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05-09-2023, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86
I think we are doomed to obscurity until we have a new coach. I also think that AG wisely (finally) addressed the lack of guards, and seems to have landed some solid talent in doing so. Whether it amounts to anything is a question for another day, but I'll give him this win. I need something to give me hope that next season won't be a dumpster fire.
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Dayton has never been obscure and I find it hard to believe we will be, (unless the definition of that word has changed, I know a lot of definitions have). I certainly don't think we are in danger of slipping into obscurity three years removed from being ranked #3 in the nation, having the college player of the year and the coach of the year. Were the last two years acceptable, no. But the suggestion that UD is or will become irrelevant and unknown is ridiculous.
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05-09-2023, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Yes. I would sell you a red sweater, but I think you probably have dozens.
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ROFL, well played
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05-09-2023, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
Dayton has never been obscure and I find it hard to believe we will be, (unless the definition of that word has changed, I know a lot of definitions have). I certainly don't think we are in danger of slipping into obscurity three years removed from being ranked #3 in the nation, having the college player of the year and the coach of the year. Were the last two years acceptable, no. But the suggestion that UD is or will become irrelevant and unknown is ridiculous.
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Boy, I dunno. If we miss the ncaat again in 2024, that is missing the ncaat 6 out of the last 7 years...the A10 may again be a one bid league...the A10 was the 12th best league last year...we are starting to become an also-ran in a one bid, mid-major conference...none of that screams relevance.
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05-09-2023, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86
Teams are evaluating a young guy like Mike very differently than they are 30 year old players. One has room to grow and develop, the others are what they are at this point in their careers.
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All of the 200+ people leaving college for the pros this year are looking for a G league spot and they all fit this same definition of "young guys" teams are "evaluating".
You didn't change or re-frame the argument, at all. It's what you want to be true.
When you add all the 18 year olds to the 19, 20, 21 . . . -> 30 year olds, there are THOUSANDS of people fighting for those same limited spots.
It's unbelievably egocentric to think Mike is the exception, and not the rule. Someone has to be the exception, sure. But the easy money is on the field not him. The starters at Duke, Michigan, Kansas, tOSU, heck the ones leaving Creighton and Marquette have never even heard of Mike. But we're VERY confident he's "the one"? Mmmkay.
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05-09-2023, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86
Teams are evaluating a young guy like Mike very differently than they are 30 year old players. One has room to grow and develop, the others are what they are at this point in their careers.
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Oh, and don't forget, 1 year from now there will be 200+ more young guys the teams are evaluating.
Think the guy who's got a year in the G league under his belt is afraid of losing his spot to the 3rd string PG from a team that didn't make the tournament, and shot 31% from 3, and benches 165 pounds?
I say no.
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05-09-2023, 01:26 PM
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Mike is raw for sure. That may be an understatement. But with his size and the potential based on his father's career and size, someone is going to take a chance on him professionally. Not saying NBA now obviously, but he is a professional player in my opinion.
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05-09-2023, 01:54 PM
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Just curious how many companies would fire salespeople for barely missing quota. Would you fire someone for hitting 98% of quota? Most companies would not let a sales rep get by getting right up to quota. Most would fire a sales rep for making only 70% of quota.
Last year, UD was the last team left out of the tournament. This, year, less than 10 minutes from the tournament. If Grant was missing by a wide margin the decisions would be easier. Near misses make the AD decision harder.
Yes, the fan base was disappointed not making the dance, including me.
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05-09-2023, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Mike is raw for sure. That may be an understatement. But with his size and the potential based on his father's career and size, someone is going to take a chance on him professionally. Not saying NBA now obviously, but he is a professional player in my opinion.
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His father's career with the Globetrotters? You make it sound like he was Bill Russell. I wish him the best but but as far as 6'7" guards go, he certainly doesn't conjure up memories of a young Kobe Bryant.
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05-09-2023, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan
Just curious how many companies would fire salespeople for barely missing quota. Would you fire someone for hitting 98% of quota? Most companies would let a sales rep get by getting right up to quota. Most would fire a sales rep for making only 70% of quota.
Last year, UD was the last team left out of the tournament. This, year, less than 10 minutes from the tournament. If Grant was missing by a wide margin the decisions would be easier. Near misses make the AD decision harder.
Yes, the fan base was disappointed not making the dance, including me.
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It is also a lot easier to fire people when millions of people could do their job, (no offense intended there, I readily admit that almost anyone could do my job). When the replacement pool is infinitely smaller, I think you need to think a little harder before get rid of someone who had the best sales numbers in the history of the company three years ago but missed quota the last two years. We evaluate our employees productivity on a 3 year rolling average, to the extent this is an apples to apples comparison, which it is not.
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05-09-2023, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
His father's career with the Globetrotters? You make it sound like he was Bill Russell. I wish him the best but but as far as 6'7" guards go, he certainly doesn't conjure up memories of a young Kobe Bryant.
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Yeah, I compared him to Russell and Kobe. Sure.
Something tells me that if he was still at UD you would be sniffing his jock.
(Same thing for Blakney - everyone love that guy - what a shutdown guard! Except when he transferred - and all of a sudden he was not so good anymore)
I am just saying that Mike's dad is 7ft tall and Mike is a shooter. That is what professional basketball is now.
https://nbadraftroom.com/mike-sharavjamts/
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05-09-2023, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
His father's career with the Globetrotters? You make it sound like he was Bill Russell. I wish him the best but but as far as 6'7" guards go, he certainly doesn't conjure up memories of a young Kobe Bryant.
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The number of people who saw Mike play a role for the Flyers this year and now confidently extrapolate that his career will significantly out-pace all current and future guards over the next ~5 years with the exception of about 60 human beings on this planet (NBA guards), is, well, greatly surprising.
It could happen. The odds HEAVILY say it won't. I'm not trying to pee in anyone's cornflakes, but c'mon man. I wish him the best while knowing the odds are just simply mathematically stacked against him like an elephant sitting on a daisy.
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05-09-2023, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Yeah, I compared him to Russell and Kobe. Sure.
Something tells me that if he was still at UD you would be sniffing his jock.
(Same thing for Blakney - everyone love that guy - what a shutdown guard! Except when he transferred - and all of a sudden he was not so good anymore)
I am just saying that Mike's dad is 7ft tall and Mike is a shooter. That is what professional basketball is now.
https://nbadraftroom.com/mike-sharavjamts/
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I was extremely excited about Mike's college career. NBA? Notsomuch.
I notice you keep saying "play professionally" but you're quite careful to avoid saying NBA or even G league. Coincidence? Heck, Mike could play "professionally" in a dozen countries around the world right now if he goes to a low enough level. So you can always come back and tell us you NEVER SAID he's play in an NBA capacity.
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05-09-2023, 02:21 PM
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Don't try to reform your own stupid post by saying I would be sniffing the kid's jock if he was still at UD. You projected him as a NBA player "based on his father's career and size." I realize you have now back peddled from NBA to professional after criticizing Grant for not making the NCAA tourney with 3 NBA players and having a wave or people point out that we likely only have one NBA player, or that Duke finished below .500 with 5 NBA players. Had you ever heard of his dad before he committed, of course not. I know alot of tall people who are horrible at basketball or who were good but whose kids are not.
I mean Michael Jordan's kids didn't sniff the NBA, what does that tell you about the roll of genetics in all this?
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05-09-2023, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
I was extremely excited about Mike's college career. NBA? Notsomuch.
I notice you keep saying "play professionally" but you're quite careful to avoid saying NBA or even G league. Coincidence? Heck, Mike could play "professionally" in a dozen countries around the world right now if he goes to a low enough level. So you can always come back and tell us you NEVER SAID he's play in an NBA capacity.
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It is partly because of the injuries at guard (and CAG having an open scholly and having guards leave the program but thats for another thread) but I do not think that MM was used to his strengths at all. It makes sense for him to leave, because we play one of the slowest offenses in the English speaking world. And probably the Mongolian speaking world. He was not going to get better here.
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05-09-2023, 04:39 PM
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Here are the top 25 in pace from last year:
1 Troy
2 Oral Roberts
3 Oklahoma
4 Chicago State
5 North Carolina Central
6 Florida State
6 Niagara
8 UTA
9 Minnesota
10 Western Illinois
11 North Dakota
12 Georgia Southern
12 Ohio State
14 Alcorn State
14 California Baptist
14 Iowa
14 Texas Southern
18 Eastern Kentucky
19 Prairie View A&M
20 Southern Illinois
21 Northwestern
21 Pacific
21 SIUE
24 Michigan State
24 ULM
A few of those teams made the tourney last year, I think Michigan State went to the sweet 16. There was a really good post on another thread regarding the relationship between pace and offensive efficiency. You must have missed that one. In any event, as with most things oversimplification tends to miss the point. You are like the people who look at Obi's +/- after playing 6 minutes and Randall's after playing 30 to suggest that Obi should be the starting PF for the Knicks.
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05-09-2023, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
When the replacement pool is infinitely smaller, I think you need to think a little harder before get rid of someone who had the best sales numbers in the history of the company three years ago but missed quota the last two years. We evaluate our employees productivity on a 3 year rolling average, to the extent this is an apples to apples comparison, which it is not.
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Grant missed his quota for the last 3 years, not the last 2 years. And the guy before Grant met his quota 4x more than Grant has so far over the same time frame.
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05-10-2023, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
It is partly because of the injuries at guard (and CAG having an open scholly and having guards leave the program but thats for another thread) but I do not think that MM was used to his strengths at all. It makes sense for him to leave, because we play one of the slowest offenses in the English speaking world. And probably the Mongolian speaking world. He was not going to get better here.
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So, NBA or no? Maybe you overlooked that question.
NBA, yes - or - no?
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05-10-2023, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
So, NBA or no? Maybe you overlooked that question.
NBA, yes - or - no?
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He's not going to the NBA this year. I think he knows that too. Idk why everybody is so hung up on him putting his name in the draft for feedback when he's very likely more interested in other professional options like the G League, where I think he has a very legitimate chance.
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05-10-2023, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86
He's not going to the NBA this year. I think he knows that too. Idk why everybody is so hung up on him putting his name in the draft for feedback when he's very likely more interested in other professional options like the G League, where I think he has a very legitimate chance.
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NBA ever? Yes or no?
Remember, we had "3 NBA players on this team". So I want Coffee to tell us, was Mike one of them?
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05-10-2023, 08:45 AM
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Could MM be on an NBA rooster next year? Only if Camara is. Because no way in hades is MM 1/10 the player that Camara is right now.
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05-10-2023, 09:08 AM
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I never said MM was an NBA lock or Kobe Bryant or Bill Russell.
Just that he has what the NBA is looking for... he can handle the ball, is 6'8", and can shoot.
Does he need more time? Yes.
Would another year of college hurt him? No.
Thats the gist.
Bottom line - we had three THREE players who are good enough NOW to play professionally in come capacity and could not win the dog**** A10.
But you know this, so trying to poke a hole in where I said he was Bill Russell shows me that you know I am right.
Grant plays a very slow offense, which in my mind is not the kind of offense where Mike can grow.
Grant got ZERO out of that team. And a better coach would have gotten more. That is what I am talking about. I dont care where Mike plays or where he does not play. The point is that Grant failed. Again.
Last edited by CoffeeCan; 05-10-2023 at 09:11 AM..
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05-10-2023, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
I never said MM was an NBA lock or Kobe Bryant or Bill Russell.
Just that he has what the NBA is looking for... he can handle the ball, is 6'8", and can shoot.
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Except he has NO D. D is still a big big thing in the NBA. MM needs to learn to play D before he gets any chance for an NBA roster spot.
Hard to say if he ever gets to the NBA - he was not here long enough to see if there was a chance for him to play better D.
Right now I would lean on never in the NBA - but maybe G-League.
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05-10-2023, 09:24 AM
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It does not matter whether Mike is or is not a pro. He could retire tomorrow and become a graphic designer for all I know or care...
And if he did, Grant still did not win an awful A10 with Holmes and Camara.
That is criminal.
Every team has injuries.
Why an open scholly?
Why the transfers out?
Where is the blame on how bad Blakney was?
Unbelievable. Red Sweater clearance in the bookstore I guess.
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05-10-2023, 11:10 AM
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Ready to hire Huggins? proven winner.
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05-10-2023, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeymo85
Ready to hire Huggins? proven winner.
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I am ready to hire him, he is a longtime proven winner, I want to win. He made a one-time mistake, I do not think he should be fired. I didn't think Thom Brennaman should have been fired either, it was a one-time mistake. Both men apologized, I wish that Thom wasn't dealt with so harshly.
Last edited by ud2; 05-10-2023 at 11:36 AM..
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05-10-2023, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeymo85
Ready to hire Huggins? proven winner.
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No, but I don't think being a proven winner and a decent person are mutually exclusive.
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05-10-2023, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeymo85
Ready to hire Huggins? proven winner.
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The University of Dayton does not condone slurs of any kind against any people.
Oh wait, he said the slurs about Xavier fans. Nevermind. That is fine.
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05-10-2023, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Just that he has what the NBA is looking for... he can handle the ball, is 6'8"...
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and 180 lbs...hardly what the NBA is looking for...
Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
and can shoot...
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38% FG, 31 % FT and 67% FTs is hardly what the NBA is looking for.
Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Does he need more time? Yes.
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The NBA agrees with you on this...but disagrees on the length of time.
Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Would another year of college hurt him? No.
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Another year isn't enough. Another 3 years, 5000 calories/day, a larger jock strap and a quick fix for his alligator arms isn't something that is developed overnight or in a year.
Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Bottom line - we had three THREE players who are good enough NOW to play professionally in come capacity and could not win the dog**** A10.
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FYI...every scholarship player on UDs roster is capable of playing professionally in some capacity. Even Zimi. Same with Wright State...same with X, UC, Miami, etc... There is no shortage of 'pro' leagues on this planet. Every scholarship UD player this century could play for the Dutch Professional BB League, Isreal, Saudia Arabia, China, the Mongolian NBA, LNB Pro A (France), Germany, British Basketball League...etc...
Which begs the questions as to why UD hasn't won multiple NCAA Championships! So much wasted talent...so sad.
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05-10-2023, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
It does not matter whether Mike is or is not a pro. He could retire tomorrow and become a graphic designer for all I know or care...
And if he did, Grant still did not win an awful A10 with Holmes and Camara.
That is criminal.
Every team has injuries.
Why an open scholly?
Why the transfers out?
Where is the blame on how bad Blakney was?
Unbelievable. Red Sweater clearance in the bookstore I guess.
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You and others keep saying everyone has injuries, but that while true completely misses the point. You could say we dealt with our injuries too, we won 22 games, finished 2nd in the conference and lost in the championship game of the conference tournament. What you need to tell me and everyone else is how many teams dealt with the season long injury issues UD did, and won their conference, won their conference tournament and went to the NCAA. That is the data that supports the point you are trying to make. So please provide it.
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05-10-2023, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
But you know this, so trying to poke a hole in where I said he was Bill Russell shows me that you know I am right.
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Funny, I was thinking that strawman arguments and ad hominem points kinda proves, definitively, that you know I am. 'cause I never said any of that stuff, good luck proving that I did.
Originally Posted by rollo
FYI...every scholarship player on UDs roster is capable of playing professionally in some capacity. Even Zimi. Same with Wright State...same with X, UC, Miami, etc... There is no shortage of 'pro' leagues on this planet. Every scholarship UD player this century could play for the Dutch Professional BB League, Isreal, Saudia Arabia, China, the Mongolian NBA, LNB Pro A (France), Germany, British Basketball League...etc...
Which begs the questions as to why UD hasn't won multiple NCAA Championships! So much wasted talent...so sad.
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Doggone it, you beat me to it.
Which is why Coffeecan won't answer the question, because there is ALWAYS a pro league where Mike COULD play. High school kids could play in some of those leagues. (And do.)
But Coffee doesn't want to admit: Mike's long term prospects are not, at this moment, projected out to such a high level that it proves AG did a bad job.
And Coffee will most definitely not address the fact that Duke had 5 future NBA players on their team and the winningest college coach of all time leading the ship, and yet only went a game over .500, because then he'd have to admit it's not nearly as simple as he wants to make it sound.
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05-10-2023, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
why UD hasn't won multiple NCAA Championships! So much wasted talent...so sad.
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I will take a tourney bid first. Which we did not get despite having three pro-level players in a dog**** conference. I can do this all day
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05-10-2023, 01:18 PM
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Zimi's stated goal coming out of Spire Academy is to earn 'a spot on an NBA team in the future." whereas Mongolian Mike is' primarily focusing on professional opportunities'...so it sounds to me that Zimi needs to be the 4th NBA hopeful Coffeecan uses against AG.
He has what the NBA is looking for...he's 6'7", can handle the ball and can shoot. Zimi's freshman stats are comparable if not better than MM.
.......ZIMI ...... MM
Height: 6'7" vs 6'8"
Weight: 180 vs 180
PPG: 5.9 vs 5.6
Reb/G: 2.4 vs 1.9
Assists: 14 vs 83
MPG: 19.9 vs 23.3
FG%: 45.3% vs 38.8%
3 pt%: 31.6% vs 31.5%
FT %: 74.4% vs 67.7%
TOs: 22 vs 48
Based on this freshman comparison and looking toward the future, either Zimi is ready for 'Professional' ball...or Mongolian Mike peaked early.
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05-10-2023, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Zimi's stated goal coming out of Spire Academy is to earn 'a spot on an NBA team in the future." whereas Mongolian Mike is' primarily focusing on professional opportunities'...so it sounds to me that Zimi needs to be the 4th NBA hopeful Coffeecan uses against AG.
He has what the NBA is looking for...he's 6'7", can handle the ball and can shoot. Zimi's freshman stats are comparable if not better than MM.
.......ZIMI ...... MM
Height: 6'7" vs 6'8"
Weight: 180 vs 180
PPG: 5.9 vs 5.6
Reb/G: 2.4 vs 1.9
Assists: 14 vs 83
MPG: 19.9 vs 23.3
FG%: 45.3% vs 38.8%
3 pt%: 31.6% vs 31.5%
FT %: 74.4% vs 67.7%
TOs: 22 vs 48
Based on this freshman comparison and looking toward the future, either Zimi is ready for 'Professional' ball...or Mongolian Mike peaked early.
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1 out of 6. Cannot believe you are sticking up for Grant. Oh how the mighty have fallen
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05-10-2023, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
1 out of 6. Cannot believe you are sticking up for Grant. Oh how the mighty have fallen
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That's your response when confronted with a factual side by side comparison of Mike and Zimi? I am starting to wonder if there isn't something other than coaching that you don't like about Anthony Grant.
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05-10-2023, 01:38 PM
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There were many, challenges with Mike.
1) Communications. His English or lack of was a big, big, big challenge for coaches.
2) Class work
3) Living on campus. Mike was often off campus and away from the team. I understand there was some team chemistry missing because of that.
4) His weak, weak defense. Yes, Grant favors defense to win games.
5) Mike's father's influence. Hard to have two head coaches. Staten revisited.
Mike has exceptional court vision and has potential. He can be really good, but so can many college players.
We can say that Grant did not utilize Mike properly, but there were lots of items to overcome to fully utilize his skills. You can say Grant should speed up the offense to favor Mike more, but he had a lot of hobbling teammates and again that communications challenge.
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05-10-2023, 01:47 PM
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Based on the freshman stat comparison, coffecan believes that Zimi would be playing for the Lakers right now had he just gone pro when it was obvious he was ready. Those freshman stats speak for themselves.
Freshman Zimi had everything the NBA is looking for...as did freshman 6'10" 220# Mustafa Amzil (9.9 ppg, 5.6 rbs, 38.2% FG 3s, 60.9% FG 2s, 76.5% FTs). Based on these stats, Mustafa coulda been a f'in 2021 lottery pick! Golden State would have loved him as the next Klay Thompson.
So that's 5 professionals that failed coffeecan...oh the humanity...
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan
You can say Grant should speed up the offense to favor Mike more
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One problem, the faster Mike played, the faster Mike fouled...
...which some may interpret as an additional qualification for 'pro' ball...
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05-10-2023, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
That's your response when confronted with a factual side by side comparison of Mike and Zimi? I am starting to wonder if there isn't something other than coaching that you don't like about Anthony Grant.
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My response clearly made in prior posts.
I believe Mike is a pro-level player and was not utilized in the scheme (becuase of CAG)
He was also called on to play PG due to injuries and a limited roster (because of CAG)
I completely understand why Mike transferred, and think he will excel at another school/overseas/whatever. Not here. He was a 4 star recruit, is 6'8", can handle the ball. But his strengths were not really utilized in the CAG system IMHO.
My point was originally made regarding Thibs and Obi - that this board seems to correctly point out that he misused Obi... but is quiet when it comes to how CAG used Mike.
I have nothing against CAG as a person. I just would like to see changes at the top of our program.
Not sure how Zimi and Bill Russell and Kobe got brought in to the discussion. You can agree or not, but those are my opinions.
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05-10-2023, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86
Teams are evaluating a young guy like Mike very differently than they are 30 year old players. One has room to grow and develop, the others are what they are at this point in their careers.
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Exactly. The point is.. how many A10 teams have guys testing NBA rosters? I'll wait.
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05-10-2023, 04:09 PM
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My point also isn't saying these 3 are NBA ready by any means. The point is Zimi isn't hitting up workouts. Malachi isn't testing draft waters.
The powers to be in the league do see potential in all three or they wouldn't be where they are at.
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05-10-2023, 04:28 PM
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There are currently 151 former A10 players in the Pros...26 in the NBA or G-League.
https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/c...10/in-the-pros
How many of them got any NBA looks is tough to determine but if I get time, I'll try to find something. My gut says more than you'd think...using Mike as an example of someone with potential, I'm pretty sure the number is large.
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05-10-2023, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
My response clearly made in prior posts.
I believe Mike is a pro-level player and was not utilized in the scheme (becuase of CAG)
He was also called on to play PG due to injuries and a limited roster (because of CAG)
I completely understand why Mike transferred, and think he will excel at another school/overseas/whatever. Not here. He was a 4 star recruit, is 6'8", can handle the ball. But his strengths were not really utilized in the CAG system IMHO.
My point was originally made regarding Thibs and Obi - that this board seems to correctly point out that he misused Obi... but is quiet when it comes to how CAG used Mike.
I have nothing against CAG as a person. I just would like to see changes at the top of our program.
Not sure how Zimi and Bill Russell and Kobe got brought in to the discussion. You can agree or not, but those are my opinions.
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Since nobody else is has brought it up I will. Are you suggesting that the offense should have been designed to facilitate Mike’s success? Because to me, and granted this is just me, I would think if your best player (arguably) is a feet in the paint big man at this stage of his career and your two best players (without argument), are frontcourt players, your offense would be designed to play through those guys, which it was, rather than to play at a pace that best suits your true freshman point guard who was only a starter due to injury. All the other comments about Mike fouling and turning the ball over more when he played fast is of course also true, but the suggestion that head coach messed up by not catering to Mike’s game is pretty crazy to me.
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05-10-2023, 05:33 PM
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I think Mike definitely plays professionally within the next year or two... not in the NBA. I actually think there is a way outside chance he could get drafted but only because of the roster change regarding 2-way players. Teams have been draft and stashing players for years. Teams could use the last 2 places on the roster as close to the same thing. But since it's new, my assumption would be that there's next to no chance of getting drafted.
That being said in the 2021-22 season, there were 540 players that played in the NBA, 136 of them were undrafted so not getting drafted is hardly a career ender for the NBA. Obviously, knowing the number of games played by the undrafted players would add needed context.
I think Coffeecan's insistence that AG did Mike a disservice by forcing him into a role he couldn't handle is shortsighted. The injuries dictated a portion but so did Mike's ability and upside. Even if we had another guard, it is just as reasonable to assume that the best 5 remaining players still would have Mike in the same position he was in last year. I'm sure he will disagree and write 73 posts doing so but I can't remember a time under ANY of our coaches where the 3rd or 4th option at PG was better or had more upside than Mike did last year.
I think other stuff but forgot.
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05-10-2023, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
Since nobody else is has brought it up I will. Are you suggesting that the offense should have been designed to facilitate Mike’s success? Because to me, and granted this is just me, I would think if your best player (arguably) is a feet in the paint big man at this stage of his career and your two best players (without argument), are frontcourt players, your offense would be designed to play through those guys, which it was, rather than to play at a pace that best suits your true freshman point guard who was only a starter due to injury. All the other comments about Mike fouling and turning the ball over more when he played fast is of course also true, but the suggestion that head coach messed up by not catering to Mike’s game is pretty crazy to me.
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Personally, I like an up tempo offense. CAGs system drives me nuts.
Not sure why any player... Mike included... that wants to play at the next level would want to be in that offense.
We had a very up tempo offense in 2020... by far the most up tempo under CAG.
Mike is not a post up player... are you saying Holmes and Camara are like Ewing and Olajuwan?
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05-11-2023, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Yes. I would sell you a red sweater, but I think you probably have dozens.
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I have a few red tee shirts; hate sweaters though I do have a few grey UD sweatshirts. You wouldn't be able to sell me a glass of cold water in he11.
By the way, you're fantasizing about MM being picked in round 2 of the NBA draft this year (notice how I skip the grandiose fantasy of round 1?); I doubt he'd be drafted in the 5th round if that even existed. I liked MM, thought he had promise but the old man (WHO PLAYED FOR THE HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS!) - gave him really bad advice. Usually, I think a parent would be able to provide sound advice worth listening to. In this case, probably because he wanted his kid to have the professional success he couldn't attain, that and likely impatience, led to this really poor decision. A quality NBA caliber player can adapt to ANY coaching/offensive play. MM defense was shall we say "challenged" - and this obvious fault was never even acknowledged by old dad. He wasn't even a 70% foul shooter and while he made some flashy passes, couldn't hit even 35% from the college 3 point arc. If he did poorly in school and cannot transfer; that would be even a worse scenario for him. I wish him the best but like most kids aspiring to the NBA, he's got a mountain of work to do yet - physical, mental and mechanical.
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05-11-2023, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67
I have a few red tee shirts; hate sweaters though I do have a few grey UD sweatshirts. You wouldn't be able to sell me a glass of cold water in he11.
By the way, you're fantasizing about MM being picked in round 2 of the NBA draft this year (notice how I skip the grandiose fantasy of round 1?); I doubt he'd be drafted in the 5th round if that even existed. I liked MM, thought he had promise but the old man (WHO PLAYED FOR THE HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS!) - gave him really bad advice. Usually, I think a parent would be able to provide sound advice worth listening to. In this case, probably because he wanted his kid to have the professional success he couldn't attain, that and likely impatience, led to this really poor decision. A quality NBA caliber player can adapt to ANY coaching/offensive play. MM defense was shall we say "challenged" - and this obvious fault was never even acknowledged by old dad. He wasn't even a 70% foul shooter and while he made some flashy passes, couldn't hit even 35% from the college 3 point arc. If he did poorly in school and cannot transfer; that would be even a worse scenario for him. I wish him the best but like most kids aspiring to the NBA, he's got a mountain of work to do yet - physical, mental and mechanical.
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I agree! He is far from polished, and is in no way ready for the NBA. His floor is playing overseas and if he gets into the right situation I can see him in the G League down the line.
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05-11-2023, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Personally, I like an up tempo offense. CAGs system drives me nuts.
Not sure why any player... Mike included... that wants to play at the next level would want to be in that offense.
We had a very up tempo offense in 2020... by far the most up tempo under CAG.
Mike is not a post up player... are you saying Holmes and Camara are like Ewing and Olajuwan?
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I think you can attribute our 2020 pace of play almost entirely to Obi. He was very quick and singlehandedly set the pace for the team. Given the injuries we had last year, (known and unknown) there was no way we could have come close to our 2020 pace of play.
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05-11-2023, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
1 out of 6. Cannot believe you are sticking up for Grant. Oh how the mighty have fallen
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Again, ad hominem makes it clear you have no actual valid points.
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05-11-2023, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
My response clearly made in prior posts.
I believe Mike is a pro-level player and was not utilized in the scheme (becuase of CAG)
He was also called on to play PG due to injuries and a limited roster (because of CAG)
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AT WHAT LEVEL??? Everyone knows he's a "pro level player", you're not making any valid point by repeating this.
It matters. Because if Mike plays in the 4th tier Australian league next year, it does NOT make AG look bad. At all.
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05-11-2023, 10:02 AM
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How good do you have to be to play 'Professional' basketball? Let me count the ways:
The A10 has 151 professional basketball players throughout the world.
The BIG has 227.
Tha ACC has 306.
The Big12 has 219.
The Big East has 202.
The PAC12 has 237.
The SEC has 314.
The Horizon has 69.
The MAC has 93.
The IVY has 28.
Combining every D1 conferences' current 'professionals', there are 3351 players making a living shooting hoops.
If you're interested...here are the UD professionals and their team:
Kostas - Turkish BSL
Alex Carmona (!!!??) - Puerto Rican BSN
Crutcher - G-League Swarm
Chris Johnson - Israeli BSL
Mikesell - French Jeep Elite
Devin Oliver - Japanese B-League
Dyshawn Pierre - Turkish BSL
Vee Sanford - Italian Serie A2
Jordan Sibert - Greek HEBA A1
Matej Svoboda - Czech NBL
Obi - Knicks
Jordy - G-League Wolves
Xerius Williams - Israeli BSL
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05-11-2023, 10:14 AM
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If Svoboda can play professional, then Mike can. The dude was terrible.
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05-11-2023, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72
If Svoboda can play professional, then Mike can. The dude was terrible.
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Yet somehow showed up on NBA future draft boards after we signed him, which shows you how useless many of those draft boards, especially three and four years out, can be.
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05-11-2023, 10:59 AM
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Here are a few former Dayton players:
Jhery Matos has been playing and most recently played in Spain 22-23.
Jalen Robinson most recently playing in Asia. Won the MVP of the All-AsiaBasket Tournament.
Devon Scott most recently in the Korean Basketball League
Alex Gavrilovic plays for BXNT league (I think In Russsia).
(Rob Lowery played professionally through the 21-22 season)
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05-11-2023, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Combining every D1 conferences' current 'professionals', there are 3351 players making a living shooting hoops.
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Don't forget the Lonzo (?) Ball's of the world who skipped D1 hoops, plus there are some good DII and DIII players who are EVERY BIT as good as the D1 conferences you listed.
So Coffee, I assume you're going to make a comment attacking rollo or AG as an ad hominem instead of admitting that being a "professional player" isn't really a terribly high bar?
Nor is it an incredibly high bar to have 3+ "professional players" on a single college team and not make the postseason - you know, like the Duke team coached by a legendary coach which you refuse to address?
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05-11-2023, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Combining every D1 conferences' current 'professionals', there are 3351 players making a living shooting hoops.
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I demand a FigStats recount
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05-11-2023, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
It does not matter whether Mike is or is not a pro. He could retire tomorrow and become a graphic designer for all I know or care...
And if he did, Grant still did not win an awful A10 with Holmes and Camara.
That is criminal.
Every team has injuries.
Why an open scholly?
Why the transfers out?
Where is the blame on how bad Blakney was?
Unbelievable. Red Sweater clearance in the bookstore I guess.
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OK. Fine. Point taken regarding Mike as a pro. I disagree - I think his handle and size is a rarity. But let's say Mike was never at UD. I would still argue that it was a coaching failure that we did not make the postseason last year with the team that we had in Holmes and Camara, especially in the A10 last year.
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05-11-2023, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Lifelong Flyer Fan
Here are a few former Dayton players:
Jhery Matos has been playing and most recently played in Spain 22-23.
Jalen Robinson most recently playing in Asia. Won the MVP of the All-AsiaBasket Tournament.
Devon Scott most recently in the Korean Basketball League
Alex Gavrilovic plays for BXNT league (I think In Russsia).
(Rob Lowery played professionally through the 21-22 season)
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Darryl Davis is playing professionally in Sweden.
John Crosby is playing professionally in Qatar.
Other members of the 2017-18 Flyers who previously played professionally are Josh Cunningham and Sir Trey Landers.
So why don't we have multiple NCAA Championship banners flying in the Arena rafters?? Darn near the entire 2017-18 roster are/were PROFESSIONALS! The 2 who weren't include Jordan Davis (who just finished his NCAA career at Jacksonville and certainly will be a professional in 2023-24) and Jordan Pierce (transferred to Tenn - Martin).
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05-11-2023, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
...plus there are some good DII and DIII players who are EVERY BIT as good as the D1 conferences you listed.
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The 2022 D3 Player of the Year was Ryan Turell (Yeshiva College) and he plays for NBA G-League.
2021 D3 had no POY due to Covid.
The 2020 D3 POY Nate West plays professionally in Sweden.
2019 D3 POY Booker Coplin plays professionally for Germany Pro-A.
Etc..
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05-11-2023, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
OK. Fine. Point taken regarding Mike as a pro. I disagree - I think his handle and size is a rarity. But let's say Mike was never at UD. I would still argue that it was a coaching failure that we did not make the postseason last year with the team that we had in Holmes and Camara, especially in the A10 last year.
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OK fair enough.
I would argue we had everything we needed to be a top 15 team in the front court with Holmes and Camara (and Amzil). Really, really good college players.
But I would also argue that this is really important:
-Out of 34 games, Mali started 16 and played injured all year.
-Out of 34 games, Elvis started 17 and played injured all year.
-Brea played injured all year, and missed the most important games of the season (pre-conference).
-Blakney screwed the pooch by shooting 24% from 3 after shooting 36% and 35% the first 2 years.
That's it, that's your guard play and quasi-guard play. Leading to:
-That left a weak, 31% shooting, unprepared freshman to share PG duties with a walkon (who played 18 games).
No guards, no penetration, no shooting leaves a 1 dimensional team who had to limit possessions and could only throw it to Holmes / Camara and hope for the best.
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05-11-2023, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Lifelong Flyer Fan
Here are a few former Dayton players:
Jhery Matos has been playing and most recently played in Spain 22-23.
Jalen Robinson most recently playing in Asia. Won the MVP of the All-AsiaBasket Tournament.
Devon Scott most recently in the Korean Basketball League
Alex Gavrilovic plays for BXNT league (I think In Russsia).
(Rob Lowery played professionally through the 21-22 season)
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Granted, these guys are all playing "professionally," but, correct me if I'm wrong, there are 3-4-5-6? levels of professional basketball outside of the US. Here, there are 2 levels. Do any of the professional levels even equate to the G League here?? I'm asking because I don't follow anything beyond the NBA. And, I barely follow the NBA.
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05-11-2023, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
John Crosby is playing professionally in Qatar.
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UD is so good, we had professional players on our team who couldn't even get on the court.
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Personally, I like an up tempo offense. CAGs system drives me nuts.
Not sure why any player... Mike included... that wants to play at the next level would want to be in that offense.
We had a very up tempo offense in 2020... by far the most up tempo under CAG.
Mike is not a post up player... are you saying Holmes and Camara are like Ewing and Olajuwan?
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Personally, I don't care what you like. I care what is best for the team based on all the circumstances (personnel, injuries, etc...). Did you ever think that maybe the reason we were more up tempo in 2019 is because we had the personnel to do it? Like a good point guard, shooters, and a big that beat everyone down the floor? Everything is very simple in your world, it must be nice.
Last edited by Flyers98; 05-12-2023 at 05:07 PM..
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05-12-2023, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
Personally, I don't care what you like. I care what is best for the team based on all the circumstances (personnel, injuries, etc...). Did you ever think that maybe the reason we were more up tempo in 2019 is because we had the personnel to do it? Like a good point guard, shooters, and a big that beat everyone down the floor? Everything is very simple in your world, it must be nice.
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Agreed. Not sure why really good players keep signing on to play here. More top notch players than I've seen in 45 years. Maybe it's time to resurrect the term dumb jocks?
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05-12-2023, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
Agreed. Not sure why really good players keep signing on to play here. More top notch players than I've seen in 45 years. Maybe it's time to resurrect the term dumb jocks?
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AG signed more top notch players than you’ve seen in 45 years and he’s made 1 NCAA tournament appearance in six seasons in a rapidly eroding A10
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05-12-2023, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
Personally, I don't care what you like. I care what is best for the team based on all the circumstances (personnel, injuries, etc...). Did you ever think that maybe the reason we were more up tempo in 2019 is because we had the personnel to do it? Like a good point guard, shooters, and a big that beat everyone down the floor? Everything is very simple in your world, it must be nice.
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Maybe if we had a different coach with a different philosophy and different offense we could actually make the postseason, other than the year we caught lightning in a bottle.
Again, just my opinion.
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05-12-2023, 07:43 PM
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Possessions per 40 mins
2023 354th (out of 365)
2022 344th (out of 358)
2021 305th (out of 357)
2020 220th (out of 353)
2019 322th (out of 353)
2018 267th (out of 351)
Yes, I know there are teams that are successful at this tempo. But we are not one of them. It took a generational team to even get to half of the tempo the rest of basketball was playing.
If we have such a great team every year, and have such a great coach, along with arguably the two best players in the conference, why are we playing at such a slow tempo? Why limit possessions?
And it is like this every year. EVERY year. And it does not work.
We try to be this long team with a height advantage and then we wonder why we cant shoot.
I am not saying we need to be the showtime Lakers... but maybe it is time we play a different style.
Again, just my opinion. Have a *****in weekend.
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05-12-2023, 08:13 PM
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This just in:
Coach Grant is STILL returning....
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05-12-2023, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
AG signed more top notch players than you’ve seen in 45 years and he’s made 1 NCAA tournament appearance in six seasons in a rapidly eroding A10
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Can you stay on topic or do you have to trash AG when anything positive is said about the players or the team?
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05-12-2023, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
Can you stay on topic or do you have to trash AG when anything positive is said about the players or the team?
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Who trashed AG? I stated a fact and your opinion (that I probably agree! but I haven’t been alive for 45 years)
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05-13-2023, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
Personally, I don't care what you like. I care what is best for the team based on all the circumstances (personnel, injuries, etc...). Did you ever think that maybe the reason we were more up tempo in 2019 is because we had the personnel to do it? Like a good point guard, shooters, and a big that beat everyone down the floor? Everything is very simple in your world, it must be nice.
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Who recruits the personnel? If my most successful team had a certain personnel then I would think I would recruit that kind of personnel again. And to be honest I'm not sure we didn't have the kind of personnel last year that could have played at a better pace. All year I had hear announcers and analysts say how great Camara and Holmes were as rim runners, yet we rarely got out on the break...and that was by design.
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05-13-2023, 01:23 PM
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We should have played much faster. Every coach knows when you have injured, turnover prone, and foul prone guards, the key to winning is going FASTER.
Instead of people complaining about how dumb AG is for being 149th in the country for turnovers per game (12.1) playing slow, if we had just played faster, people could have complained about how dumb AG was for being 300th (13.5) in turnovers and playing fast with no guards.
Can you imagine 1.5 additional turnovers per game with this team playing fast? Yeah.
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05-13-2023, 02:59 PM
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It could be they had more turnovers because they had to execute their halfcourt offense versus get getting easy looks in transition
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05-13-2023, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
It could be they had more turnovers because they had to execute their halfcourt offense versus get getting easy looks in transition
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It could be that AG never thought "hey what if we got easy points instead of working hard for them?"
Maybe not one of his assistants mentioned free points. All season.
It seems so obvious when you say it out loud. I'll bet he feels really dumb right about now!
Yeah. That is probably it.
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05-13-2023, 05:50 PM
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When UD misses the NCAA tournament next year and Coach Grant has made one NCAA tournament appearance in last 10 seasons as a head coach, then maybe his coaching will be open to criticism
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05-13-2023, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
When UD misses the NCAA tournament next year and Coach Grant has made one NCAA tournament appearance in last 10 seasons as a head coach, then maybe his coaching will be open to criticism
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Don't bet on it.
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05-14-2023, 01:51 AM
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There will always be an excuse for missing the NCAAs for most people on this board. I also expect the Archie bashing to get worse next year as an attempt to prop up AG
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05-15-2023, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
AG signed more top notch players than you’ve seen in 45 years and he’s made 1 NCAA tournament appearance in six seasons in a rapidly eroding A10
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Um....coaching?
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05-16-2023, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
When UD misses the NCAA tournament next year and Coach Grant has made one NCAA tournament appearance in last 10 seasons as a head coach, then maybe his coaching will be open to criticism
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Yeah . . . because no one is criticizing him now
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05-21-2023, 04:48 PM
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Bump
I love seeing this thread title at the top of my feed
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05-29-2023, 03:27 PM
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C'mon DaRon - we need to see your name next to Coach Grant in this thread title!
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05-31-2023, 09:33 PM
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Make It So!
Coach Grant & DaRon Holmes returning next season!
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06-01-2023, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Holmes is either getting drafted or playing in the G League (0-fer-1)
Camara is either getting drafted or playing in the G League, possibly also in Europe (Capt Obvious didn't leave a whole lot of wiggle room here, so I'll give him 1-fer-2)
Mike is either getting drafted or playing overseas and then getting drafted the year after. (1-fer-3)
... but CAG is a great coach because he could not make the postseason AGAIN with NBA level talent. (A 2023-24 Post Season bid makes you 2-fer-4)
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06-01-2023, 08:02 AM
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If CAG was not returning you can all but guarantee Holmes would not have returned to UD.
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06-01-2023, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
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Holmes not getting drafted was his call. If he would have stayed in he would have been drafted.
And you forgot to quote that it was "just my opinion"... which is what it remains... on a message board.
But hey, 2 out of 4? OK fine. Whatever.
Last edited by CoffeeCan; 06-01-2023 at 10:39 AM..
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06-01-2023, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cj
If CAG was not returning you can all but guarantee Holmes would not have returned to UD.
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Yes, pretty clear from his Dad’s comments that this coaching staff was the main reason he returned to UD.
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06-01-2023, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TA111
Yes, pretty clear from his Dad’s comments that this coaching staff was the main reason he returned to UD.
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If you take any player (from any team) who is between the draft and returning and remove the coach I think it is fair to say that it would negatively impact the player returning to college.
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06-01-2023, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cj
If CAG was not returning you can all but guarantee Holmes would not have returned to UD.
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This is a really good point.
I think there was an argument to be made that this offseason--given all the roster turnover--was a good time to rip off the band-aid and move on from Grant. It seemed like almost a full-on reset, so why not go get your new coach and let him build from ground-up?
Holmes returning changes everything and gives next year promise. And in college basketball, where it''s increasingly a one-year proposition, this means a lot. You need to go for it every year. There's no building for the future. It's go get what you need and win now.
Grant and staff now have the preseason conference POY and a likely favorite to win the conference. Let's ride!
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06-01-2023, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
If you take any player (from any team) who is between the draft and returning and remove the coach I think it is fair to say that it would negatively impact the player returning to college.
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Fair point but he also could have left if AG stayed but didn’t despite what sounds like much more money, exposure, prestige etc. yet didn’t which speaks very loudly for AG, the man, the coach, his culture and his coaching ability to at least this super star and his parents.
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06-01-2023, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
Fair point but he also could have left if AG stayed but didn’t despite what sounds like much more money, exposure, prestige etc. yet didn’t which speaks very loudly for AG, the man, the coach, his culture and his coaching ability to at least this super star and his parents.
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Exactly, he is returning to UD versus any other school specifically because he (and his family) believe that this coaching staff and environment give him the best chance to develop and succeed.
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06-01-2023, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
Fair point but he also could have left if AG stayed but didn’t despite what sounds like much more money, exposure, prestige etc. yet didn’t which speaks very loudly for AG, the man, the coach, his culture and his coaching ability to at least this super star and his parents.
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Agreed.
Not going to be a 1st rounder, so come back to a stable situation with familiar surroundings and the same coach make a ton of sense.
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06-01-2023, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
Agreed.
Not going to be a 1st rounder, so come back to a stable situation with familiar surroundings and the same coach make a ton of sense.
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Worth mentioning that this gives Grant and Holmes another year of exposure and another year of hype to recruit off of.
I don't think it changes anything dramatically, but you have to hope Grant can translate Holmes as a potential A10 POY and 1st round pick, Obi, the success with Florida bigs (and Toumani to a lesser extent) into another big time recruit or transfer.
The vacancy is almost assured, and you can point directly at Holmes and Obi.
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06-01-2023, 01:29 PM
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I play, Coach stays. He goes I go.
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