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  #101  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:35 PM
UDBrian UDBrian is offline
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It is true that we don't know the facts and probably never will.

I don't know more than anyone else. But, what if a player is a great student and doesn't love basketball. Since he doesn't love basketball he spends all of his time studying and virtually no time practicing bball in the off season? Would that player deserve to keep his scholarship? I say no. That is kind of like an employer keeping a poorly performing employee when the employee simply isn't trying
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  #102  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:36 PM
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One of RH's tweets from today:
Do I wanna play or get a better education #DeepThought
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  #103  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Big D View Post
This isn't something that Archie is just starting to do at UD. All schools, including UD show players the door. It's sometimes due to the player being trouble (IE: Staten and Plummer)
Staten was not shown the door in any way, he left entirely on his own.
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  #104  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:59 PM
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I don't think he was shown the door as his tweets said at least they were honest. At the end of every season the coach sits down individually with each player and tells them where they are and what to expect.

Ralph has to make a decision is it an education at UD or playing time and maybe he does not want to give up his dream and that is what is on his plate. In his latest tweet he was going to church and put his faith in God.

Everyone wants to play Devils advocate but we don't have all of the info to make a judgment. The only info we have is that Ralph is a classy kid who has his head on straight and with his family will make the right decision. I wish him well and hope he succeeds at whatever he chooses.

Give Archie a little credit as I'm sure it is no picnic for the coaches either as Ralph is a good kid. Unfortunately we have too many bodies at the same position and Ralph is 6'6".
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  #105  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SHQCKEY View Post
Staten was not shown the door in any way, he left entirely on his own.
OMG, that is sarcasm, right? Or did we forget Staten's tears when he discovered the decision was irrevocable? And BG's quote that " I'm never going through another season like that".
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  #106  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post
It is true that we don't know the facts and probably never will.

I don't know more than anyone else. But, what if a player is a great student and doesn't love basketball. Since he doesn't love basketball he spends all of his time studying and virtually no time practicing bball in the off season? Would that player deserve to keep his scholarship? I say no. That is kind of like an employer keeping a poorly performing employee when the employee simply isn't trying
Huh? What does this set of facts/hypothetical set of facts have to do with what we know about Ralph Hill and UD?
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  #107  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SHQCKEY View Post
Staten was not shown the door in any way, he left entirely on his own.
Wrong
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  #108  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:27 PM
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Juwan Staten’s decision to transfer wasn’t driven by how his father felt — at least that’s what Bill Staten contends. . . The elder Staten insisted he would have supported his son in whatever he decided and that it was a tough decision all the way around. “Juwan is going to lose out in this deal. I lose out in this deal. … But the decision was made, and it was made based on the way he felt.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs...sons_deci.html
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  #109  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by funeralplanner View Post
Wrong
Wronger
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  #110  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:12 PM
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Based on Ralph's latest tweet it seems that he was told he can either stay on an academic scholarship (but can't even walk on per NCAA rules) or go play somewhere else. Sounds more than fair to me. If I was Ralph I'd stick around to get my degree, hang out with my friends on the team, move into a house in the Ghetto and dominate in intermurals.
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  #111  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Tony, my sons high school has seniors who get cut. Both in baseball and in basketball. They know that's a possibility going in and know where they are projected on the depth chart. They also know that seniors getting no playing will not happen. So get yourself in the rotation or get cut.
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If you are cut as a senior then the coach should shoulder some of the blame for keeping you as a junior. Unless there are disciplinary reasons seniors should receive the benefit of the doubt. If you are not projected to contribute as a junior then the cuts should be stiffer in that class rather than the senior class.
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  #112  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:25 PM
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Ralph could also stay and finish his degree, but would retain two years (or is it you can only use 4 years of eligibility out of a 5-yar span) of eligibility that he could then use while a grad student somewhere. Longshot, but a thought.
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  #113  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
This happens every year on every major basketball program. Ralph was told with Benson back and with The 2 bigs coming in Ralph would see no time next year. This is the reality of college sports.
This is completely fine in my book and I know this happens all the time.

Ralph's case 'appears' to be different in that he 'might' have been just told he didn't have a scholarship. This is a HUGE difference and is what and several others are concerned might have happened.

I don't understand why people who disagree with you attempt to have you saying something you aren't saying.

Also, why is it ok to judge what we think a potential recruit will do based on his tweets but we can't judge RH's situation, an actul member of the team, based on his tweets until all the facts are in?

Last edited by Marysville Flyer; 04-29-2012 at 08:42 PM..
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  #114  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
If you could or would bother to read, I said IF THIS IS WHAT happened - not THAT IT DID happen
He wasn't talking to you. He was talking to someone else.

He = longtimefan
Someone else = Sit_Down_Digger
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  #115  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
He wasn't talking to you. He was talking to someone else.

He = longtimefan
Someone else = Sit_Down_Digger
I got that too late. Guess I didn't bother to read. Guilty as charged by myself.
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  #116  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:46 PM
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So where do you think he goes? Is he good enough for MAC? HL? If he is interested in engineering - Toledo, Ohio, Cleve St, Youngstown St or maybe another UD/IUPUI transfer.
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  #117  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:01 PM
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I can understand RH's desire to play and if he had a different major perhaps transferring would make sense. But there are few schools to which RH could transfer that play basketball competitively and also provide a quality degree in engineering. It is not like he can transfer to a big ten school and expect playing time or Virginia Tech or one of the other Techs and expect playing time. Perhaps Drexel or CMU, Caltech etc. I suspect that even these schools would be even harder to transfer into as an engineering major than being accepted coming out of High School and being a basketball player would be of only minor value in his being accepted as a transfer.

It is a hard decision. He has to realize he will never play ball professionally and he might very will be giving up his post graduate dreams to pursue two more years of collegiate basketball.

I hope he takes all the time possible to make the best decision.
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  #118  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:07 PM
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Perhaps Swampy can confirm this. But as I understood it, the top student floor monitor at University Hall in 1968-1969 Jeery Sassen? was a Dayton Basket ball recruit, who left the team but stayed at Dayton to graduate.
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  #119  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:23 PM
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Whacker in many if the situations it has occurred I think cutting the seniors was appropriate. One example. Hoops team has 4 senior starters, and a senior 6th man and 8th man. 6 juniors fill out The varsity roster. You have 12 sophs playing JV because none would crack the 8 man rotation.

Next year the Varsity is 3 seniors and 9 juniors. Three seniors get cut.

Now the year before you could have cut the 3 juniors and put 3 sophs on the bench and not develop by playing JV. They don't allow JV to dress varsity so it would be don't play.
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  #120  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by oldfan View Post
Perhaps Swampy can confirm this. But as I understood it, the top student floor monitor at University Hall in 1968-1969 Jeery Sassen? was a Dayton Basket ball recruit, who left the team but stayed at Dayton to graduate.
I had no idea that Jerry Sasson was a hoopster...he seemed like kind of a nerd to me. My only real interaction with Jerry was when he threatened me with expulsion from UD for taking my mattress to wait for tickets outside the Fidldhiuse and ruining the mattress. My choice was replace it or get the boot. I bought a used one at Salvation Army for $3 and that was that.
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  #121  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
The 13th player on your bench will not factor in whether you are going to win or lose. If he does, then you've already failed as a coach because you didn't recruit players high enough to be in the top 8 or 9 that have separated themselves from the rest of the pack. That still leaves room for a specialist a couple of development players and maybe a transfer...
No...but if that 13th player is a freshman, they very well may be a 6th man by their junior year....RH won't get to that point.

If AM did tell him he wouldn't sniff the floor this year, then he was being honest and allowing RH to play ball elsewhere instead of being a practice player for the rest of his career.

Someone questioned why this was happening 6 weeks after the season. For all we know, AM could have given RH goals to meet before the summer break and RH may have not attained those goals. I am not stating this as fact, I am just stating what I remember as some of the offseason conversations that some of my college teammates were a part of back in the day.

We don't have any facts on the whole deal, but to paint a complete picture one way doesn't do anyone justice. Whatever comes of this, if decisions were made to improve the product on the floor and the end results, I am for it.
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  #122  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:52 PM
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Where is UD's engineering school ranked? I think it's certainly possible to find a school with a comparably ranked engineering school and a worse (but still D-1) basketball team. Those would be Ralph's targets if he wants to keep playing D-1.
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  #123  
Old 04-30-2012, 01:47 AM
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Ralph could seek a spot at Akron or Toledo or OU or Cleveland State- all good engineering schools and pretty decent to very good DI programs. Miami now has engineering, as do Youngstown State and Central and Western Michigan and U Detroit-Mercy. Where we're located, he has a number of choices within 5-6 hours drivetime.

But.... think back to the end of your sophomore year at UD...all the friends you had made by then... the ghetto...the campus... UD was your "home"...

Now imagine being told that if you wanted to stay in your major, you'd have to transfer to another school for junior year. How appealing would that have been? Probably, not very.

We all understand the necessity of this occurrence. It's the emotional, human part of the equation that is sad to see for the young man.
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  #124  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
I tend to agree with Marysville Flyer on this one. I hope we don't get into the habit of terminating scholarships for young people who are performing well in the classroom but only moderately well in their sport. Now, if Archie simply told him that playing time will be very limited, if any at all, then I actually applaud Archie for being honest with the young man. Then Ralph will have to make the decision as to whether or not he wants to stick around to only be a practice player. If there is a third option, that is that the university will be substituting an academic scholarship for a basketball scholarship, then I think I can accept that. I don't know the rules, but I doubt if a player on academic scholarship can "walk on" the basketball team. So UD will still be offering Ralph a high-quality education with an academic scholarship. I don't see anything that would violate our traditionally strong ethics with that move.
ON the East Coast, this is referred to as "The Calhoun Gambit."
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  #125  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:03 AM
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All of you who can no longer be fans of the program - don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Ralph Hill had his chances - under two different coaches - to elevate his play to the level the coaches and fans expect from the program. He fell short in that regard, though (we assume) he gave it his best shot. Life isn't always fair, but RH did get a two year free ride (which is two years more than I got).

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  #126  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:36 AM
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A guy in my pre-med curriculum gave up his basketball scholarship after his freshman year (1965-66). He kept a scholarship and ended up in med school after graduating.
He was a terror in the intramural league! He was soooo much better than everyone else!
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  #127  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AQUDXU View Post
ON the East Coast, this is referred to as "The Calhoun Gambit."
...and please explain the "Calhoun Gambit." I take it Coach Calhoun may have used this approach to make room for an extra player?
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  #128  
Old 04-30-2012, 11:29 AM
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Ok, having Hill leave is sad and personally don't want it to happen. Let me repeat I don't want Hill to leave UD. But, if you're one of the people complaining we don't have a good product on the court (not enough NCAA Bids) and not willing to pay the seat license then you shouldn't complain about Hill leaving. The product isn't good on the court because it hasn't been. You're not going to beat Xavier on the court if you have Ralph Hill type players. Hill was told he would have no minutes and probably not going to see the court. Clearly, a recruit like Taylor, Sibert, or someone else is in the mix at UD and is very close to committing. Look at this way, I would much rather be told the writing on the wall instead of finding out a year later. Archie is doing this kid a favor and is trying to help him go to a school where he can play right away. Archie is doing the right thing and doing a good job.
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  #129  
Old 04-30-2012, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
All of you who can no longer be fans of the program - don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Ralph Hill had his chances - under two different coaches - to elevate his play to the level the coaches and fans expect from the program. He fell short in that regard, though (we assume) he gave it his best shot. Life isn't always fair, but RH did get a two year free ride (which is two years more than I got).
It appears AM will play a much shorter bench than BG, so every year we'll have 2-3 guys who will be underperforming based on expectations (I think we expect every recruit to be a contributor not just during garbage time) - So, at least we'll always know if a good transfer/decommit comes our way late, we can send one (or more) of them packing to make room
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
It appears AM will play a much shorter bench than BG, so every year we'll have 2-3 guys who will be underperforming based on expectations (I think we expect every recruit to be a contributor not just during garbage time) - So, at least we'll always know if a good transfer/decommit comes our way late, we can send one (or more) of them packing to make room
Exactly. Archie isn't going to be playing 12 deep, so Ralph sits the bench for 2 yrs. I'll repeat, if UD can't get a NCAA bid because Ralph Hill only plays in mop up time with the walkons, then this program is in trouble.

We cut Ralph and make room for another bench warmer.
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
It appears AM will play a much shorter bench than BG, so every year we'll have 2-3 guys who will be underperforming based on expectations (I think we expect every recruit to be a contributor not just during garbage time)
Originally Posted by anthonycharles View Post
Exactly. Archie isn't going to be playing 12 deep, so Ralph sits the bench for 2 yrs. I'll repeat, if UD can't get a NCAA bid because Ralph Hill only plays in mop up time with the walkons, then this program is in trouble.

We cut Ralph and make room for another bench warmer.
Missing the boat here....

If RH is gone to put a better bench warmer on the bench, then I am for it. The better your practice players and scout team are, the better your top 8 are.

The old statement, "Practice against ****, play like ****"...You go against soft, uncompetitive players in practice day in and day out, beating up on the sisters of the poor, you aren't going to prepared for foreign competition and you sure as hell aren't going to get better as a team. Anyone think North Carolina slacks off for their 9-13 guys? Or do you think they go after the best to make the top dogs better?
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:40 PM
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Upgrading talent.

Originally Posted by anthonycharles View Post
. . . We cut Ralph and make room for another bench warmer.
Presumptions . . . From the Department of Having Your Cake and Eating It Too . . .

This complaint registers only if RH is replaced by a player of equal talent. We don't know who takes RH's spot on the roster - maybe the coaching staff can recruit someone good enough that one of last year's starters becomes a bench-warmer.

In Archie I trust - the UDPride messageboard, not so much.

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Old 04-30-2012, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
All of you who can no longer be fans of the program - don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Ralph Hill had his chances - under two different coaches - to elevate his play to the level the coaches and fans expect from the program. He fell short in that regard, though (we assume) he gave it his best shot. Life isn't always fair, but RH did get a two year free ride (which is two years more than I got).

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I'm sure that is just how his scholarship offer was presented to him when UD offered him 3 years ago. UD owes it to him to honor their commitment if he has done nothing to dishonor the school, team etc.

I'm glad so many are willing to throw ethics and commitment out the window for the hope of a few more NCAA invites. Pragmatism never wins.

I hardly think it is the RH's over the years that have kept UD out of the tourney. Those that believe that are delusional. What it has been is a failure of the coaches and the 8-10 core players to get the job done.

Funny how many of the same people dogging people who don't want to see UD go down this road are the same ones quick to criticize X, UC, Calipari etc. for their shady practices.

We all have our lines we don't want the university to cross. I happen to believe the adults in this situation should be the more responsible, ethical, honest and above reproach in all situations and should always put the student athletes best interests ahead of any personal or corporate goals.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:05 PM
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uhhh, wasn't there just an article about the best shooter in ky visiting in the next few days? best shooter in ky may be something more than just another bench warmer.

the cynicism in this thread is far more unbecoming than anything we know about the situation. actually, the tweets seem to suggest that ralph had a choice. a crappy one...but a choice. it seems most likely that am spoke honestly and let him know that his pt wasn't likely to increase (i guess not many here have kids playing elite level youth sports...coaches have these same talks with the parents of 9 and 10 year olds except it's usually about why their child was cut...it's rarely about having a choice to ride the pine). he could leave or continue to see slightly more than mop up duties. someone please explain how that merits comments along the lines of "if someone better comes along, i'll send someone packing."
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
I'm sure that is just how his scholarship offer was presented to him when UD offered him 3 years ago. UD owes it to him to honor their commitment if he has done nothing to dishonor the school, team etc.
Do you know if RH has kept his commitments to the basketball program? Just curious.

For all you know, he very well may not be working towards being a better ball player, may not be meeting off season goals in the weight room and with drills, may not be attending "non-mandatory" but rather mandatory workouts, etc....you don't know, and neither does any of us. So before judgement is passed on the "unethical" way that UD is handling a particular player, you may want to look beyond the simple argument that we "owe' it to a kid. We only "owe" something to a kid if he maintains excellence on and off the court. It is a two way street. Not a one way where a kid gets a free pass to not cut it on the court.

If a kid is a 4.0 student, do you keep him if he doesn't do what he signed up to do on the court? Student athlete has two facets...if a player only wants to be part of one of them, he can pack his bags.
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  #136  
Old 04-30-2012, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Missing the boat here....

If RH is gone to put a better bench warmer on the bench, then I am for it. The better your practice players and scout team are, the better your top 8 are.
I think you're missing the boat - who says we can't get better bench warmers every year?
Drop 1-3 from the end of the bench and bring in players that have a chance to contribute beyond garbage minutes.
Archie isn't going to go that deep so players will drop down there - look at the players who are considering UD now - if we could get one or two players of that quality every year by asking the end of the bench to walk, wouldn't that be an upgrade in talent? Instead of having a player at the end of the bench again next year, the new player may improve competition for the top 8 spots as they may be better than what we already have there

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Old 04-30-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
I'm sure that is just how his scholarship offer was presented to him when UD offered him 3 years ago. UD owes it to him to honor their commitment if he has done nothing to dishonor the school, team etc.

I'm glad so many are willing to throw ethics and commitment out the window for the hope of a few more NCAA invites. Pragmatism never wins.

I hardly think it is the RH's over the years that have kept UD out of the tourney. Those that believe that are delusional. What it has been is a failure of the coaches and the 8-10 core players to get the job done.

Funny how many of the same people dogging people who don't want to see UD go down this road are the same ones quick to criticize X, UC, Calipari etc. for their shady practices.

We all have our lines we don't want the university to cross. I happen to believe the adults in this situation should be the more responsible, ethical, honest and above reproach in all situations and should always put the student athletes best interests ahead of any personal or corporate goals.
so, please tell me how you know that am sent him packing. please indulge my naive ears with all you know about am's dark side. please share how you know that am was anything less than sincere in letting ralph know that his pt would likely stay flat.

but, if you cannot, please concede that we don't live in a monochromatic world. it's not agree with you or be a supporter of calipari. it's not as simple as good v evil. it's not luke v darth vader. i mean, look at your position on this. you can't be honest with the little we know and not recognize that there was some type of comment made to ralph about future playing time. that's honesty. am was being truthful. your moral insistence suggests that you hold honesty in high regard as it should be. in this situation, would you rather that am tell some sort of noble lie and act with disregard for what ralph might actually want? is it better to tell ralph that next year will be better so long as he puts in the time?

you can't possibly preach ethics in your post and then suggest that am should mislead ralph. to me, that's shameful and intolerable. period. ralph deserves to know where he stands...even if it hurts...a lot. if you put am in the evil group with huggins or quin snyder, so be it. actually, i'll go with him.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
uhhh, wasn't there just an article about the best shooter in ky visiting in the next few days? best shooter in ky may be something more than just another bench warmer.
Sorry if I don't believe the hype. It seems most of these guys are all-world coming out of HS. If Archie is only going to go 8-deep, like most seem to think on this board, there will need to be some benchwarmers. No? True, nobody knows what happened, including me. I just don't like the timing of this, that's all. Why not have this frank conversation with Ralph back in March when the season ends? Why wait until the prime of the recruiting season going into May? It doesn't smell right. I guess we can choose to believe Ralph did something wrong, like not meeting his "basketball obligations". I understand how some can be so hesitant to criticize Archie, considering we're still in the honeymoon phase. But if I wanted to cheer on a program where all that matters is winning, then I'd sign on to be a Buckeye fan or UK fan. We all know that would be a lot easier.

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Old 04-30-2012, 10:44 PM
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[QUOTE=Hyde Park Flyer]so, please tell me how you know that am sent him packing. please indulge my naive ears with all you know about am's dark side. please share how you know that am was anything less than sincere in letting ralph know that his pt would likely stay flat./QUOTE]

Actually both sides are speculating
AM told RH that he could stay at UD for his degree but won't be on the team
AM was being honest in telling RH he probably won't see the floor next season so can transfer if he wants

No one here can say for certain (unless you've talked to someone in the know)
which of these played out when AM and RH met and tweets by RH can be read both ways (Do I wanna play or get a better education)
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
I think you're missing the boat - who says we can't get better bench warmers every year?
Drop 1-3 from the end of the bench and bring in players that have a chance to contribute beyond garbage minutes.
Archie isn't going to go that deep so players will drop down there - look at the players who are considering UD now - if we could get one or two players of that quality every year by asking the end of the bench to walk, wouldn't that be an upgrade in talent? Instead of having a player at the end of the bench again next year, the new player may improve competition for the top 8 spots as they may be better than what we already have there
i may be misreading your post, but i don't think player development is being recognized. ralph has been in the program for 2 years. it would seem clear that he hasn't developed as much or as well as am expects. it appears that am had to have a very tough discussion with ralph about how that translates into minimal opportunities next year and likely his senior year. it's beyond debate that not all players have the same level of development that is required to earn pt. they don't equally close the holes in their games and blow up their advantages. it happens in every program. if the development isn't apparent after the player's sophomore year, it's probably a strong indicator that it's just not going to happen. the player may be the exception, but the overwhelming majority aren't. some kids are happy to stay with their teammates and give what they can in practice. others want the chance to play even if it means at a lower level. is this so offensive?
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonycharles View Post
Sorry if I don't believe the hype. It seems most of these guys are all-world coming out of HS. If Archie is only going to go 8-deep, like most seem to think on this board, there will need to be some benchwarmers. No? True, nobody knows what happened, including me. I just don't like the timing of this, that's all. Why not have this frank conversation with Ralph back in March when the season ends? Why wait until the prime of the recruiting season going into May? It doesn't smell right. I guess we can choose to believe Ralph did something wrong, like not meeting his "basketball obligations". I understand how some can be so hesitant to criticize Archie, considering we're still in the honeymoon phase. But if I wanted to cheer on a program where all that matters is winning, then I'd sign on to be a Buckeye fan or UK fan. We all know that would be a lot easier.
I have a problem criticizing Archie for Ralph's situation, but it's not because he's a new coach....it's because I (we) don't know all the facts.

If Archie told Ralph that he would get few minutes of paying time this year, and Ralph thought about it and decided he wanted to transfer so he could continue playing basketball, he had to be grateful for Archie's honesty (as he said in his tweet). The most cruel thing Archie could have done was to not tell him.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
I think you're missing the boat - who says we can't get better bench warmers every year?
Drop 1-3 from the end of the bench and bring in players that have a chance to contribute beyond garbage minutes.
On the majority of other mid-majors that is where RH is at...that's precisely what I am saying. If a bench warmer comes in here and is better than RH, it makes the team better.

RH can ride the pine and earn a degree or beat feet and actually use his eligibility left to see the floor at another D1 school not named Dayton.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:04 AM
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Regarding the end of the bench... there will always be players who aren't playing. Teams almost never go 13 deep in playing time. Ideally, however, if you have 3 or 4 players with limited minutes, 1 of them is a transfer who can't play anyway, and 2 of them are freshmen or sophomores who will contribute significant minutes as juniors or seniors. It's apparent Ralph isn't going to get significant minutes at Dayton at any point.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by UD Sam View Post
I have a problem criticizing Archie for Ralph's situation, but it's not because he's a new coach....it's because I (we) don't know all the facts.

If Archie told Ralph that he would get few minutes of paying time this year, and Ralph thought about it and decided he wanted to transfer so he could continue playing basketball, he had to be grateful for Archie's honesty (as he said in his tweet). The most cruel thing Archie could have done was to not tell him.
Absolutely correct....The difference here, which is not being mentioned, is this is "BG's" Ralph Hill, not Miller's RH..Miller inherited the kid so it's just a tad different than if Archie had sold Ralph and his family a lemon car, perpetuated with promises........Does AM still have responsibility in this? Of course he does but the white flag Archie carries in his pocket, or the mulligan, is that he can be straight-up with the kid and tell him he does not see him getting minutes unless injury or other circumstances happen. RH can take it any way he wants..This happens all over the country at at very very good schools. Get over it folks, there are lots of happenings going on outside of pleasantville....

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  #145  
Old 05-01-2012, 01:31 PM
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Ralph was absolutely unstoppable at a competitive D1 high school..... There is no good reason for him to not evolve into a good player at the D1 college level. So what happened?
- BG seemed to coach the offense out of just about every player he recruited and never really gave him a chance - just too many guys ahead of him that year.
- Now AM shows up and Ralph is probably not the type of player that he would have recruited. So maybe it is best for Ralph to move on. I really like the kid and was hoping for him to do well at UD. You all talk like the kid can't play..... My guess is that he will do well elsewhere.....
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
The difference here, which is not being mentioned, is this is "BG's" Ralph Hill, not Miller's RH..Miller inherited the kid so it's just a tad different than if Archie had sold Ralph and his family a lemon car, perpetuated with promises.....
I thought he was the University of Dayton's Ralph Hill.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:56 PM
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Does every kid that gets recruited get promised immediate playing time? Maybe, but doubtful. All recruits want to play even if they have to wait a year or two. Assume every college team goes 9 deep which means 4 kids rarely see the court. With over 300 D1 programs this means that there are potentially over 1200 kids that could possibly want to transfer. Assume 1/4th of them are seniors so that leaves about 900 kids that want to play at the next level but aren't getting a chance. There are no where near that many kids looking to transfer which only means one thing, they are content to work their butts off for little recognition and get a college degree. Ralph may be one of these kids which is fine in my book. I do not believe that UD should pull his scholarship. Ralph needs to make that decision if he wants to play somewhere else or work his but off for little recognition and get a degree.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by UD Sam View Post
If Archie told Ralph that he would get few minutes of paying time this year, and Ralph thought about it and decided he wanted to transfer so he could continue playing basketball, he had to be grateful for Archie's honesty (as he said in his tweet). The most cruel thing Archie could have done was to not tell him.
You are 100% correct. This is how I really hope it went down. I'll have no problem at all with Archie if this is how it went down. The more I think about it, the more I'm uneasy with the scenario that Archie told Ralph there is no place on the team for him but he can still get an education on an academic scholly. I was okay with that at first, but the more I think about it the more I'm not okay with this scenario.

For those arguing that Ralph was a BG player and not an Archie player, all we heard from Archie was how grateful he was that these guys bought into what he was teaching, especially the seniors. So if that's the case, this is how you return the favor? (again, only speculating on what happened, don't know for sure).

IF, and the key word is IF this played out like some on here are speculating, like I am, that Ralph's hand was forced and he wasn't given a decision whether to stay and ride the pine for 2 years or look to play elsewhere, than I will not have much patience if Archie doesn't start getting to the Sweet 16 on a consistant basis. IF this played out like I'm pointing out, Archie has really raised the stakes and he will need to succeed at a higher level than we've seen at UD and he'll need to do it fast.

With all that said, I'm really hoping Archie was just honest with Ralph and didn't dictate to him on what had to be done, but gave him a choice to sit on the bench for 2 yrs or look elsewhere to play or even just quit basketball all together and focus on his engineering degree, but it was ultimately Ralph's choice. If that is the case, then I will owe Archie a message board apology for even doubting him. But what I'm afraid of is that Ralph was a numbers casualty so we can get a recruit in here that Archie wants, and if that's the case, I don't think it's right.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I thought he was the University of Dayton's Ralph Hill.
When the Adm., BOD, CFO, or president starts offering BB scholarships to their preferred choices then let me know..Otherwise, it's a personal "relationship" business and a rather short one for AM and RH.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:05 PM
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I really liked the way Ralph stepped up his game when asked to last year. Disappointing to say the least, but hopefully things work out for him.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Iguomaniac View Post
If the rumblings are true, I wonder what's going on with recruiting that Archie needs that scholarship for next year. Many people here were speculating that he wouldn't use all of the available scholarships even with Ralph coming back. I can't believe Archie wouldn't renew a scholarship if he was planning on holding it anyway.
This may have already been addressed, but Archie may not need Hill's scholarship for next year, but for 2013-2014. If Hill came back for 2012-2013, hard for me to see him transferring elsewhere with just one year of eligibility remaining.

Hope this was just about playing time, hope Hill wasn't forced out. I don't like teams kicking players off the team. I wish Hill good luck in the future, he stayed out of trouble and represented the program well.

I think there is a difference between a few guys leaving in one year vs. situations like at Kentucky and Utah where 6 players left, or more likely didn't get their scholarships renewed, in one year at both schools. That just seems excessive.

Last edited by ud2; 05-01-2012 at 03:39 PM..
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:27 PM
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See the 1:50pm announcement today from the DDN on a companion thread. We can now start a fresh round of speculation.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:44 PM
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Every single time I saw Hill at the ref's table I would root for him to catch fire and go on a 12-point rampage. It never happened, but I always hoped. He seems like a class act kid, as does his mom. I like seeing these kinds represent our program WAY more than people like the Daliboas, Statens, etc. Plus, I'm a fan of the Bengals, Dolphins, Flyers and Reds. I clearly like underdogs...

However, I like to watch the team win games, too. As much as I hate to see a good kid run into any kinds of issues like this, whatever "this" may be, I can say that I'm not at all worried about the 3-4 positions next season, with or without Hill. It appears Archie may feel the same way. We have big needs at 1 & 2, and we still are far from dependably solid at the 5 spot. Hill can't help with either of those roles, and even with last year's shorthanded roster, he had every chance to shine but still saw limited play.

I hope Archie took the classy approach, and I'm sure he did. I trust the coaching staff knows what they are doing, and I wish Ralph only the best. I just hope we get a few more eligible (and skilled) bodies for next season!
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  #154  
Old 05-01-2012, 07:39 PM
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Post mortem

Went back and read this thread again (wow ) now that the official announcement is out--further embellished by Doug Harris's article and interview with Ralph:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs...cxtype=feedbot

All I can say is job well done Arch and Ralph. Emotional subject with the right ending making for an injection of confidence that our Coach will do the right things for all.

As for some of our extreme posters, they say Prozac really works. That, and some patience.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Went back and read this thread again (wow ) now that the official announcement is out--further embellished by Doug Harris's article and interview with Ralph:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs...cxtype=feedbot

All I can say is job well done Arch and Ralph. Emotional subject with the right ending making for an injection of confidence that our Coach will do the right things for all.

As for some of our extreme posters, they say Prozac really works. That, and some patience.
Not sure what your last paragraph means. You (and others) said you would be ok with AM not renewing Ralph's scholarship if it would help us win. Some of us feel that is not the right way to do things. A discussion ensued. Not sure where the Prozac comes into play.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:54 PM
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Sorry to hear that he's planning to switch out of engineering. Assuming he's doing well in the major that is - a lot of people switch out of engineering. (Your major is EE, huh? "Yeah - eventually econ.") But if he's making the grade and likes it...
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:01 PM
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Just as I suspected. When we don't have all the facts, we often use intuition to make judgements...and that is not always a good idea.

“This decision was completely mine. I could have chosen to stay here and stay on scholarship and just accept not playing or chose to stay here academically (and not playing basketball). But the thought of waking up one morning and not being able to play basketball anymore kind of overweighed that fact. I’m not ready to give the game up.”
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Not sure what your last paragraph means. You (and others) said you would be ok with AM not renewing Ralph's scholarship if it would help us win. Some of us feel that is not the right way to do things. A discussion ensued. Not sure where the Prozac comes into play.
SDF first chastised those that speculated RH was even leaving. It went on from there, and you are correct, he and other made that exact statement and that was what I responded to, NOT THAT I THOUGHT THAT WAS WHAT HAPPENED.

I said multiple times that IF what seemed to be at least inferred by RH was happening in deed did happen, it was wrong.

I'm not sure how RH's statement today that 'it was all my decision' doesn't conflict his earlier tweet that the decision wasn't his. People will believe what they want but to pretend that all the facts are 'now out' as some are claiming and shame on us for ever speculating or blowing things out of proportion is quite funny.
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:47 PM
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As I posted in the other thread, I'm very glad Arch does things the right way. Sorry I doubted ya Arch, I'm just getting to know you.

I don't agree with some others who feel it's okay to pull guy's scholarships even if they are doing things right off the court. It seems Archie feels the same way. Props to our coach.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:16 PM
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Prozac

exhibit 1-

"Hall of Fame coaches like Brown can do this right off the bat. Rookie coaches like Archie Miller have to wait a year before they can pull the trigger. Both coaches have their own motivation for steamrolling players. In Brown's case, he wants to quickly turn around a terrible program as a crowning jewel in a long list of accomplishments before he once again retires. Miller, like Brown, also wants to quickly turn a program around but for a much different reason...so he can move onward and upward. How hypocritical is the University of Dayton to allow this happen while at the same time slapping themselves on their backs for the Ebony Gainey story? Who is Ebony Gainey? She was the UD women's player who before she ever played a collegiate game was diagnosed with a heart ailment and never played for Dayton. Jim Jabir kept her ON SCHOLARSHIP for four years until finally suiting up and starting on senior night. Heart warming story. UD basketball is a business and we as fans demand a better "product" on the floor and if that means dumping a player, whose only "ailment" is low talent level, then so be it. Too bad the athletic department doesn't follow the strength of character and integrity model shown by Coach Jabir."

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Old 05-01-2012, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
I'm not sure how RH's statement today that 'it was all my decision' doesn't conflict his earlier tweet that the decision wasn't his.
His earlier comment could have referred to the decision on his lack of playing time or recruiting guys who would play over him.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:07 PM
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Let the speculation continue!

I wonder if his earlier tweet was about the realization that he wasn't going to see the floor at all. Maybe he wasn't working at it 100% and felt like he could raise his game enough to earn major PT as an upperclassman. A frank talk with AM may have dispelled that notion.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:09 AM
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A more recent blog from Harris tonight commented on Ralph's tweets that vented his frustration, but sounded like he was being pushed out of the program to free up a scholarship when he wrote, "Who coulda thought after everything I been thru this choice wasn’t even mine.”

But he cooled down a day later, posting, “It’s MY decision!” and he regretted using Twitter to work through his emotions.

"After being told his early Twitter binge suggested he was angry over his scholarship being pulled, Hill said: “No, no, no, I wasn’t forced out at all. Archie just brought it to my attention that, he knows I love the game and knows I want to play, and he knows I wouldn’t be happy if I wasn’t playing. I’m grateful and I’m really happy he was honest with me".

“This decision was completely mine. I could have chosen to stay here and stay on scholarship and just accept not playing or chose to stay here academically (and not play basketball). But the thought of waking up one morning and not being able to play basketball anymore kind of overweighed that fact. I’m not ready to give the game up.”

I always thought Ralph was a classy guy and his responses to his emotional tweets prove that.

Archie's comments on Khari Price and the busy recruiting season are at the end of the article. I wonder if fans realize how much time and effort has been put into recruiting this past year with our roster being top heavy with veterans with few underclassmen when Miller arrived.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...s-1368963.html

Last edited by UD Sam; 05-02-2012 at 03:13 AM..
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:47 AM
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I just feel bad for RH. Good kid, I'm sure its hard for him to leave UD. I know I wouldn't have wanted to transfer to another school after my Soph year. Good luck to you man! Please get your degree wherever you end up transferring to. Miami has a new coach with roster spots open.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:03 AM
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So now that more facts are out about the situation, can we stop speculating about how wrong AM is for being so unprofessional in kicking Ralph off the team? The DDN article states in B&W that ARCHIE WAS VERY UP FRONT WITH RALPH ABOUT LIMITED PT BUT THAT HE COULD REMAIN ON SCHOLARSHIP IF HE CHOOSES. IMO Archie is in a tough spot because he gets paid big bucks to win games (or else) and he recognizes the need to upgrade talent. As we all know coaches only have so many scholarships to try to improve the talent. RH was obviously not an AM recruit, but AM was willing to honor the kids scholarship so that he could continue to pursue his free education.

Having said all that, many thanks to RH for his commitment to UD basketball the past couple of years and best of luck in the future. The Flyer Faithful stands behind you! Also, kudos to AM for being honest with the kid and looking out for his best interests. That is the type of leadership that EARNS my respect.

Go Flyers!

Ps: I typed this on my iPhone so sorry for any mitsteaks
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:01 AM
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People can be emotional when faced with a tough decision. I'm sure it wasn't Hill's best day ever. Who cares what his tweets say. One reason I despise Twitter.

Anyways, Archie gave him an opportunity to stay while informing him of his role on the team. Hill decided he wants to play, and he's not the first or last collegiate athlete that will make that decision. What more can we ask? Kudos and best wishes to both parties.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by UD Sam View Post
But he cooled down a day later, posting, Its MY decision! and he regretted using Twitter to work through his emotions.
Wow, using the internet to work through his emotions. I am glad no posters on UDPRIDE ever do that.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Not sure what your last paragraph means. You (and others) said you would be ok with AM not renewing Ralph's scholarship if it would help us win. Some of us feel that is not the right way to do things. A discussion ensued. Not sure where the Prozac comes into play.
so now it all of a sudden becomes a personal preference opinion versus how AM handled it type battle/conflict? Give up the fight would ya? Yes, I'm ecstatic that RH will not be here next year based on his BB ability and skill set and based on the plan that AM has for him. Has zero to do with RH the person, the great teammate, the excellent friend of many, and the great student.
From my "selfish" perspective, if that's okay with you, I'd like to see a player far more ready to be a contributor whether this year or the next come into the program.. Soon, if not already, you'll be saying RH is lying in his comment and just covering up for the evil HC..
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:40 AM
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It's popcorn time!

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Old 05-02-2012, 11:08 AM
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Interesting how there was a rush to judgement by several on this thread. That is why it is best to wait until all facts are in before making a judgement. Good luck to RH.
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  #171  
Old 05-02-2012, 12:02 PM
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did I mention 'predictable'?

Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
Interesting how there was a rush to judgement by several on this thread.
More like an 'over-reaction' but I see your point.
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  #172  
Old 05-02-2012, 12:23 PM
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Just a Thought

This thread may have led to the facts coming out which is a good thing. I'm sure coach Miller would like to thank every one who assumed he was SATAN pure evil personified!!! ;-)
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
so now it all of a sudden becomes a personal preference opinion versus how AM handled it type battle/conflict? Give up the fight would ya? Yes, I'm ecstatic that RH will not be here next year based on his BB ability and skill set and based on the plan that AM has for him. Has zero to do with RH the person, the great teammate, the excellent friend of many, and the great student.
From my "selfish" perspective, if that's okay with you, I'd like to see a player far more ready to be a contributor whether this year or the next come into the program.. Soon, if not already, you'll be saying RH is lying in his comment and just covering up for the evil HC..
I'm not sure what your problem is. I think we were having a very important discussion. Some people think it is ok to pull scholarships from players who are not trouble makers, and others don't think that is ok. That is a very important component of how we want UD to move forward as a program. We have criticized other programs for doing that very thing, and now some want us to start doing it. I see nothing wrong with discussing such an extremely important issue. I thought that was what a message board was for - discussion.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by UD Sam View Post
Archie's comments on Khari Price and the busy recruiting season are at the end of the article. I wonder if fans realize how much time and effort has been put into recruiting this past year with our roster being top heavy with veterans with few underclassmen when Miller arrived.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...s-1368963.html
Their recruiting pace has been unbelievable. I hope they can all take a short vacation after the recruiting class is set for this year.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:54 PM
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For the record I am fine telling a kid you aren't good enough to play here and we are not renewing your basketball scholarship. But we will honor the academic commitment we made and ensure you get similar academic benefits. I don't see much distinction between that and saying you will never play. Either leaves the kid the same choice. Get a UD degree or transfer to play.
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  #176  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:02 PM
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Talking

Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post
. . . I hope they can all take a short vacation after the recruiting class is set for this year.

No rest until Maverick Morgan is signed!

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Old 05-03-2012, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
For the record I am fine telling a kid you aren't good enough to play here and we are not renewing your basketball scholarship. But we will honor the academic commitment we made and ensure you get similar academic benefits. I don't see much distinction between that and saying you will never play. Either leaves the kid the same choice. Get a UD degree or transfer to play.
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I thought about this for a day and for the record I am not in favor of pulling the athletic scholarship in this situation. I am okay with pulling it if there is "cause" like an off court incident or not putting in the effort in practice. If the coach is pulling the scholarship, the coach has either failed as a talent evaluator or as a talent developer. That is on the coach not the player. If the coach changes, I expect the new coach to honor the previous coaches commitments. If the player can handle the "walk on type minutes" I am okay with him staying on the team.

Maybe I still have a too much pollyianna in me but I have a distaste for the one and dones at UK and all the changing conference affiliations. Others have said it, who would want to change schools after 2 years? I think there is something to making a commitment to an 18 year old and sticking to it.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:11 AM
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Ralph's situation was a bit more complicated than that. He wasn't recruited by Arch so we can rule out the mistake in recruiting. Ralph couldn't make it off the bench of BG and Arch gave him a fair and honest trial for a year. I don't see this happening with any other player on the squad going forward.
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  #179  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
For the record I am fine telling a kid you aren't good enough to play here and we are not renewing your basketball scholarship. But we will honor the academic commitment we made and ensure you get similar academic benefits. I don't see much distinction between that and saying you will never play. Either leaves the kid the same choice. Get a UD degree or transfer to play.
The difference is with one, the player has a choice to remain part of the team he committed to and has been a contributing member of for 2 years (attending practices and games, off season workouts, maintaining his GPA, accepting his role and not having an attitude because of lack of playing time, etc.)
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
No rest until Maverick Morgan is signed!

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Word on the street is that he has an offer from VAnderbilt.
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  #181  
Old 05-04-2012, 04:14 PM
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All this for our 11th man....smh
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
No rest until Maverick Morgan is signed!

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I think we have a great shot at morgan unless Ohio State offers. But, we have to show some potential to be a real winner while he is here.
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  #183  
Old 05-05-2012, 08:23 AM
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Best of luck to Ralph wherever he ends up at. Sorry to read he is getting out of engineering as a major. He seems like a fine young man who will do well in life.
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  #184  
Old 05-05-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Sit_Down_Digger View Post
Best of luck to Ralph wherever he ends up at. Sorry to read he is getting out of engineering as a major. He seems like a fine young man who will do well in life.
... Said the engineer.
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:43 AM
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@ Gilchrist's...you betcha....class of '79. Nobody knew what a computer was then...but thank god no one knew what a slide rule was either. But those old TI calculators were the bomb! haha
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  #186  
Old 05-05-2012, 02:46 PM
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Have one currently on my desk!
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:39 AM
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Per Larry Hansgen, "while players may want to win now, coaches NEED to win now, and that prompts difficult discussions with players who are not going to expedite success".

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...s-1371190.html
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:13 PM
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Tonight on his twitter account Ralph said he will be going to Oakland University. Best of luck to Ralph with his future at Oakland.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:40 AM
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Isn't that our former coach's alma mater . . . will sit for a year and probably works out well for him. Good luck Ralph.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:06 AM
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Best wishes to Ralph at his new team. He was classy as a Flyer while he was here.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:27 AM
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Great choice for Ralph. He will have an opportunity to make an impact there. Oakland has also been getting to the big dance, so this might work out well for him.
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Old 06-18-2012, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by moville View Post
Isn't that our former coach's alma mater . . . will sit for a year and probably works out well for him. Good luck Ralph.
Right you are, Joe. BG played for Greg Kampe at OU when it was D-II. He's a good coach and I'm sure BG put in a good word for Ralph with his mentor.
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Old 06-18-2012, 03:17 PM
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Ralph seemed to be a quality individual. I don't know if we would have beat Fordham this year without him. Wishing the young man nothing but the best at Oakland and in his future.
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Old 06-18-2012, 03:38 PM
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Ralph talked to the Detroit Free Press

http://www.freep.com/article/2012061...ws|text|Sports
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:41 PM
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He may end up playing in the Horizon League across town.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:43 PM
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I'm really happy for Ralph. OU has a quality program and he will get the opportunities he deserves there. He'll always be a member of the Flyer family in my book.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:09 PM
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For Bill M in NJ - you're right about the Fordham game . . . and at Temple, a game I was at . . . he was only on the floor briefly but he did his job while he was out there.

Well, the question of the hour for guys like McPeek and Swamp and other 60 somethings . . . are we going to make it to the Elite 8 in our lifetime? Hope is a good thing, maybe the best thing . . . to borrow a line for Shawshank.

If we, after more than 50 years can have two guys in the Bigs (Stammen and Blevins) - and two guys doing well, anything is possible.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:19 PM
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Old 06-18-2012, 10:06 PM
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Elite 8 twice?

I'm in my 60's. Didn't we make the Elite 8 twice and get Roggenburk in the bigs?
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:24 PM
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This is the way it should work.

From the DDN and Doug Harris, BG gave Oakland a nudge in Ralph's direction.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...--1393177.html
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