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Old 03-27-2017, 11:16 AM
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Crean vs Archie

DUDE ANOTHER COACHING THREAD?
Yes, I know we have a lot of coaching threads but I think this one is worthy of its own topic. As Archie Miller fans, I think it's worth looking at exactly what Archie has to do to outperform Tom Crean who was fired before him. And as Dayton fans, l think it's worth thinking about how we might feel about Tom Crean coaching Dayton since he is available for hire, and also as a means of examining expectations at Dayton vs Indiana. The purpose of this thread is all of that.

ARCHIE VS CREAN, A COMPARISON
First, let us compare what Archie has done at Dayton vs what Tom Crean has done at Indiana. Since this is a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, let's start with their records since 2011-12 (Archie's first season).

ARCHIE MILLER
W-L 139-63
NCAA Tourneys: 4
NCAA W-L: 5-4
Sweet 16s: 1
Elite 8s: 1

TOM CREAN
W-L 138-69
NCAA Tourneys: 4
NCAA W-L: 6-4
Sweet 16s: 3
Elite 8s: 0

CONCLUSIONS AND QUESTIONS

CONCLUSION A: Archie Miller's results at Dayton would likely get him fired at Indiana.

QUESTION A: Will Archie be able to do better than Crean, delivering the final fours and championships that Indiana expects, or will he fall short of that mark, and thus get canned?

CONCLUSION B: If Tom Crean did at Dayton what he did at Indiana, he would be getting a raise, and absolutely not getting fired.

QUESTION B: Could Tom Crean do at Dayton what he did at Indiana (multiple sweet 16s) or even what he did at Marquette (a final four)? And as a follow up to that question, would you as a Flyer Fan be excited to find out?
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:21 AM
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I read this in an article earlier today and thought, "wow, they fired this guy over this record."
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I read this in an article earlier today and thought, "wow, they fired this guy over this record."
It's all about expectations and meeting them.
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:31 AM
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Expectations are measured by results relative to resources. Crean had more resources than Archie, but delivered similar results. Archie also did it with suspensions and the Big Steve tragedy. The results were the same, but Crean was setup for success more than Archie - which is why he gets fired and Archie gets rewarded.
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:40 AM
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Side by side, very similar results, other than Crean's (3) Sweet 16's.

BUT, Archie did so much more with less.

I can't say whether Crean deserved to be fired and what the expectations are at IU. And nobody can honestly tell you what the expectations are for Archie at IU - because they are not going to be specifically spelled out in black and white - B10 championship by when?, Elite 8 by when?, NCAA's EVERY YEAR no excuses?, Final Four by when?.

Expectations usually don't get fleshed out until after a coach has been fired. So if Archie ever gets fired, then we'll know what the expectations are/were based on what he did and didn't do.

I am at best intrigued by Crean to Dayton, but not overly excited.
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Expectations are measured by results relative to resources. Crean had more resources than Archie, but delivered similar results. Archie also did it with suspensions and the Big Steve tragedy. The results were the same, but Crean was setup for success more than Archie - which is why he gets fired and Archie gets rewarded.
I prefer to look at it as the guy who ends up coaching Dayton, gets the ultimate prize. If it takes getting fired at Indiana to get you to Dayton, that's not so bad, right? So why not hire Crean to take us on a magical run to the final four as he did with Marquette, thereby making Indiana so jealous that they fire Archie and re-hire Crean. When that happens, we can get Archie back for at least a few years until it's time to trade back for Crean. Crean's 51 now so this can't go on forever, but 15 years or so of trading back and forth with Indiana might be enough to net us a championship. Worth a shot, right?
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:54 AM
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Fine with both Kuwik, paying Ostrom a fatter check as an associate, or Crean...my only concern is how Crean couldn't recruit in IN. Did he not show enough luv to the high school coaches?...or what did he do to **** them off?....lessons be learned and come back with an edge?
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
QUESTION B: Could Tom Crean do at Dayton what he did at Indiana (multiple sweet 16s) or even what he did at Marquette (a final four)? And as a follow up to that question, would you as a Flyer Fan be excited to find out?

Yes, I think so. Crean gets a bad rap mostly because of internet trolls and because of Indiana's large and intolerant fan base. I've even seen Indiana fans (who appeared to be sweater vest types or boosters) yelling directly at Crean that he literally "ruined the program," which is a bit over the top. I mean, we're not looking at JOB here. He had to deal with a lot of background noise and distractions (especially in recent years), which almost certainly affected his team's performance. Yes, that's part of every major program, but much less so at UD, which could be the perfect antidote for Tom Crean.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:02 PM
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I think they fired Crean because they were tired of the fans yelling. He, rightfully so, had a rough start. He had 2 players when he got to Indiana and knew it will be a build. The alums were steamed. They never really let up. Whatever he produced if it was short of getting to final four wasn't good enough. The alums think it can be like the Bob Knight glory days and win national titles. It can it they get a great coach. I guess we will find out if Archie is one of the greats. Sean for all his success has never made the final 4.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
I am at best intrigued by Crean to Dayton, but not overly excited.
At the end of the day, the case for any coach is made on the court. So here's Crean's overall resume:

Overall 356–231 (.606)
Tournaments (NCAA): 11–8
(NIT) 2–3
NCAA Regional – Final Four (2003)
C-USA regular season championship (2003)
2Χ Big Ten regular season championships (2013, 2016)
2Χ C-USA Coach of the Year (2002, 2003)
Big Ten Coach of the Year (2016)

Personally, I think that's pretty good.

But Tom Crean might just be better off the court, then he is on it. Very cool of him to show up to Assembly Hall yesterday after he was fired just days earlier to support the women's program in an NIT game. But that's really not all that surprising. Tom Crean is a great man, and whatever you think of his coaching abilities, would represent the university well.

Here's a nice writeup on Tom Crean, the man and the quiet, random acts of kindness he is known for: http://www.indystar.com/story/sports...ness/32204753/
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:03 PM
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Idk if this article on Crean has been posted or not but it's a very good read; both on the man and Indiana.

http://www.si.com/college-basketball...-john-harbaugh

I also want to make sure I acknowledge and give credit to, I believe it was Rollo, who said something in the order in one of these threads that UD is now in a position where we don't have to go hire the next "up and coming" assistant coach; that we should be beyond this mentality. I couldn't agree more.

If the University was willing to make Archie a top-10 paid coach, then why not take that approach with our next hire? Not everyone on this board is going to all agree with the next hire, regardless. Grant, Kuwik, Osrtom, an asst elsewhere, Forbes, McCall, (Harper ) but if I'm given the opportunity to spend the University's money, I would without a doubt make a call to Crean to gauge his interest. He said in this article (http://www.si.com/college-basketball...hoosiers-fired ) that its all about alignment:

“A good job, a great job, those all come down to the alignment. Resources are important. Facilities are important. Tradition is important. Fan bases are important. Where can you recruit is important. But alignment is key. That, for me, is what you’re looking for.”

As I put on my rose colored UD glasses to read that article, I could make a case that he could be speaking of UD. Anyway, I appreciate reading everyone's thoughts and while I know not everyone would be in favor of Crean I think it would be remised if UD didn't give him a call.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
Yes, I think so. Crean gets a bad rap mostly because of internet trolls and because of Indiana's large and intolerant fan base. I've even seen Indiana fans (who appeared to be sweater vest types or boosters) yelling directly at Crean that he literally "ruined the program," which is a bit over the top.
Yeah. I'd say "ruined the program" is definitely a bit of the over-top. Now, if they want to yell that at Kelvin Sampson, then by all means.... Totally fair.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:09 PM
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If we get crean UD arena would have regular visits from the Harbaugh brothers. That would be fun
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:14 PM
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Crean had a hard time recruiting in IN IL OH, I'll repeat IN, what Knight did well....maybe he thought he didn't need to, don't know. But that seems one of the bigger gripes about him...
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
At the end of the day, the case for any coach is made on the court. So here's Crean's overall resume:

Overall 356–231 (.606)
Tournaments (NCAA): 11–8
(NIT) 2–3
NCAA Regional – Final Four (2003)
C-USA regular season championship (2003)
2Χ Big Ten regular season championships (2013, 2016)
2Χ C-USA Coach of the Year (2002, 2003)
Big Ten Coach of the Year (2016)

Personally, I think that's pretty good.

But Tom Crean might just be better off the court, then he is on it. Very cool of him to show up to Assembly Hall yesterday after he was fired just days earlier to support the women's program in an NIT game. But that's really not all that surprising. Tom Crean is a great man, and whatever you think of his coaching abilities, would represent the university well.

Here's a nice writeup on Tom Crean, the man and the quiet, random acts of kindness he is known for: http://www.indystar.com/story/sports...ness/32204753/
I think you also have to add what members of the Big East think of whoever we hire. A Final Four at Marquette has to be something that can help UD in the eyes of any conference expansion plans.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sitdowndigger View Post
Fine with both Kuwik, paying Ostrom a fatter check as an associate, or Crean...my only concern is how Crean couldn't recruit in IN. Did he not show enough luv to the high school coaches?...or what did he do to **** them off?....lessons be learned and come back with an edge?
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From what I have been told, there are a lot of politics involved when it comes to recruiting in Indiana. Even Bob Knight stopped recruiting Indiana kids towards the end of his run there. With that said, Crean could have recruited Indiana better, but he did just fine recruiting nationally.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sitdowndigger View Post
Crean had a hard time recruiting in IN IL OH, I'll repeat IN, what Knight did well....maybe he thought he didn't need to, don't know. But that seems one of the bigger gripes about him...
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because the fans were constantly complaining. As a recruit would you want to walk into that?
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by UDEE79 View Post
If we get crean UD arena would have regular visits from the Harbaugh brothers. That would be fun
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Wouldn't surprise me to see Dwyane Wade once he hangs it up hanging around Crean's next gig... Imagine putting that guy on staff and letting him recruit. Dayton may never lose another recruiting battle in Chicago... or anywhere else for that matter.

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Old 03-27-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I think you also have to add what members of the Big East think of whoever we hire. A Final Four at Marquette has to be something that can help UD in the eyes of any conference expansion plans.

Also noteworthy is that Crean's Final Four run occurred while Marquette was in Conference USA, and they joined the Big East a couple years later on Crean's watch.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DaytonDecibelDungeon View Post
Idk if this article on Crean has been posted or not but it's a very good read; both on the man and Indiana.

http://www.si.com/college-basketball...-john-harbaugh
I'm from Indiana originally and while I'm not an IU fan, I have family and friends who are, so I follow them pretty closely. I'm not a Crean fan. His teams have been dismal on the defensive side of the ball. I was watching a game with my brother and nephew this past season and couldn't believe the amount of dribbling around the perimeter and lack of ball movement. My brother's response, "that's Crean's offense." So, Tom Crean is well down on my meaningless list

Having said that, this is an excellent article. You feel for someone in his situation. I'll be disappointed if we were to hire Crean but, I'll get over that disappointment in a hurry if he is able to win at UD. The article also helps me in understanding what Archie means when he talks about the support that he has received from the UD administration. It makes you wonder whether Archie will receive this same type of support during his tenure at IU.

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Old 03-27-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Sticks 'n Stearns View Post
I'm from Indiana originally and while I'm not an IU fan, I have family and friends who are, so I follow them pretty closely. I'm not a Crean fan. His teams have been dismal on the defensive side of the ball. I was watching a game with my brother and nephew this past season and couldn't believe the amount of dribbling around the perimeter and lack of ball movement. My brother's response, "that's Crean's offense." So, Tom Crean is well down on my meaningless list.
This is basically the argument against. Crean's offense is Izzo's offense which is Brian Gregory's offense that we all found rather offensive. I don't want a return to BG. But I think Crean is a better coach than BG...

Anthony Grant basketball for example would definitely be more exciting, but at the end of the day winning games - no matter in what fashion - is exciting.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:00 PM
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I just don't like the Izzo coaching tree. Crean might be the only one from that tree that has had the kind of success we want.

Hire somebody from the Sendek/Matta/Archie tree. Those guys have a much better track record.

And Anthony Grant I really fell will not get us to the next level.

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Old 03-27-2017, 01:02 PM
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I liked Archie, but honestly, I feel like IU took a step backward, and if Crean were to coach UD, I believe UD takes a step forward. I would still prefer to stay in house, but wouldn't complain.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:07 PM
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I am hoping Crean, but I would be happy with Grant, and I do trust our guys to get it right.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Hire somebody from the Sendek/Matta/Archie tree. Those guys have a much better track record.
Dayton could hire Jeff Boals off that tree. He and Kuwik are buds and coached together. So that might be a sneaky way to get some continuity while still bringing in an external candidate.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:22 PM
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Has a "coaching swap" ever happened in the NCAA. I am sure it has but just wondering.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Has a "coaching swap" ever happened in the NCAA. I am sure it has but just wondering.
Oh yeah, for sure. These guys swap wives all the time.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Oh yeah, for sure. These guys swap wives all the time.
Which is why the head coach always and only gets a membership to DCC!
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Oh yeah, for sure. These guys swap wives all the time.
Have Fritz Peterson and Mike Kekich become college basketball coaches???
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:20 PM
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I agree AM did more with less than Crean.

So since it is "what have you done for me now time".

Would you expect MK @ Duke to have Duke where they are if all of a sudden you took away all those MikeyD All American and 5* players and for the foreseeable future?

I know at one time he obviously was able to produce at Duke early in his career but what about now? Does he still have it or is it easier now with all that coming in?

So will it be easier for AM now using the same thought process? Harder for Crean at UD?
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:44 PM
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When I heard of Archie bolting, the first coach I thought about was Crean. Primarily because he is a household name in College Basketball. Crean probably never had so good as when he was at Marquette - and they were always good when he was there, before and after DWade. I just hate to start over with an unproven young assistant that may fail horribly or leave if really successful.
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
I agree AM did more with less than Crean.

So since it is "what have you done for me now time".

Would you expect MK @ Duke to have Duke where they are if all of a sudden you took away all those MikeyD All American and 5* players and for the foreseeable future?

I know at one time he obviously was able to produce at Duke early in his career but what about now? Does he still have it or is it easier now with all that coming in?

So will it be easier for AM now using the same thought process? Harder for Crean at UD?
Sometimes it's far easier to do more with less as you have guys buying into the program and not believing they should all be getting 15-20 shots a game. Teams start getting into the top 10-15 recruiting class rankings and their are far more 4-5 star players that believe they're the man.
The 2nd key to that is the development which Archie did a great job. Take a 3 star kid who is a nice athlete, watch him develop physically, develop him on and off the court and that kid comes to play nightly..
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:56 PM
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Since IU did not hire him, go after Billy Donovan. I would rate him higher than Ray Harper.
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Old 03-27-2017, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
Since IU did not hire him, go after Billy Donovan. I would rate him higher than Ray Harper.
That's two jokes right there if you're scoring at home!
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Old 03-27-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I think you also have to add what members of the Big East think of whoever we hire. A Final Four at Marquette has to be something that can help UD in the eyes of any conference expansion plans.
hate to say it but until we mend fences with X we won't be getting into the NBE. Not sure what happened to the relationship, is it Mack or the AD or both but the relationship soured.
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Old 03-27-2017, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
I agree AM did more with less than Crean.

So since it is "what have you done for me now time".

Would you expect MK @ Duke to have Duke where they are if all of a sudden you took away all those MikeyD All American and 5* players and for the foreseeable future?

I know at one time he obviously was able to produce at Duke early in his career but what about now? Does he still have it or is it easier now with all that coming in?

So will it be easier for AM now using the same thought process? Harder for Crean at UD?
Watching this past years team we were a better team when we were short and the next man up came into play. We won like six games without Cooke, he comes back and we lose the next game.

Archie nailed it when he said we lost our edge when were at full strength. That would probably require a psychologist to figure out the why's and wherefores.
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Old 03-27-2017, 03:48 PM
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http://www.si.com/college-basketball...hoosiers-fired
Interesting article on Crean. The money quote is "that wasn't enough for Glass who set an unusually high bar for Crean's successor." Man, that is very high expectations. The next few years should be interesting in Bloomington.
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Old 03-27-2017, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Watching this past years team we were a better team when we were short and the next man up came into play. We won like six games without Cooke, he comes back and we lose the next game.

Archie nailed it when he said we lost our edge when were at full strength. That would probably require a psychologist to figure out the why's and wherefores.
Which is why I say that KenPom can never be used as a determining factor for tournament bids.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
http://www.si.com/college-basketball...hoosiers-fired
Interesting article on Crean. The money quote is "that wasn't enough for Glass who set an unusually high bar for Crean's successor." Man, that is very high expectations. The next few years should be interesting in Bloomington.
Crean was maybe the 5th best coach in the Big Ten. That was not good enough for IU's fans, and I think I agree with them. They should expect more. Archie will do a lot better than Crean did IMO.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:22 PM
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I will just go ahead and say it, I can definitely see Archie winning the national championship at IU. He might win multiple national championships there.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
That's two jokes right there if you're scoring at home!
Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
Since IU did not hire him, go after Billy Donovan. I would rate him higher than Ray Harper.
In joking this tells you a bit about UD's situation. A big name coach is on nobody's radar. Only assistants, fired coaches and coaches from lower rated leagues.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Crean was maybe the 5th best coach in the Big Ten. That was not good enough for IU's fans, and I think I agree with them. They should expect more. Archie will do a lot better than Crean did IMO.
Hmmm... Izzo and Beilein for sure. Thad I guess but he's fading. I really like the Illinois hire, Brad Underwood, but he hasn't proven it. Probably forgetting someone, but yeah in that 4-5 range I guess. Again, I don't know that Archie really vaults them up the rankings there. But they are getting younger at the position, so there's that. Put Tom Crean in the atlantic 10 though, and he's definitely top three, and you could make a case for number one.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I will just go ahead and say it, I can definitely see Archie winning the national championship at IU. He might win multiple national championships there.
He may need to in order,to keep his job.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
In joking this tells you a bit about UD's situation. A big name coach is on nobody's radar. Only assistants, fired coaches and coaches from lower rated leagues.
Circle of life, man. You ever seen the Lion King?

When a program needs to hire a coach, those places are where you look. What did mighty Indiana do? They hired Dayton's coach from a lower rated league. How did Dayton rise up to become a power? They lost a coach to a higher rated league, and hired an assistant who turned out to be a better coach than the one they lost. So now Dayton needs to find another assistant, previously fired, or coach of a lesser program that wants to move up.

Circle of life.

Hakuna matata.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
hate to say it but until we mend fences with X we won't be getting into the NBE. Not sure what happened to the relationship, is it Mack or the AD or both but the relationship soured.
Hard to say. I'm sure we haven't been the best sports about the rivalry. At the same time, while we may have recruited a "gangsta" or 2 along the way, X recruited hot dogs like Burrell, Holloway, Lyons, et al who just rubbed a lot of salt in an open wound.

Now we're at the point where we need to win enough (and get far enough in the NCAA in the future) to pressure the NBE and Fox Sports to admit us despite X's objections. As the saying goes, money talks and "bolshevik" walks, and we're going to have to prove to be enough of a money-maker in the future for the NBE to even consider admitting us. And that may not come until the end of their current TV deal, when they'll need more NCAA-related tournament cash.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Hmmm... Izzo and Beilein for sure. Thad I guess but he's fading. I really like the Illinois hire, Brad Underwood, but he hasn't proven it. Probably forgetting someone, but yeah in that 4-5 range I guess. Again, I don't know that Archie really vaults them up the rankings there. But they are getting younger at the position, so there's that. Put Tom Crean in the atlantic 10 though, and he's definitely top three, and you could make a case for number one.
Michigan State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan, and then Indiana.

All 4 won a title or went to the Final 4 at least once/sometimes multiple times during Crean's tenure. TC never got past the Sweet 16.

If I am an IU fan, I probably think it should be IU and MSU battling for the top spot every year.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by UDEE79 View Post
If we get crean UD arena would have regular visits from the Harbaugh brothers. That would be fun
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Michigan State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan, and then Indiana.

All 4 won a title or went to the Final 4 at least once/sometimes multiple times during Crean's tenure. TC never got past the Sweet 16.

If I am an IU fan, I probably think it should be IU and MSU battling for the top spot every year.
Something is wrong here.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Michigan State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan, and then Indiana.

All 4 won a title or went to the Final 4 at least once/sometimes multiple times during Crean's tenure. TC never got past the Sweet 16.

If I am an IU fan, I probably think it should be IU and MSU battling for the top spot every year.
It was presented that Crean was 5th best coach in the Big Ten and that's pretty much what I was saying - Izzo at Michigan State, Beilein at Michigan and Matta (fading) at Ohio State. So 4 at best right now though I love Illinois' hire Brad Underwood. Without a doubt Bo Ryan at Wisconsin would be right up there at the top as you say as well but Bo retired, and I don't think anyone is ready to anoint Greg Gard as an elite coach. Have to see how he fares without Bo Ryan's recruits.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Michigan State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan, and then Indiana.

All 4 won a title or went to the Final 4 at least once/sometimes multiple times during Crean's tenure. TC never got past the Sweet 16.

If I am an IU fan, I probably think it should be IU and MSU battling for the top spot every year.
No Big Ten team has won a title since 2000.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:10 PM
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Flyer Fans! Tell me if I'm wrong about this: if we go young (never been a head coach or little HCing experience), like we did with Archie, Gregory, and Jim O'Brien - I think they represent each of three possible outcomes.

O'Brien: it turns out really bad.

Gregory: it turns out all right, not great, not bad, A little hot, a little cold, mostly lukewarm.

Miller: really good, bordering on great.

At this point are you willing to take your chances on which result we get?

This is why I prefer Tom Crean. He would definitely cost a lot more than any of these current young assistant coaches that are available. But who would you rather have to talk to the existing recruits and future recruits? I would prefer a household name. Someone who's been to the final four. I think we've earned the right to hire a seasoned, but expensive coach. And don't you believe that he would have a chip on his shoulder every single day, wanting to prove Indiana wrong?

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Old 03-27-2017, 06:29 PM
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You forgot Donoher
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:35 PM
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I agree and we need to do it immediately. Everyday that goes by and more schools reach out to UD recruits via family and friends hurts our chances to keep them committed. Rumor is Minn and Indiana have talked with Wright's "people" already. What the heck!

I would have LOVED to up-staged UIs news conference with our own today at noon. It would have been awesome if you think about it. But if we get it done in the next 48 hours I will be happy. UD is the best job out there right now. Georgetown is probably second most attractive. Our list can't be that long. No offense to AM, but it's time to take over this news cycle.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Townie View Post
You forgot Donoher
I didn't forget - just used the last 3 "young" hires to show possible outcomes. Donoher would be Archie type results.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I agree and we need to do it immediately. Everyday that goes by and more schools reach out to UD recruits via family and friends hurts our chances to keep them committed. Rumor is Minn and Indiana have talked with Wright's "people" already. What the heck!

I would have LOVED to up-staged UIs news conference with our own today at noon. It would have been awesome if you think about it. But if we get it done in the next 48 hours I will be happy. UD is the best job out there right now. Georgetown is probably second most attractive. Our list can't be that long. No offense to AM, but it's time to take over this news cycle.
100% Agree!!!!
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Flyer Fans! Tell me if I'm wrong about this: if we go young (never been a head coach), like we did with Archie, Gregory, and Jim O'Brien - I think they represent each of three possible outcomes.

O'Brien: it turns out really bad.

Gregory: it turns out all right, not great, not bad, A little hot, a little cold, mostly lukewarm.

Miller: really good, bordering on great.

At this point are you willing to take your chances on which result we get?

This is why I prefer Tom Crean. He would definitely cost a lot more than any of these current young assistant coaches that are available. But who would you rather have to talk to the existing recruits and future recruits? I would prefer a household name. Someone who's been to the final four. I think we've earned the right to hire a seasoned, but expensive coach. And don't you believe that he would have a chip on his shoulder every single day, wanting to prove Indiana wrong?
JOB shouldn't be on that list as he was a head coach at Jesuit Walsh (I believe). Don't think he was a bad coach but coming out of the NBA as an assistant to Pinto he didn't have a HS pipeline for recruits. He did beat X in the MVC conference his first year with OP players but couldn't get any really good players of his own.

I'm just not sold on AG, yes he has UD ties but just isn't a wow factor and other than his first stint at VCU he was pretty much a meh factor.

Crean would be interesting in that he could do better at UD than AM will do at IU.

Kuwik knows the players, recruits system and landscape at UD as well as the footprint of the A-10
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:45 PM
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Like Nike says, just do it.....I say we go for the Crean of the crop...
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
JOB shouldn't be on that list as he was a head coach at Jesuit Walsh (I believe). Don't think he was a bad coach but coming out of the NBA as an assistant to Pinto he didn't have a HS pipeline for recruits. He did beat X in the MVC conference his first year with OP players but couldn't get any really good players of his own.

I'm just not sold on AG, yes he has UD ties but just isn't a wow factor and other than his first stint at VCU he was pretty much a meh factor.

Crean would be interesting in that he could do better at UD than AM will do at IU.

Kuwik knows the players, recruits system and landscape at UD as well as the footprint of the A-10
Agreed regarding JOB: He just fit nicely into the new coach type category. But yes, he was a HC before at a small school.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:50 PM
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I have spent about half my life here in Dayton...and the first half in Indy. A big fan of both UD and Butler. Believe me...we do not want Crean. Butler fan forum participants were crushed when Crean was fired at IU. Butler owned IU in the annual Crossroads Classic. Butler has mastery over IU even though IU always has better talent. The difference....coaching. Crean is known as Clappy the Clown over there. If you ever watch an IU game you know why he has earned that moniker. Crean is a very good recruiter...hasn't a clue in how to coach. We can do far better.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by steve snyder View Post
I have spent about half my life here in Dayton...and the first half in Indy. A big fan of both UD and Butler. Believe me...we do not want Crean. Butler fan forum participants were crushed when Crean was fired at IU. Butler owned IU in the annual Crossroads Classic. Butler has mastery over IU even though IU always has better talent. The difference....coaching. Crean is known as Clappy the Clown over there. If you ever watch an IU game you know why he has earned that moniker. Crean is a very good recruiter...hasn't a clue in how to coach. We can do far better.
Who would be better?
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
JOB shouldn't be on that list as he was a head coach at Jesuit Walsh (I believe). Don't think he was a bad coach but coming out of the NBA as an assistant to Pinto he didn't have a HS pipeline for recruits. He did beat X in the MVC conference his first year with OP players but couldn't get any really good players of his own.

I'm just not sold on AG, yes he has UD ties but just isn't a wow factor and other than his first stint at VCU he was pretty much a meh factor.

Crean would be interesting in that he could do better at UD than AM will do at IU.

Kuwik knows the players, recruits system and landscape at UD as well as the footprint of the A-10
JOB was the head coach at Wheeling Jesuit (WVa), and pretty successful. His father-in-law was the late-great Dr. Jack Ramsey. And no, JOB didn't beat X in the MVC with OP's players, considering he preceded OP.

JOB's inability to put it all together at Dayton was extremely unfortunate, setting the program back a solid 5+ years. It's kind of a head scratcher too, since there are many that suggested we got great recruits then and won most of the top local recruiting battles. Not to be lost in all of that timeframe was the drastic landscape change of conference affiliation and re-alignment. Most of the dirty hands on that fell on the athletic administration at the time, not getting on board with or being relatively oblivious to what was happening. That combined with 2 seasons of abysmal on court performances, and we ended up with the "dark ages" of UD hoops.

But, Jim was as first class as they came, but ultimately a hire that didn't work out.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
JOB was the head coach at Wheeling Jesuit (WVa), and pretty successful. His father-in-law was the late-great Dr. Jack Ramsey. And no, JOB didn't beat X in the MVC with OP's players, considering he preceded OP.

JOB's inability to put it all together at Dayton was extremely unfortunate, setting the program back a solid 5+ years. It's kind of a head scratcher too, since there are many that suggested we got great recruits then and won most of the top local recruiting battles. Not to be lost in all of that timeframe was the drastic landscape change of conference affiliation and re-alignment. Most of the dirty hands on that fell on the athletic administration at the time, not getting on board with or being relatively oblivious to what was happening. That combined with 2 seasons of abysmal on court performances, and we ended up with the "dark ages" of UD hoops.

But, Jim was as first class as they came, but ultimately a hire that didn't work out.
The whole MCBB landscape has indeed changed a lot since JOB, and do in my heart and mind do not believe the we could ever whiff that badly again. We have too many institutional advantages now. But the reality is, with these young assistants, you never really now how they will be. There is no prefect answer.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
JOB was the head coach at Wheeling Jesuit (WVa), and pretty successful. His father-in-law was the late-great Dr. Jack Ramsey. And no, JOB didn't beat X in the MVC with OP's players, considering he preceded OP.
UD beat X in the MCC Tournament with Donoher's players, and certainly not because of O'Brien's coaching. They went on that 11 game winning streak after starting 11-9 because Negele decided to do a Michael Jordan imitation. Knight was unbelievable during that streak, and there were some very good players around him - Anthony Corbitt, Norm Grevey, Ray Springer, Nolan Robinson, all seniors.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by steve snyder View Post
I have spent about half my life here in Dayton...and the first half in Indy. A big fan of both UD and Butler. Believe me...we do not want Crean. Butler fan forum participants were crushed when Crean was fired at IU. Butler owned IU in the annual Crossroads Classic. Butler has mastery over IU even though IU always has better talent. The difference....coaching.

Yeah but that works both ways. IU beat both Kansas (eventual 1 seed) and North Carolina (1 seed and currently in the Final Four) this season before the injuries kicked in. So is Crean a better coach than Roy Williams and Bill Self? And it's not like Butler is a shabby program.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Who would be better?

Two words for you: Raymond Harper.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
So we could yell at them (the Harbaughs)?

Only if you are a Buckeye fan. The rest of us will be high-fiving them!
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
Yeah but that works both ways. IU beat both Kansas (eventual 1 seed) and North Carolina (1 seed and currently in the Final Four) this season before the injuries kicked in. So is Crean a better coach than Roy Williams and Bill Self? And it's not like Butler is a shabby program.
Its not just this year I am talking about. Butler has owned IU despite inferior talent...including the year IU was number one in the country with Zeller and Farrell in the starting lineup. Butler wins with Moeller walk on Alex Barlow hitting the winning shot. (Barlow eventually got a scholarship) IU always has better players. Butler...better coaches. I repeat...we do not want Crean. What would happen if Crean is coach...on a smaller stage. His recruits would be less talented...but his on court coaching would still go begging. That's the way I see it.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by steve snyder View Post
Its not just this year I am talking about. Butler has owned IU despite inferior talent...including the year IU was number one in the country with Zeller and Farrell in the starting lineup. Butler wins with Moeller walk on Alex Barlow hitting the winning shot. (Barlow eventually got a scholarship) IU always has better players. Butler...better coaches. I repeat...we do not want Crean. What would happen if Crean is coach...on a smaller stage. His recruits would be less talented...but his on court coaching would still go begging. That's the way I see it.
How did he recruit DWade to Marquette? How has Marquette faired since he left?
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Crean was maybe the 5th best coach in the Big Ten. That was not good enough for IU's fans, and I think I agree with them. They should expect more. Archie will do a lot better than Crean did IMO.
UD played 2 Big Ten teams this year, and had better talent in both. Lost both, in my opinion, to coaching. Archie lamented his players played better with a chip on their shoulder. I think Archie coached better with s chip on his. He will probably be favored in most games his 1st year, we will see.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by steve snyder View Post
Its not just this year I am talking about. Butler has owned IU despite inferior talent...including the year IU was number one in the country with Zeller and Farrell in the starting lineup.

This is why most "big" state schools won't play the "smaller" in-state schools. The "smaller" school plays with a chip on its shoulder (also see IU losing at IPFW). I at least give IU credit for playing Butler and going on the road at IPFW. I'm pretty sure Dayton and Xavier would probably own Ohio State the past few seasons if they played us, too.

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Old 03-27-2017, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
JOB shouldn't be on that list as he was a head coach at Jesuit Walsh (I believe). Don't think he was a bad coach but coming out of the NBA as an assistant to Pinto he didn't have a HS pipeline for recruits. He did beat X in the MVC conference his first year with OP players but couldn't get any really good players of his own.

I'm just not sold on AG, yes he has UD ties but just isn't a wow factor and other than his first stint at VCU he was pretty much a meh factor.

Crean would be interesting in that he could do better at UD than AM will do at IU.

Kuwik knows the players, recruits system and landscape at UD as well as the footprint of the A-10
Believe you meant JOB beat X with DD's players
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Believe you meant JOB beat X with DD's players
Yep, senior moment. Op followed JOB. Good catch
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I agree and we need to do it immediately. Everyday that goes by and more schools reach out to UD recruits via family and friends hurts our chances to keep them committed. Rumor is Minn and Indiana have talked with Wright's "people" already. What the heck!

I would have LOVED to up-staged UIs news conference with our own today at noon. It would have been awesome if you think about it. But if we get it done in the next 48 hours I will be happy. UD is the best job out there right now. Georgetown is probably second most attractive. Our list can't be that long. No offense to AM, but it's time to take over this news cycle.
Wouldn't it have been really funny to name Crean as UD's new coach BEFORE Archies press conference today? It would have upstaged everything- AND IU would be footing most of the salaries!
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:21 PM
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If we want to act like a mid major, we will hire one of these young guys with no head-coaching experience. If we want to be a high major, we better hire someone like Tom Crean. It's time to s**t or get off the pot. There's no way people are going to pay big money for renovated arena if we hire some young coach with little or no national name recognition. What would Kentucky do? What would Ohio State do? What would Indiana do? What would Louisville do? We were prepared to make Miller a top 10 salary offer. That is very high major area. Let's not slip back.
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
If we want to act like a mid major, we will hire one of these young guys with no head-coaching experience. If we want to be a high major, we better hire someone like Tom Crean. It's time to s**t or get off the pot. There's no way people are going to pay big money for renovated arena if we hire some young coach with little or no national name recognition. What would Kentucky do? What would Ohio State do? What would Indiana do? What would Louisville do? We were prepared to make Miller a top 10 salary offer. That is very high major area. Let's not slip back.
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UD Earl is that you? I thought there was line a mile long with people with pockets full of money just waiting to be spent on tickets and anything else associated with UD basketball.
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
UD Earl is that you? I thought there was line a mile long with people with pockets full of money just waiting to be spent on tickets and anything else associated with UD basketball.
Why is there so much envy on this board? It gets so tiring.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Why is there so much envy on this board? It gets so tiring.
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Huh ?
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:52 PM
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Archie has to go to a winery with IU's football coach and meet the fans!!!!!!! I kind of want to go just to see how uncomfortable he is the whole time. On the other hand I'm sure Morgan will enjoy the trip to the winery immensely.

https://twitter.com/rickbozich/statu...55304857350145

BTW I put this on this thread because I saw no reason to start another Archie thread.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
Archie has to go to a winery with IU's football coach and meet the fans!!!!!!! I kind of want to go just to see how uncomfortable he is the whole time. On the other hand I'm sure Morgan will enjoy the trip to the winery immensely.

https://twitter.com/rickbozich/statu...55304857350145

BTW I put this on this thread because I saw no reason to start another Archie thread.
Theses days this site for our coach is a real whinery
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
Archie has to go to a winery with IU's football coach and meet the fans!!!!!!! I kind of want to go just to see how uncomfortable he is the whole time. On the other hand I'm sure Morgan will enjoy the trip to the winery immensely.

https://twitter.com/rickbozich/statu...55304857350145

BTW I put this on this thread because I saw no reason to start another Archie thread.
My parents saw Archie at the Dayton Country Club once, my mom bought Archie a drink, he came over and thanked them for the drink and chatted with them for a bit. She said that he was very nice.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
My parents saw Archie at the Dayton Country Club once, my mom bought Archie a drink, he came over and thanked them for the drink and chatted with them for a bit. She said that he was very nice.
I'm sure he has gotten better at this stuff, but I'm guessing that at DCC it was just a normal evening and not some large fan event. It's much easier to be cordial to a small group of people at DCC. Archie probably had to do a large fan thing like this one at Huber once a year at UD for the Doc Leavitt party, but at IU he's going to be doing it several times a year. Does he know how to act like he's enjoying himself and be cordial? Sure. But by the 3rd or 4th event I'd be shocked if he isn't on his way home complaining about it. At least he can check his bank account to make himself feel better though.
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
Archie has to go to a winery with IU's football coach and meet the fans!!!!!!! I kind of want to go just to see how uncomfortable he is the whole time. On the other hand I'm sure Morgan will enjoy the trip to the winery immensely.

https://twitter.com/rickbozich/statu...55304857350145

BTW I put this on this thread because I saw no reason to start another Archie thread.
LOL. You and others are making way too big of a deal about this crap. You act like Archie is the same guy from 6-7 years ago or whenever they hired him. He's been on all national radio programs, had his TV show. met hundreds and hundreds of people and ones slapping a mic in front of him, done far more meet and greets than any of us are aware of, etc...Is the guy Calipari? Well, who is? The guy will have ZERO ZIP NOTTA issue being the head guy, the lead dog, the maestro, and the face of the IU program both on and off the court no matter how much you and others want him to fail..
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Old 04-27-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
The guy will have ZERO ZIP NOTTA issue being the head guy, the lead dog, the maestro, and the face of the IU program both on and off the court no matter how much you and others want him to fail..
I absolute DO NOT want him to fail and have never said that. I completely understand why he left and accepted two years ago that he was going to leave. I have no problem with Archie.

I simply think he doesn't like doing all of that extra stuff even though he has learned how to smile his way through it to convince people he's not grumpy about being there.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:02 AM
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Archie handled himself quite well with Dayton donor groups. He will handle the IU fans.

He is an introvert but knows how to work a crowd.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:16 PM
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Who cares he's gone, wish him well.
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