786 Posts
CE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond repute
I think it depends greatly on what one majors in, in college. I graduated with a degree in civil engineering. When I go out of school, among other things, I could design structural steel buildings. In my first job, I was paid to design structures. I could not have done it without that education. I am sure the same can be said for accountants, teachers and a number of other majors.

It is why I have stressed to my 2 kids that they need to major in something that employers will pay you for what you learned specifically in school.
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 07-17-2012, 10:33 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
UD student debt....

The Dayton Business Journal has a short piece on student debt. For 2010 graduating UD students had an average debt of ~$35K.

Wow!
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 07-19-2012, 09:07 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
That borders on being a scandalous amount for a newly minted graduate to be saddled with, UAC. If a graduate has a $35K student debt obligation out of the gate and decides to pay it off over a 10 year period, (at a 3% or a 6% interest rate), he/she would have annual payments of $4,100 and $4,755, respectively. What's worse, there are many kids who wind up with hefty student loan balances and still don't graduate. Obviously there is a bubble in the cost/value placed on a college degree these days and it'll be pretty ugly when that bursts as well.
Reply With Quote
  #151  
Old 07-19-2012, 01:14 PM
DetroitFlyer's Avatar
DetroitFlyer DetroitFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,467
Thanks: 2,631
Thanked 1,218 Times in 685 Posts
DetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
About the price of a

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
The Dayton Business Journal has a short piece on student debt. For 2010 graduating UD students had an average debt of ~$35K.

Wow!
new car. If that graduate can find a job, $35K should be manageable. No reason with a good job that this debt cannot be gone in 5 years. But, many graduates cannot find jobs so they go to graduate school and pile on more debt. Granted some graduate programs pay the student, (Engineering), many times, but kids going for a graphics design masters degree could easily borrow $160,000.00 more to cover tuition and living expenses in an expensive city. Now you are looking at $2K to $3K a month for 10 years IF you can get a job after earning the masters.... It could very well take an entire career, (25 to 30 years), to pay back that amount.... This is going to get UGLY sometime in the not so distant future....
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 07-19-2012, 01:43 PM
ud69's Avatar
ud69 ud69 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,428
Thanks: 1,051
Thanked 2,368 Times in 1,039 Posts
ud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond reputeud69 has a reputation beyond repute
I don't find 35K to be outrageous. I know jobs can be tough - particularly in some humanities fields. What's the average salary coming out of college? 50K or so? One should be able to pay it back in 3-5 years. 1000/mo or so at low government interest rates. Just put off the new car for a couple of years and keep driving the junker.
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 07-19-2012, 02:05 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
The "system"...

Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Lots of great information, insight and opinion in this thread.

This issue is perplexing to me. I haven't delved as deeply into it as some people on this thread have, but when faced with the question of whether or not the value of an American college education is worth the cost, my own experiences are leading me to believe that it's not.

Again, without having delved as deeply into it, it seems to me that college has become a checkpoint more than anything else. It's a credential that enables you to move on to what's next in your life. Whether or not students learn anything isn't important. They just need that credential/degree. If you don't have that credential, then no one will consider your actual abilities. To me, it seems that a lot of kids graduate from college without having learned much of anything.

Being one of the few soccer fans in the city of Cincinnati (and Dayton when I was a grad student there), one of the things I did get out of college was that it was easy for me to meet and become friends with the international students. I'm still friends with them, and I still go and visit them. I'm sorry, but there is simply no denying it. Generally speaking, young people in Europe and Asia are smarter than young people in the United States. It's rare to come across someone who cannot speak multiple languages. In the USA, I'd say half the population can only speak one language. In Germany and Spain, young people over there seemed to know more about American history than many of the college students I work with who have lived in the United States their entire lives. They are better at math. They are better at Science. On top of that, they seem to have an interest in what's going on in the world and can actually give an informed assessment of it.

You know what these people who collectively come across as far more educated pay for college?? Virtually nothing. That's what's perplexing to me. College in the United States costs as much as a house, and in general students come out the other end with less of an education than people in other parts of the world who get it for free. So, like I said earlier, is education worth what it costs?? As a credential, maybe. As far as the actual value and the actual skills acquired, probably not. Not when other people in the world are getting more of it for almost no cost at all.

College is different overseas. American universities, especially private universities, are huge when it comes to the community aspect. People in their fifties still love where they went to school. In Europe, that's not the case. It is, however, far less expensive. For some Americans it is probably worth looking into. Most Americans will have to pay more than what someone in that country would have to pay, but it's still far less than what it costs to go to a private school or out of state schools in America. In Germany, at least a few years ago, Americans could go to college....for free.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_1...free-overseas/

Like I said, it's a different experience, and you won't develop that strong communal bond that you do over here, but when it comes to the actual quality and usefulness of the education, it's probably better. And it's free.

Like I've said, I haven't delved into all the reasons, but it seems pretty clear that we're doing something wrong.

Interesting comments and opinion, brew.

it is true that U.S. students at all levels from K through C rate poorly compared to other countries. And, we all know how dam* smart Asian and Indian students are. If our best colleges and grad schools didn't have effective quotas there would be only Asian students on campus.

How is it, then, that the U.S. continues to lead the world in just about all signifcant categories? I think the answer is the American system. In spite of our on-going efforts to screw things up, some how the system manages to survive and pull us through.

In the countries these brilliant Asians and Indians live, most people live in poverty that would be unbelievable to Americans. In China it is estimated that over 50 million people live in caves.

We know from experience that the poverty in China and India....home to about 1/3 of all humans....is not because their people lack intelligence or ambition.

What is left as an explanation is the American system.
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 07-20-2012, 10:39 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Depending on one's major, a job with a starting base salary of $50K a year may or may not be in the cards, but the cost of a college education tuition doesn't really vary much from one major to another. But for the purpose of discussion, suppose the lucky grad who finds a job these days gets a salary of $50K; after FICA and Medicare taxes (a combined 9.1% of pretax income), that drops available wages to just over $45K. Take out Federal, state and local taxes (say a combined 15-18%) and net drops to around $38K. If the job requires the employee to pick up some health care expenses, that could further reduce net by another $1K or more per year, so take-home pay comes to about $3K per month. Now toss in the lost of living (i.e. apartment rent, utilities, cell phone, internet and/or cable TV, groceries, car payments, gas, clothing, some entertainment, etc.) and there isn't a lot left over to make your student loan payments.

As mentioned in an earlier Post about the possibility of politics entering into the student loan program, the White House is now urging that Congress allow for the discharge of student loan debt issued by "private lenders" in Bankruptcy proceedings; it seems that once again this Administration shows that cynical political expediency trumps the rule of law and it is more than willing to stand precedent on it's head for political advantage. While it is understandable that steps may need to be taken to ease the repayment burden on those grads that are unemployed (possibly through the deferral of payment schedules or a further subsidized loan rate until employment is attained), to abrogate contracts like this is counterproductive and can have long lasting unintentional consequences. If anything, I'd like to see the colleges and universities that conferred the degrees to their now unemployed graduates be forced to pick up the interest payments on these loans until gainful employment is attained by the grads. Placing more of the burden of the student loan fiasco on those most responsible for it (through the outrageous cost of a college education) would, IMHO, be fitting; it may also force our institutions of higher learning to be more cost conscious and inhibit the constant upward surge in tuition and fees. However, we should all keep in mind that when rules can be changed in the middle of the game, it weakens confidence in our legal and economic system and causes a chilling effect among investors and private enterprise that can needlessly retard capital formation and economic growth.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Bat'71 For This Totally Excellent Post:
DetroitFlyer (07-20-2012)
  #155  
Old 07-20-2012, 10:58 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pumping Iron at the RoyalRecPlex
Posts: 6,411
Thanks: 5,378
Thanked 4,034 Times in 2,038 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
what he said....

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/...ges/56347470/1
__________________
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 07-28-2012, 01:09 AM
Glen Clark Glen Clark is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Between Kroger & Esther Price
Posts: 3,713
Thanks: 3,249
Thanked 2,275 Times in 1,065 Posts
Glen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond reputeGlen Clark has a reputation beyond repute
College loans

Short video on the college loan debacle - and the roll that banks have played in it:

http://www.upworthy.com/how-america-...ment?g=2&c=cp2

___________________
These are not the droids you are looking for . . .
Obi-wan Kenobi - Star Wars
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 08-22-2012, 03:37 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
School starts at UD...

UD's Facebook page has an album of photos of move-in day. Looks like a fun day with all the new students parents, siblings, etc. involved.

There is a photo of a student carrying a brand new (still in the box) 32" flat screen TV.....another showing a dorm room with a large flat screen TV as part of a media center. I guarantee that those TVs in dorm rooms are worth a letter grade, on average, as is owning a car.

At $40K+ a pop, today's college kids aren't being worked nearly hard enough. Time to watch TV?.....play intramural sports? Give me a break! And UD's tells us that a large majority of its students receive aid of some form.

Those kids should be enjoying college...but they also should be working their butts off. Ain't happen`in.
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 08-22-2012, 04:52 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pumping Iron at the RoyalRecPlex
Posts: 6,411
Thanks: 5,378
Thanked 4,034 Times in 2,038 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Funny you say that UAC because I was late getting out of my first class today because one of my engineering students, a transfer, had to stop and tell me how hard the teachers at UD make him work as opposed to his other college. This is his 2nd year at UD and he absolutely loves it...not because of the parties but because of the effort demanded by his professors.

I know what your saying, and I'm certain that there are a lot of UD students who spend more time at the bar or on their backs than their parents want to believe, but you can't apply the lifestyle of some students to all of them...because it's just not true.
__________________
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to rollo For This Totally Excellent Post:
IAFlyer (08-23-2012), UDBaby (08-23-2012)
  #159  
Old 08-22-2012, 11:28 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Understood,....

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Funny you say that UAC because I was late getting out of my first class today because one of my engineering students, a transfer, had to stop and tell me how hard the teachers at UD make him work as opposed to his other college. This is his 2nd year at UD and he absolutely loves it...not because of the parties but because of the effort demanded by his professors.

I know what your saying, and I'm certain that there are a lot of UD students who spend more time at the bar or on their backs than their parents want to believe, but you can't apply the lifestyle of some students to all of them...because it's just not true.
....agree; but too many of them I fear.
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 08-23-2012, 08:35 AM
CE80's Avatar
CE80 CE80 is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,394
Thanks: 1,165
Thanked 1,487 Times in 786 Posts
CE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
UD's Facebook page has an album of photos of move-in day. Looks like a fun day with all the new students parents, siblings, etc. involved.

There is a photo of a student carrying a brand new (still in the box) 32" flat screen TV.....another showing a dorm room with a large flat screen TV as part of a media center. I guarantee that those TVs in dorm rooms are worth a letter grade, on average, as is owning a car.

At $40K+ a pop, today's college kids aren't being worked nearly hard enough. Time to watch TV?.....play intramural sports? Give me a break! And UD's tells us that a large majority of its students receive aid of some form.

Those kids should be enjoying college...but they also should be working their butts off. Ain't happen`in.
Wow. A brand new 32" flat screen still in the box! Do you realize that one can purchase such a tv for $200.

I graduated in '80 with a degree in engineering. I am no genius but did pretty good. I did all my assignments and probably can count on both hands the number of classes I missed over 4 years. However, I watched plenty of Sanford and Son and Hogan's Heros reruns, played a whole lot of quarters and found numerous other ways to goof off. My guess is that things are not a whole lot different today.
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to CE80 For This Totally Excellent Post:
IAFlyer (08-23-2012), UDBaby (08-23-2012)
  #161  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:34 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Maybe, maybe not.

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
My guess is that things are not a whole lot different today.
In the era when I was a student the threat of being "dismissed" for academic shortcomings was very real.....and kids that graduated didn't take 6 years to do it. As I recall, at UD after six years only ~75% have graduated.

U.S. News rankings, which schools take very, very seriously...incl UD,....measure student retention. The higher the retention the better. Thus, there is a motive for schools to ensure that students are "retained",....that and the fact that there is competition for students and their parents tuition money.

These factors provide pressure, maybe subtle pressure, to take it easy on students. We know and understand full well the pressure to go easy on scholarship athletes.....similarly, there are pressures to not make students work too hard.

In my opinion, if you had plenty of time for reruns on TV and intramural "quarters", then engineering at UD was not as tough as when I went through it. For sure, there was no pressure to retain engineering students....as evidenced by being told just about the first day of class to "look left, look right, two of the three of you will not be here at year end". Surely you've heard that one.

In contrast, at freshman orientation Dr. Dan told the students that in four years 90% of you will be here. What he did not say was that in four years about half of you won't be close to having completed degree requirements.

At nearly a quarter of a million dollars, today's college life is far too easy, and may not be worth the investment in many cases....in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 08-23-2012, 01:02 PM
IAFlyer's Avatar
IAFlyer IAFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 2,967
Thanks: 3,718
Thanked 897 Times in 523 Posts
IAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
How can there be more incentive to get more out of the education opportunity? I believe a lot of this comes from the parents.

Example, my daughter is attending Wartburg College in Waverly, IA. Very expensive, 90+% get some sort of aid. She is getting academic, major/minor, and music scholarships. Those scholarships put Wartburg's costs on par with the 3 state schools. She is also adding debt very quickly. She is working to finish in 3 years in order to limit that debt amount.

Many would claim that the access to student loans is a driver of the cost structure. That may or may not be true, but she doesn't go to Wartburg (or UNI, or Iowa, or ISU) without taking on debt. She couldn't borrow from us because we don't have it to lend.

I suspect we will likely be helping her with that debt payment if necessary. We might be able to to that.

What if the education were cheaper like in Europe, unless the student fails to graduate in 5/6 years, then they are saddled with a loan in some amount to reflect the years they wasted of the govt/institution monies.

My friend in KC just took his son to Clark College in MA. His parting words were: "You are ready for this - make it count."
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 08-23-2012, 01:30 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pumping Iron at the RoyalRecPlex
Posts: 6,411
Thanks: 5,378
Thanked 4,034 Times in 2,038 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
one got an 'A'...the other an 'A-'

Originally Posted by IAFlyer View Post
What if the education were cheaper like in Europe, unless the student fails to graduate in 5/6 years, then they are saddled with a loan in some amount to reflect the years they wasted of the govt/institution monies.
Last year I had 2 exchange students from France...their A#1 concern was what it took to get an 'A' in the class. Not understanding their very obsessive concerns over this - and after being met after class by them weekly to discuss thier progress toward that goal - I finally asked them why they keep hounding me.

Their answer was interesting...in France, if you get an 'A' you don't have to repay the loan for the class...if you get a 'B' you pay back some, a 'C' forced you to pay back more and anything lower means you pay back everything.

Interesting concept....and one whose concept I like but application I don't as it promotes taking easy majors/classes as opposed to difficult ones.
__________________
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 08-23-2012, 01:42 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Fact is, many shouldn't go at all...

Originally Posted by IAFlyer View Post
How can there be more incentive to get more out of the education opportunity? I believe a lot of this comes from the parents.

Example, my daughter is attending Wartburg College in Waverly, IA. Very expensive, 90+% get some sort of aid. She is getting academic, major/minor, and music scholarships. Those scholarships put Wartburg's costs on par with the 3 state schools. She is also adding debt very quickly. She is working to finish in 3 years in order to limit that debt amount.

Many would claim that the access to student loans is a driver of the cost structure. That may or may not be true, but she doesn't go to Wartburg (or UNI, or Iowa, or ISU) without taking on debt. She couldn't borrow from us because we don't have it to lend.

I suspect we will likely be helping her with that debt payment if necessary. We might be able to to that.

What if the education were cheaper like in Europe, unless the student fails to graduate in 5/6 years, then they are saddled with a loan in some amount to reflect the years they wasted of the govt/institution monies.

My friend in KC just took his son to Clark College in MA. His parting words were: "You are ready for this - make it count."
The Federal Govt, Bureau of Labor Statistics as I recall, estimates that between 20% and 25% of the jobs in the U.S. require a college education. We graduate a far higher percentage than that,....many of whom cannot get jobs and are saddled with debt and,.....most important,....will not demean themselves taking a job that's "beneath" them. Thus, we have high unemployment among recently minted grads, burdened with debt, who really haven't learned anything useful,.... and a shortage of workers in some technical areas.

Easy access to loans does feed this. And our president very often says how he wants every kid to go to college or have the opportunity to do so. Fact is, every kid should not have the opportunity to do so....unless they can pay for it just like they have to pay for everything else. More of our entitlement mentality...which is slowly killing us.
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 08-23-2012, 01:54 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 8,185
Thanks: 622
Thanked 5,680 Times in 1,913 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
Problem is college degrees have been completely watered down in the last 15-20 years. Everybody has one. It has very little teeth anymore to get you in any doors. Its not because people are getting smarter, its just because more people are walking around with degrees they probably didnt want or need. Many kids are graduating who were never really college material or have the aptitude for professional living, but went anyway because the money was so cheap to secure loans to fund the charade.

I remain convinced that we need less people in college, and more of the right people. The student loan money train is affecting everything and making it unaffordable. When was the last time UD had a 15% off week-long tuition 4th of July sale?

Everybodys degree means less as we graduate more people. A 4-yr undergrad degree is the 1970s equivalent of a HS diploma now. Were I starting out as an 18yr old in 2012, I wouldn't be going to UD. At the very least Id spend 1/10th the cost taking the mickey mouse required courses at Sinclair and transfer in to UD even-steven with every other kid who spent their first two years at UD.

But Im not even sure Id go to college in this day and age. If I want to be a chemical engineer or pharmacist or doctor -- you have little choice. But for most other disciplines, I think mentoring, apprenticeship, and learning a trade on the job is the way to go. Its like fast-tracking the learning process instead of sitting in a classroom all day. And much cheaper.

If college were far more affordable and not taxpayer subsidized, my feelings would be different. Universities have priced themselves out the market in my opinion.

When I graduated in 1997 the average UD class was about $85 if you amortized it down that far based on tuition. Its at least double that now. Say $150 a class for an hour or 90 minutes of instruction. Figure 25 kids in a class. It shouldn't cost $3,750 to each 25 kids for 90 minutes.
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 08-23-2012, 01:57 PM
CE80's Avatar
CE80 CE80 is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,394
Thanks: 1,165
Thanked 1,487 Times in 786 Posts
CE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
In the era when I was a student the threat of being "dismissed" for academic shortcomings was very real.....and kids that graduated didn't take 6 years to do it. As I recall, at UD after six years only ~75% have graduated.

U.S. News rankings, which schools take very, very seriously...incl UD,....measure student retention. The higher the retention the better. Thus, there is a motive for schools to ensure that students are "retained",....that and the fact that there is competition for students and their parents tuition money.

These factors provide pressure, maybe subtle pressure, to take it easy on students. We know and understand full well the pressure to go easy on scholarship athletes.....similarly, there are pressures to not make students work too hard.

In my opinion, if you had plenty of time for reruns on TV and intramural "quarters", then engineering at UD was not as tough as when I went through it. For sure, there was no pressure to retain engineering students....as evidenced by being told just about the first day of class to "look left, look right, two of the three of you will not be here at year end". Surely you've heard that one.

In contrast, at freshman orientation Dr. Dan told the students that in four years 90% of you will be here. What he did not say was that in four years about half of you won't be close to having completed degree requirements.

At nearly a quarter of a million dollars, today's college life is far too easy, and may not be worth the investment in many cases....in my opinion.
Yeah and back in my day we had to walk 5 miles to class in knee 4 foot high snow. I guess calculators are a lot faster than slide rules. How do the statistics reflect the fact that there are more co-op students, more students that take time off to make some money to pay the next semester's tuition, or go part time because they need to work more?

UD has another record year with this year's freshman class. They must be doing something right.
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 08-23-2012, 02:54 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
In other words,...

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
.... But for most other disciplines, I think mentoring, apprenticeship, and learning a trade on the job is the way to go. Its like fast-tracking the learning process instead of sitting in a classroom all day. And much cheaper.
.....you mean along the lines of the way the Germans, Chinese, Japanese et al do it.
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 08-23-2012, 08:53 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Not really thinking about UD specifically, `80,...

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
UD has another record year with this year's freshman class. They must be doing something right.
...even though I made specific reference to UD.

I am immensely proud of UD and think that our administration under DC's leadership has UD on the verge of a "reputation breakout", so to speak.

Reputation is a lagging indicator of reality. That explains why UD's peer assessment score still is quite low in the annual U.S. News rankings, sticking UD at about the #100 spot for some years. This year I expect a bit of a pop since our "selectivity" score should improve quite a bit, based on what the admissions office has told us.

Also, boosting reputation, in my opinion, will be completion of the GE center. That $50+ million buiding cost about twice as much as the most expensive structure ever built on campus. And architecturally it will be special. Snagging a company like GE to occupy space on your campus is no small matter. I think it will be great for UDRI, the school or engineering and UD's reputation generally.

You're right `80.....UD attracting such a large class at times like this bucks the national trend. UD is doing "plenty" right.
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 08-24-2012, 08:31 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Despite the surge in tuition rates at UD over the years, it is more reflective of national trends in higher education generally than anything else. UD, on a relative basis, is still pretty attractive, IMO. Having said that, private universities are at a significant cost disadvantage to State Universities for resident students, but, even taking that into account, the total cost of attaining a degree have simply become ludicrous. The proliferation of grants, scholarships and student loans have helped mask the inexorable rise in the cost of obtaining a degree and helped to shield colleges from an erosion in demand from prospective students due to overpricing of their services. Moreover, there appears to be a societal attitude that if a child is not attending college right after high school, he/she must be somehow intellectually deficient; this helps to make demand for a degree less sensitive to cost (more inelastic) than it would normally be. It is only once a student graduates (or is otherwise separated from the school) and is required to pay off the loans, that the impact of those costs (and accumulated debt) begin to hit home.
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 08-24-2012, 10:36 AM
IAFlyer's Avatar
IAFlyer IAFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 2,967
Thanks: 3,718
Thanked 897 Times in 523 Posts
IAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeIAFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
Despite the surge in tuition rates at UD over the years, it is more reflective of national trends in higher education generally than anything else. UD, on a relative basis, is still pretty attractive, IMO. Having said that, private universities are at a significant cost disadvantage to State Universities for resident students, but, even taking that into account, the total cost of attaining a degree have simply become ludicrous. The proliferation of grants, scholarships and student loans have helped mask the inexorable rise in the cost of obtaining a degree and helped to shield colleges from an erosion in demand from prospective students due to overpricing of their services. Moreover, there appears to be a societal attitude that if a child is not attending college right after high school, he/she must be somehow intellectually deficient; this helps to make demand for a degree less sensitive to cost (more inelastic) than it would normally be. It is only once a student graduates (or is otherwise separated from the school) and is required to pay off the loans, that the impact of those costs (and accumulated debt) begin to hit home.
Though UD (and others) have moved their costs in the same basic percentage increase over the years, it is not reflective of Cost of Living increases, wage increases, etc. in any way, shape, or form.

Why does it cost 400% more to teach kids today than it did 30 years ago? There is something wrong within the system as well.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to IAFlyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
CE80 (08-24-2012)
  #171  
Old 08-24-2012, 11:56 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Re cost,...just look around!

Originally Posted by IAFlyer View Post
Though UD (and others) have moved their costs in the same basic percentage increase over the years, it is not reflective of Cost of Living increases, wage increases, etc. in any way, shape, or form.

Why does it cost 400% more to teach kids today than it did 30 years ago? There is something wrong within the system as well.
The ammenities that today's students (and their parents) expect are incredible compared to years past. Look at UD....the numerous cafeterias (restaurants), the air conditioned dorms, apts, houses, the park-like landscaping, the facilities for intramurals, the RecPlex.....the expenses related entirely to archetectural aesthetics, e.g., the exteriors of college park center, Roesch, Kettering labs, the science center.

We're talking really big bucks...many tens of millions of dollars having nothing to do with education itself. Schools are in competition with one another. A school that doesn't keep up with its peers isn't going to attract the interest of students.

Having said all that...and no longer having the burden of college expenses,... I love it! The fact that UD's campus and facilities look wonderful, better than most others, I think is absolutely great. That along with our ever-improving academic reputation will help propel our U to where it wants to be, needs to be.

Nonetheless, to me, it's no mystery why college costs have increased much faster than the rate of inflation. The college experience is nothing like what it used to be.

(Can't wait until the 2013 U.S. News rankings come out in mid-September. UD makes no secret of the fact that it wants to climb out of its ~ #100 rut and move up the ladder. It's a tough slog, though. To do so you've got to climb over other schools that are not standing still. About the only measure where a school has direct control is student selectivity, i.e., admission rate, class rank of freshmen...areas of focus and improvement at UD.)
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 08-24-2012, 12:20 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
It's not just the peripheral cost of providing resort like amenities to students that has resulted in higher and higher rates of tuition in higher education. The proliferation of Administrative slots (that didn't exist 20 years ago) at virtually all levels and in all Departments of the University (I am speaking in general terms here and not about UD specifically) have added to the cost base. In addition, the salaries and perks provided to Administrators and Department Heads rivals that of any Corporation on the listed exchanges. Unfortunately, our esteemed leaders in Academia want all the perks and privileges of the Private sector with none of the risk. Recession...what recession? Sometimes it seems that the Ivory Tower is about as far removed from economic reality as possible. An article in today's DDN concerning Dr. Gee's travel budget would make the Chairman of IBM blush (http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...-travel/nRJWW/).
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 08-24-2012, 01:07 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Do some numbers, Bat....

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
It's not just the peripheral cost of providing resort like amenities to students that has resulted in higher and higher rates of tuition in higher education. The proliferation of Administrative slots (that didn't exist 20 years ago) at virtually all levels and in all Departments of the University (I am speaking in general terms here and not about UD specifically) have added to the cost base. In addition, the salaries and perks provided to Administrators and Department Heads rivals that of any Corporation on the listed exchanges. Unfortunately, our esteemed leaders in Academia want all the perks and privileges of the Private sector with none of the risk. Recession...what recession? Sometimes it seems that the Ivory Tower is about as far removed from economic reality as possible. An article in today's DDN concerning Dr. Gee's travel budget would make the Chairman of IBM blush (http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...-travel/nRJWW/).
UD is still a bargain compared to its peers,..yet UD's cost has risen faster that the inflation rate.

Suppose UD has 100 administrators that it could easily do without. Assume the average cost of each is $100K per year, incl benefits. That's $10 million a year....or about $1000 per student. Not chicken feed...but a small fraction of the cost of a year at UD. Double the cost to $200K per administrator and the cost per student still is small. UD's budget is about $400 million a year. Knock $40 million a year off that figure and the cost of a year at UD still is very large.

My supposition is that it's not a single thing...it's everything.
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 08-24-2012, 01:10 PM
DetroitFlyer's Avatar
DetroitFlyer DetroitFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,467
Thanks: 2,631
Thanked 1,218 Times in 685 Posts
DetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Just walk around the UD campus today and you can clearly see where the money is going.... I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but today's campus is NOTHING like what I encountered in 1980. I remember paint peeling off of buildings on campus and wondering what I had gotten myself into.... UD's campus is literally as nice as any in the country. Now, you could argue that maybe all that money should have gone into the endowment and scholarships, etc., but it is a balancing act. I mean check out the old NCR building. I was just amazed at the transformation.... Work like this does not come cheap....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg College Park Center.jpg (57.6 KB, 8 views)
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to DetroitFlyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
IAFlyer (08-24-2012), UACFlyer (08-24-2012)
  #175  
Old 08-24-2012, 01:46 PM
CE80's Avatar
CE80 CE80 is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,394
Thanks: 1,165
Thanked 1,487 Times in 786 Posts
CE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
The ammenities that today's students (and their parents) expect are incredible compared to years past. Look at UD....the numerous cafeterias (restaurants), the air conditioned dorms, apts, houses, the park-like landscaping, the facilities for intramurals, the RecPlex.....the expenses related entirely to archetectural aesthetics, e.g., the exteriors of college park center, Roesch, Kettering labs, the science center.

We're talking really big bucks...many tens of millions of dollars having nothing to do with education itself. Schools are in competition with one another. A school that doesn't keep up with its peers isn't going to attract the interest of students.

Having said all that...and no longer having the burden of college expenses,... I love it! The fact that UD's campus and facilities look wonderful, better than most others, I think is absolutely great. That along with our ever-improving academic reputation will help propel our U to where it wants to be, needs to be.

Nonetheless, to me, it's no mystery why college costs have increased much faster than the rate of inflation. The college experience is nothing like what it used to be.

(Can't wait until the 2013 U.S. News rankings come out in mid-September. UD makes no secret of the fact that it wants to climb out of its ~ #100 rut and move up the ladder. It's a tough slog, though. To do so you've got to climb over other schools that are not standing still. About the only measure where a school has direct control is student selectivity, i.e., admission rate, class rank of freshmen...areas of focus and improvement at UD.)
Keeping up with the Jones's hurt quite a few households in the recent years. I hope the same thing doesn't happen when this bubble bursts.
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to CE80 For This Totally Excellent Post:
Glen Clark (08-24-2012), IAFlyer (08-24-2012)
  #176  
Old 08-24-2012, 02:16 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Good point...

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Keeping up with the Jones's hurt quite a few households in the recent years. I hope the same thing doesn't happen when this bubble bursts.
But where you want to be when the music stops is in a strong position. For example, the Ivies have 10x, 20x, 30x as many applicants as they can handle. No matter what happens, they'll be OK, as will other strong schools.

I think Dr. D. is working to position UD in as strong a position as possible.
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 08-24-2012, 05:02 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
At what point did you stop reading my Post and go off on your own tangent, UAC? I didn't reference UD specifically and was discussing the impact of other items (e.g. salaries, superfluous staffing levels, perks of office, travel budgets, etc.) in addition to the "resort like amenities" that impact the cost of a college education. I also mentioned, in a slightly earlier Post, that UD was/is (IMO) still a pretty good value. The point of my latest Post was that IMO the inexorable rise in tuition and fees at the college level relates to the whole zietgeist that permeates higher education today...one that seems far removed from economic reality. When college presidents (such as Dr. Gee) have exorbitant travel budgets and the perks of office are considered essential to the job description, something is amiss. The trappings of office and the staffing levels of Administration functions have gotten out of hand. To ignore that reality or brush it off as being only small potatoes in the scheme of things, misses the point.
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 08-24-2012, 05:25 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Seem a little testy, Bat,...

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
At what point did you stop reading my Post and go off on your own tangent, UAC? I didn't reference UD specifically and was discussing the impact of other items (e.g. salaries, superfluous staffing levels, perks of office, travel budgets, etc.) in addition to the "resort like amenities" that impact the cost of a college education. I also mentioned, in a slightly earlier Post, that UD was/is (IMO) still a pretty good value. The point of my latest Post was that IMO the inexorable rise in tuition and fees at the college level relates to the whole zietgeist that permeates higher education today...one that seems far removed from economic reality. When college presidents (such as Dr. Gee) have exorbitant travel budgets and the perks of office are considered essential to the job description, something is amiss. The trappings of office and the staffing levels of Administration functions have gotten out of hand. To ignore that reality or brush it off as being only small potatoes in the scheme of things, misses the point.
The biggest expense of university administration is people costs. I was using UD as my example, not yours. To me it seemed as if the numbers didn't work out right. That is, I roughed up the annual cost of an unnecessary 100 staff people at a school like UD. The cost figures I came up with seemed rather insignificant. Where did I go wrong while "off on my tangent"?

Maybe I'm not thinking about the matter properly. I invite your correction.
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 09-12-2012, 09:01 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
It appears that the State of Ohio is taking some steps to fundamentally improve it's education model by rewarding schools for graduating students not simply enrolling them:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...college/nR8Sd/. Obviously when over 40% of students system-wide need remedial classes (for which they pay full tuition, yet receive no college credit) and less than 50% graduate, there is something fundamentally wrong with the system that extends back through the El-Hi levels and the process by which kids are accepted into college. When one considers the number of "soft" majors provided in the college curriculum today, the lack of success in graduating students enrolled at our colleges is even more astounding. IMO, for this plan promoted by Governor Kasich (to be spearheaded by Dr. Gee) to be successful (which also includes preparing our young people to fit the needs of the marketplace), colleges will need to tighten admission standards, reduce the number of participants in the "soft" sciences (e.g. social work, ethnic studies, etc.) and promote those programs that can provide students with career opportunities in business, industry and government. Those pursuing degrees in traditional Liberal Arts or in Education should be encouraged to do so, but course requirements should be strengthened to include a more robust curricula that include language arts requirements and mathematics, IMO.

Last edited by Bat'71; 09-12-2012 at 09:04 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 09-24-2012, 06:58 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Great work, if you can get it! Who says you have to work in the Private Sector to make it in America? Meet a member of the new aristocracy: http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...-for-tr/nSGkK/
Reply With Quote
  #181  
Old 10-05-2012, 06:57 PM
Sea Bass Sea Bass is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 6,698
Thanks: 305
Thanked 3,250 Times in 1,699 Posts
Sea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond repute
http://espn.go.com/college-football/...sses-pointless
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 11-04-2012, 08:26 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
I guess you really can rationalize anything. Kudos to the DDN for researching the overindulgence of our intelligentsia (such as it is.)
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...der-gee/nStk2/
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 11-28-2012, 12:39 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Another indication that the "value" of a college edumacation ain't what it used to be and that tuition rates left the realm of reality a loooong time ago.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/49983471
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Bat'71 For This Totally Excellent Post:
Glen Clark (11-29-2012)
  #184  
Old 12-09-2012, 10:29 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
More on the on-going student loan debt bubble. Instead of addressing the issue of "cost" and the need for tuition roll-backs and cost cutting at Universities, politicians seem to focus on how repayments of the debt can be stretched out (or forgiven) to make the process less painful. I'm sure, at some point, the politicians and academicians will try to pin it all on the private sector.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/cbo-...fy-2013-so-far
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 01-16-2013, 11:35 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,798
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,248 Times in 623 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
A "new" twist in how some college students are making ends meet: http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/20...r-baby-schools
In another article on this same subject, one of the NY papers quoted one student as saying that this reflects the need for more student aid. More student aid?...how about some meaningful cost cutting within the Ivory Towers to lower tuitions and fees that have simply gotten out of hand.
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 01-16-2013, 12:40 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Had an interesting experience recently...

My wife and I were invited to the home of a person we did not know....our invite came by way of our connection with a very close mutual friend. The host is a wealthy man, well-known physician in CT's Fairfield County...CT's "gold coast".

The couple has a son who is a senior in HS and is applying to colleges. To my great surprise, one of his choices is UD. The family has a connection to the Dayton area. UD offered the kid $10K...a grant,...not a loan. Now, this is the son of a wealthy physician.

The doc told me that the college costs you see and hear about are what he referred to as the "sticker" price. Every school his son applied to offered him admission at a much lower price than that which was posted.

Seems to me that if schools, incl UD, are doing this for a wealthy doctor's son....the average Joe/Jane gets an even better deal.
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 01-16-2013, 01:22 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,643
Thanks: 22
Thanked 2,058 Times in 1,196 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
The UD website pretty clearly outlines the merit based package. It's determined based on grades and test scores. Family finances aren't considered in those awards.

Then there is need based aid on top. Some nonrepayable, but the bulk of what is offered is repayable or in the form of work study (cafeteria, bookstore, admission office tours, etc).

I'd guess UD is $10K less than the sticker price for the average admitted student. Some pay more, some pay less depending on grades and how well you test.

One thing odd that you note UAC - UD admission notices don't go out until end of January or first week of February for the early decision period. UD is actually one of the last to notify during early admission. Butler's regular admission is only 2 weeks after UD's early admission.

He probably doesn't have a notice of admission with a scholarship amount, more likely that's what they were told to expect based on his transcripts.
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 03-04-2013, 11:28 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pumping Iron at the RoyalRecPlex
Posts: 6,411
Thanks: 5,378
Thanked 4,034 Times in 2,038 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
FWIW....I got an email today stating that

UD has budgeted $12.8M for tuition reimbursement for both employees and their kids to attend UD.
__________________
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 03-04-2013, 12:52 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,643
Thanks: 22
Thanked 2,058 Times in 1,196 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
At one time UD was tuition free for children of UD employees. And UD and XU had a reciprocal arrangement honoring each other's arrangements for employees.

Not sure if they still do that with XU, or if children of employees still attend without paying tuition.
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:31 PM
cj's Avatar
cj cj is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,424
Thanks: 787
Thanked 1,182 Times in 589 Posts
cj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond repute
Children, step-children, spouses all attend tuition free. Room and board is not part of this. It is limited to their first under-graduate degree so a child can't rack up 8 degrees at no cost. There are no masters level classes included. UD is also in a program with over 300 other schools, almost all of them are private schools, in which there is a reciprocity agreement. There is a limit to the number of kids that can take advantage of the reciprocity agreement and it is based on seniority of the employee. The reciprocity is difficult to obtain.
__________________
To be a liberal, you just have to say you care. Bam! That's it. It's the easiest, most gutless choice in the world you can make.
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:43 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pumping Iron at the RoyalRecPlex
Posts: 6,411
Thanks: 5,378
Thanked 4,034 Times in 2,038 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Free to the parent does not mean free to the University, which is why they've budgeted so much money.
__________________
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 03-04-2013, 11:26 PM
AustinFlyer's Avatar
AustinFlyer AustinFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 755
Thanks: 359
Thanked 138 Times in 73 Posts
AustinFlyer is just really niceAustinFlyer is just really niceAustinFlyer is just really niceAustinFlyer is just really niceAustinFlyer is just really nice
How long do you need to be a UD employee before the free tuition kicks in?
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 03-05-2013, 08:33 AM
cj's Avatar
cj cj is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,424
Thanks: 787
Thanked 1,182 Times in 589 Posts
cj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond repute
Two years.
__________________
To be a liberal, you just have to say you care. Bam! That's it. It's the easiest, most gutless choice in the world you can make.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to cj For This Totally Excellent Post:
AustinFlyer (03-05-2013)
  #194  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:25 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pumping Iron at the RoyalRecPlex
Posts: 6,411
Thanks: 5,378
Thanked 4,034 Times in 2,038 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
In UD's never ending quest to become a Top 100 National University, the decision was announced late yeasterday to dissolve the Engineering Technology program. Next year's freshman class will be the last and they will be given 4 years to complete the program.

I'm on the Advisory Board and this announcement came as a total and complete shock to everyone. No specific reasons were stated and none will be given as Dr. Saliba ungracefully backed out of the meeting. When his secretary was asked about his Friday afternoon agenda, she politely said she couldn't reveal it.

Other schools/colleges/Departments are also being scrutinized, but to what extent it was not revealed.

I find the decision to dissolve the program interesting for no other reason than all the graduates have jobs upon graduation, local industry loves the students and hires them as interns/coops regularly and the enrollment has always been strong...over 300 students are currently enrolled. So UD has no shortage of high school students willing to 'buy' their product....by all measurements the product is valuable...yet they want to make it disappear...from a business standpoint does that make sense?? Will Starbucks stop serving Hot Chocolate because the profit margin isn't as high as a grande double latte?

ACT scores were mentioned as a potential reason for the decision, but if that's the case, which I doubt, the typical ACT score from an engineering technology student is undoubtedly higher than that of the typical student in Communications, Education and some Allied Health programs.....who I assume are also under attack.

My job won't be affected, so don't feel sorry for me ()...feel sorry for the kids who want to be engineers and have the ability, desire, talent and MONEY to do so but will now be looking elsewhere because they only got a 25-27 on their ACT.

This is the UD that Curran wants...and for those not paying attention it's not the UD that many students, professors or parents expect.
__________________
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:33 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,018
Thanks: 2,123
Thanked 2,447 Times in 1,467 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Need more information....

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
In UD's never ending quest to become a Top 100 National University, the decision was announced late yeasterday to dissolve the Engineering Technology program. Next year's freshman class will be the last and they will be given 4 years to complete the program.

I'm on the Advisory Board and this announcement came as a total and complete shock to everyone. No specific reasons were stated and none will be given as Dr. Saliba ungracefully backed out of the meeting. When his secretary was asked about his Friday afternoon agenda, she politely said she couldn't reveal it.

Other schools/colleges/Departments are also being scrutinized, but to what extent it was not revealed.

I find the decision to dissolve the program interesting for no other reason than all the graduates have jobs upon graduation, local industry loves the students and hires them as interns/coops regularly and the enrollment has always been strong...over 300 students are currently enrolled. So UD has no shortage of high school students willing to 'buy' their product....by all measurements the product is valuable...yet they want to make it disappear...from a business standpoint does that make sense?? Will Starbucks stop serving Hot Chocolate because the profit margin isn't as high as a grande double latte?

ACT scores were mentioned as a potential reason for the decision, but if that's the case, which I doubt, the typical ACT score from an engineering technology student is undoubtedly higher than that of the typical student in Communications, Education and some Allied Health programs.....who I assume are also under attack.

My job won't be affected, so don't feel sorry for me ()...feel sorry for the kids who want to be engineers and have the ability, desire, talent and MONEY to do so but will now be looking elsewhere because they only got a 25-27 on their ACT.

This is the UD that Curran wants...and for those not paying attention it's not the UD that many students, professors or parents expect.
This is very interesting Rollo. But, you've got to dig up more information.

You know that Dan Curran did not make such a decision on the spur of the moment. And you know enough about Curran and the UD process to understand that the decision process was in the works for a while and has a rational basis.

What we don't have yet is any of the facts.
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 03-23-2013, 01:22 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pumping Iron at the RoyalRecPlex
Posts: 6,411
Thanks: 5,378
Thanked 4,034 Times in 2,038 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
I specifically asked to see the decision making model so I could review the variables and was told matter-of-factly that one doesn't exist...that Saliba made this call on his own and will not be changing his mind.

ACT's and perception...that's what he weighed.

If I can gather facts, I'll pass them on. But I'm not sure there's anything in writing to review nor do I expect Saliba to make his time available for discussion.
__________________
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 03-23-2013, 03:31 PM
CE80's Avatar
CE80 CE80 is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,394
Thanks: 1,165
Thanked 1,487 Times in 786 Posts
CE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond repute
This latest news is really disappointing. I am an engineering grad but had many friends that graduated from engineering technology that could not handle the calculus or other difficult more theoretical courses but they have gone on to very successful careers. I always thought one of the advantages of UD for engineering was having the technology program to fall back on. I wonder if it is the facilities capacity? If the school only has room for so many engineering or technology students maybe they think they can fill all the spots with engineers. I see no reason to at least tell us all the reasoning.
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 03-23-2013, 04:32 PM
DetroitFlyer's Avatar
DetroitFlyer DetroitFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,467
Thanks: 2,631
Thanked 1,218 Times in 685 Posts
DetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Can you major in Engineering Technology in any other top 100 school? I do not know but my guess is "no". When terms like "fall back" are used, I think you have your answer. UD is always fighting the Notre Dame fall back school image so if top 100 or higher is the mission, Engineering Technology gets cut. I guess the hope is that the traditional Engineering programs offset the loss with higher ACT/GPA students. Given the strong application growth it seems reasonable to think that will happen.
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 03-23-2013, 04:37 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pumping Iron at the RoyalRecPlex
Posts: 6,411
Thanks: 5,378
Thanked 4,034 Times in 2,038 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
I don't know if they have engineering technology at top 100 schools but I bet they have General Studies, Recreation and African American Studies.
__________________
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to rollo For This Totally Excellent Post:
DetroitFlyer (03-23-2013)
  #200  
Old 03-23-2013, 04:45 PM
DetroitFlyer's Avatar
DetroitFlyer DetroitFlyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,467
Thanks: 2,631
Thanked 1,218 Times in 685 Posts
DetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeDetroitFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Ah Rollo

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I don't know if they have engineering technology at top 100 schools but I bet they have General Studies, Recreation and African American Studies.
no need to pick on tOSU...! Actually, UD's undergrad Engineering programs have struggled in National rankings. It seems as though the National ranking agencies do not completely understand that I graduated from UD.... Without any information at all, I'm guessing the Dean has been told to improve Engineering's national rankings and has decided that cutting Technology is a good first step.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.1
Sponsor


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement System V2.6 By   Branden

     
 
Copyright 1996-2012 UDPride.com. All Rights Reserved.