Dayton not Going to a Depleted Big East with Limited NCAA Bids in 2014!

[AQUDXU]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer I was wondering the same thing. How do our home attendance numbers help the league financially? Isn't the only shared money tv revenue and tourney dollars? If so , we are hurting in both areas especially since they already gain most the dayton tv market with X Posted via Mobile Device

We have a strong East Coast alumni base. With Syracuse out, somebody has to sell out The Dunk in Providence.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan I don't understand your reaction (although that's nothing new). You said our small TV market would hurt us. I simply said you can have a small market with a lot of people watching, or a large market with not that many people watching, so our small market might not hurt us as much as some think. No need for the ridiculous reaction.

A small market with many viewers can be the same or better than a large one with few viewers. But, to any of us have enough experience with the way TV marketers think to really understand these things?

Seems to me that demographic makeup may be a major factor as well. For example, suppose that Saint Louis and Dayton were a wash as far as the number of eyeballs watching....maybe even Dayton with an edge,...but if Saint Louis has a much younger population base so that the number watching between the ages of 30-45 in SL was much greater than in Dayton...to marketers that might be very important. Also, maybe the average income in SL is higher than Dayton's.

I'm just using this as an example...I don't have a clue about SL's demographics or income, though I'll bet Dayton's population tends to be older and less well off than Saint Louis'.

Any Priders in to market research able to shed light on what really matters to the TV guys?

I remember once being stopped in a mall by a market research guy...offered me $45 to answer a few questions re a TV commercial. I was waiting for my wife...$45,...why not? After spending 15 minutes answering questions and getting my $45, the guy said, "Oh, I should have asked how old you are before beginning". At the time I was ~55. When I told him my age he said, "Of shi@,...we are only interested in the opinions of people 50 and younger...I'm going to mark you age as 50 on the form".

So, I'm not sure we know what's important to the TV guys.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 So sorry, this is way off topic but can someone summarize the MK situation and where the reinstatement process is? If any? Does anyone know what truly happened? C7 is trending topic so i figured i could get an answer here. sorry admins

Read the thread on Feb 23 on MK, and please comment on that thread.

[rollo]

Where in this question:

Originally Posted by rollo Do we have to share money with others based on our home attendance?

Do I say this:

Originally Posted by longtimefan You said our small TV market would hurt us.

And don't answer 'Friday' because that's not what I'm asking.

[bobber]

Originally Posted by bobber This is a St. Louis columnist talking about the BE7 situation. SLU is in the same boat with us, sort of. He doesn't bring anything new in the way of facts, but his take on the situation is interesting, especially his comments on the geography involved with Creighton and the overall suitability of Richmond. As an aside, many say this will be decided on the facts: school A brings in more than school B, ergo A wins out. I subscribe to that theory too, up to a point. But now we see Creighton suddenly vaulting to the head of the line of the schools waiting for an invitation for no apparent reason, except that Marquette, which has close administrative ties to Creighton, is adamant that the Blue Jays be included. If Marquette gets its way, then SLU is also surely "in" as well because of the absolute need for a "bridge" school between the rest of the league and far-flung Omaha, Nebraska. And the Jesuits by the way have a grand slam.......two Jesuit schools added to the gravy train in one fell swoop. Pretty neat, Huh? And if Marquette gets its way in the Creighton situation, won't powerful Georgetown, which is rumored to want a team in relative proximity to DC, use the same tactics to push either Richmond or VCU down everyone's throats? Just sayin'. If we don't get it in writing quick a school from the middle of nowhere with a small tv Market, and a school with three thousand students and a weak presence in their own city, could end up eating our lunch. http://www.stltoday.com/sports/colle...0f1944aa6.html

The paranoid me made these comments an hour or so back.

After reconsidering, I think it may be possible that the following explains the situation: Fox wants a league for this Fall, and to get it it wants X and Butler and possibly one other team. The BE7 is willing to pay the "quick and dirty" A-10 exit fee of 2 Mil each for X and Butler, but can't spend anymore, so SLU and UD have to sit. But, Creighton has (ta da) no exit fee from the MVC. So Creighton goes this Fall too.

Next year, with a year's worth of advanced notice, the Billikens and Flyers can leave the A-10 with only a 1 Mil exit fee.

I sure hope this is the case. And we may know soon, because the date to notify the A-10 of an impending exit is coming soon, not to mention the announcement by Fox of it's new networks.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[FlyerFanatic08]

Originally Posted by bobber The paranoid me made these comments an hour or so back. After reconsidering, I think it may be possible that the following explains the situation: Fox wants a league for this Fall, and to get it it wants X and Butler and possibly one other team. The BE7 is willing to pay the "quick and dirty" A-10 exit fee of 2 Mil each for X and Butler, but can't spend anymore, so SLU and UD have to sit. But, Creighton has (ta da) no exit fee from the MVC. So Creighton goes this Fall too. Next year, with a year's worth of advanced notice, the Billikens and Flyers can leave the A-10 with only a 1 Mil exit fee. I sure hope this is the case. And we may know soon, because the date to notify the A-10 of an impending exit is coming soon, not to mention the announcement by Fox of it's new networks.

this is the ideal situation. lets hope this is precisely it.

though the cynic in me would say how is it UD just doesn't shell out the 2 mill to leave now? with the increased money we would get...UD could swing 2 mill.

i and many others have said before: wouldn't FOX want to know who is joining? i mean it just seems so logical that before throwing that cash around, they know what teams/audiences/markets they're bringing in. you would think the advertisers want that info from FOX.

i dont know...just seems odd.


heres a new article... http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...tions/1957721/

not sure what to think of it...things may be slowed down. but it could also all be just semantics. i want to say that espn article reported that fox is holding some presser in NY or something tuesday to announce their new network and thus they wanted to announce the new C7 league.

i guess its possible they meet again tomorrow/sunday and get something agreed to by monday/tuesday?

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Medford]

In all honesty, if it came down to the difference b/w having the Big East pay the exit fee in a year or UD posting the $2 mil exit fee themselves or UD posting the $1 mil exit fee themselves in another season, I wish UD would just pony up the $2 mil today and get in from the get go. I'm guessing there's a donar or two (or PNC financial) who would be willing to give UD a low finance loan on that 2 mil to be paid out from the new TV deal over the next 2-3 seasons.

Heck, just look at it this way, if given the option, UD could make $300k by playing in the A-10 next season, or they could reportadly make $3mil from TV playing in the Big east next year. Even if you had to foot the $2 mil exit fee yourself, that's a net proceed of $700k over the next year. Then they'd make $3 mil going forward a season. Or they could wait a year, make 300k next year, (at best) have the $1mil exit fee payed by someone else, then make $3 mil next season. Under scenerio 1 they'd have $4 mil of profits minus any financing needed to get it done (and why not just borrow it from the endowment at no cost?). Under scenerio 2, they'd have at best $3.3 mil of profits from TV over the next 2 seasons.

If the Big East TV deal is true, it makes 0 sense that either UD or SLU would wait 2 seasons to lower their exit fee costs. There has to be something else in the picture that is forcing it this way. Could be the c7 using the extra TV money to pay off the costs of obtaining the naming rights and starting up the conference. Could be to allow for a potential home for ND, could be to not deal the A-10 a 6 team lose in the course of one offseason. could be something else, but it makes 0 financial sense for UD or SLU to wait a year simply b/c of exit fees. Even if they are willing to pay the $2 mil for X & butler, SLU & UD would be smart to bite the bullet, cover the $2 mil themselves and get on with it.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[The Gem]

[QUOTE=flyers/avs;300724]What in the world have you seen that makes you believe that?

If UD doesn't get into this conference, it's a game-changer for the program - in a negative way. Frankly, I have little interest in watching UD play Bona, GW, Belmont, Davidson and Duquesne ad nauseam. The fan support, fan interest, attendance, arena and facilities for this team is MUCH higher than that. I'm flabbergasted that some people think otherwise.

Step up or pack it up.

Since that his who The Flyers have been playing for going on 20 years, your statement makes me wonder why you follow this team at all. OK not Belmont or Davidson specifically, but The Flyers have played similar type programs in the OOC the whole time. I know X will still be on the schedule and Temple and Umass may be on it off and on too.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	St Bonaventure SAINT BONAVENTURE Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[TA111]

Originally Posted by sopaw10 The idea that next year would be a probationary period to decide if UD gets an invite into the New Big East is a completely ludicrous notion. This in NOT how these things work. You actually believe that the C7 would base its invitation to the league upon how a team performs in a single season? Trust me, there will be a lot more data considered than that. Simply not realistic.

Thank you for this post. Anyone who thinks a major deal like this would rest upon how many wins a team has in one season is living in la la land. This deal has many, many facets to it. The C7 schools involved have already talked to Fox and Fox isn't going to make any deal until all ducks are in a row.

[TA111]

Originally Posted by AQUDXU We have a strong East Coast alumni base. With Syracuse out, somebody has to sell out The Dunk in Providence.

This is a major factor in UD's admittance into the league. We have one of the best fan bases around and the C7 group knows it.

[Flyer'95]

Someone on the A10 board posted this and it seems to me to be the most plausible explanation. It all comes down to ND and whether the ACC will remain the kind of conference that ND wants to join.

C7 wants 18 games 10 teams. Fox wants 12 teams.

C7 will add X and Butler this year along with ND (if that can be arranged).

After a year, if ND feels that the new Big East is a better option than ACC and stays with nBE , then nBE will add no more and will stay at 10 and Fox will be happy too to have ND brand.

If ND goes to ACC as planned, then Creighton will be the 10th team and two more will be add to please Fox.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by rollo Where in this question: Do I say this: And don't answer 'Friday' because that's not what I'm asking.

Originally Posted by rollo I'm asking because I really have no idea... Do we have to share money with others based on our home attendance? I thought all the money being thrown around was TV money...not game attendance. If attendance is a factor, then UD and Creighton would be ahead of X, St.Louis and Butler...but we're not...so it's gotta be more about tv money...which is going to hurt us due to the small tv market in Dayton...right?

Uh... in your last sentence you talk about our small TV market hurting us.

[bobber]

Originally Posted by Flyer'95 Someone on the A10 board posted this and it seems to me to be the most plausible explanation. It all comes down to ND and whether the ACC will remain the kind of conference that ND wants to join. C7 wants 18 games 10 teams. Fox wants 12 teams. C7 will add X and Butler this year along with ND (if that can be arranged). After a year, if ND feels that the new Big East is a better option than ACC and stays with nBE , then nBE will add no more and will stay at 10 and Fox will be happy too to have ND brand. If ND goes to ACC as planned, then Creighton will be the 10th team and two more will be add to please Fox.

I can't see Notre Dame keeping its non-revenue spoirts in the CB7. A year, maybe, but for longer, No.

For one, ND would dominate. Plus, they would not want anything less than BCS-level competition.....you know, all programs fully funded for scholarships, coaches making huge salaries, etc,. They will go where it benefits football through bowl tie-ins, etc. And where they will get BCS level olympic sports.

[westchesterflyer]

ND has a big time lacrosse program. The ACC does as well. The C7 not so much.

[oRed]

Originally Posted by Flyer'95 Someone on the A10 board posted this and it seems to me to be the most plausible explanation. It all comes down to ND and whether the ACC will remain the kind of conference that ND wants to join. C7 wants 18 games 10 teams. Fox wants 12 teams. C7 will add X and Butler this year along with ND (if that can be arranged). After a year, if ND feels that the new Big East is a better option than ACC and stays with nBE , then nBE will add no more and will stay at 10 and Fox will be happy too to have ND brand. If ND goes to ACC as planned, then Creighton will be the 10th team and two more will be add to please Fox.

This is a correct reading of the tea leaves.

Just as ND's football can go independent so can't their Olympic sports...they have plenty of regional competition that would love to have ND on their schedule in any sport...and the bigger the non rev sport in terms of National Title chances, for instance baseball...ND can send their baseball team anywhere they want and play anyone they want.

ND is waiting to see what the new ACC becomes and please Sea Bass don't tell me where ND is scheduled to compete in 2014...because the operative word there is scheduled. Their fluke run to the BCS Championship has them sailing downwind and they know the ACC in its present form is a mirage...both events have had a negative impact on the Flyers chances with the C7.

[FlyerinChicago]

Originally Posted by Flyer'95 Someone on the A10 board posted this and it seems to me to be the most plausible explanation. It all comes down to ND and whether the ACC will remain the kind of conference that ND wants to join. C7 wants 18 games 10 teams. Fox wants 12 teams. C7 will add X and Butler this year along with ND (if that can be arranged). After a year, if ND feels that the new Big East is a better option than ACC and stays with nBE , then nBE will add no more and will stay at 10 and Fox will be happy too to have ND brand. If ND goes to ACC as planned, then Creighton will be the 10th team and two more will be add to please Fox.

If this is true I hate ND even more (didn't think that was possible). I can just see them saying "this is nice, let's stay". Take your 50 million NBC contract, your countless bandwagon no nothing fans and go away...far far away. X, Butler and ND...and stay at 10? That truly would be a disgusting scenario.

[NCkevi]

Originally Posted by Flyer'95 After a year, if ND feels that the new Big East is a better option than ACC and stays with nBE , then nBE will add no more and will stay at 10 and Fox will be happy too to have ND brand.

I thought the primary reason for breaking off was to get away from the football schools - ND will always be on the look out to move based on football

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by NCkevi I thought the primary reason for breaking off was to get away from the football schools - ND will always be on the look out to move based on football

Yes & no, NCKevi. ND is currently "Independent" in football, but they play 3-4 B10 schools every year, in addition to at least 2 of the service academies, USC, BC, and other "name" schools. My family has been to several ND games over the past decade, and it seems the people there like the freedom that comes with not being locked-down to an 8-9 game conference football schedule every year. And they've been in the BE for how many years now, but when have they ever played UConn, UC, UofL, or any of the more recent BE football schools?

Football will always be the straw that stirs the drink at ND, but if they move based on football, it'll be to a conference that gives them the freedom to schedule as they have in the past, not to one that locks them down to playing the same 8-9 schools every year.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Sorry if this article has been posted, but with multiple threads on the subject hard to keep track. Fairly recent in the past couple hours, so think this a bit of new info. Confirmation from the AD that ND is considering C7 for a year

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...gue-one-season

[ud2]

From the Marquette board.

C7 featured on ESPN's Outside the Lines

Pitino:

C7 Deserve the BE name
C7 Deserves the MSG tourney home
C7 should have been fed up and left 3 years ago
C7 is getting a great deal from Fox
Football rules sports


Katz:

Fox Deal is driving this to start '13-14
Fox Insists on Xavier and Butler
Fox Working to get Creighton in this year
Fox wants to add SLU and Gonzaga
GU wants another eastern seaboard program
Fox may want 16 teams over time
C7 won't cut check; Will leave majority of Tourney Units (Tourney Units pay out over 6 years)
Remaining Schools (RS) will need ECU & USNA to come in as full members
UND & Louisville will join ACC this fall



Andrew Brandt (Sports Law at Nova; former GB Packer Exec)

BE Name highly valuable
WSJ puts value in excess of $500MM
Brand Equity is in Fox Deal
C7 will flourish financially

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Buick-Flyer]

Did anyone else see the 'Outside the Lines' segment to confirm the above? I don't trust anything from the Marquette board.

[flyerfever]

No mention of Gonzaga. Ley did mention SLU and Dayton early on in this podcast as additional members in 14/15. No mention of Gtown wanting an east coast member. Everything else was pretty much as has been speculated...Fox wants the splash next season with their new networks. Something may happen in the sponsor roll out on Tuesday.

Andy Katz did mention that Creighton's buy out was quite a bit less than what X and Butler have to pay, and they think the Jays are the 10th team

Quoted Pitino as mentioned above. Discussed how the money issues may be addressed via the tourney money that is disbursed over 6 years.

Check it out...it's about 10 minutes with Ley and Katz.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[flyerfever]

is on Seton Hall's Board of Regents, and he mentioned that he has recused himself, I'm guessing from any discussion the Hall's Board of Regents has regarding the C7 realignment.

[MD Flyer Pride]

Originally Posted by ud2 From the Marquette board. C7 featured on ESPN's Outside the Lines Katz: Fox Deal is driving this to start '13-14 Fox Insists on Xavier and Butler Fox Working to get Creighton in this year Fox wants to add SLU and Gonzaga GU wants another eastern seaboard program Fox may want 16 teams over time C7 won't cut check; Will leave majority of Tourney Units (Tourney Units pay out over 6 years) Remaining Schools (RS) will need ECU & USNA to come in as full members UND & Louisville will join ACC this fall

This quote from Seth Davis might support the Fox Sports comments about a Gonzaga move. I am not patient and I do not like waiting. This is going to be painful.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs...ing_word.html/

From DDN article:
“Dayton is obviously a great candidate. The question (Fox) is going to have to answer and the decision they’re going to have to make is, how big do they want their footprint to be?” said Seth Davis, a CBS college basketball analyst and a studio host during the network’s NCAA tournament coverage. “We can all say, ‘Oh, it should be regional and there should be rivalries,’ but the fact is television wants a big footprint. Television likes multiple time zones.”

Davis isn’t sure Dayton brings much more to the new Big East that it doesn’t already have. And he believes the rival Musketeers could be a potential stumbling block with regional recruiting wars on the line.

“Does Xavier necessarily want Dayton? That’s a big question, too,” Davis said. “That was big thing with the ACC. Boston College did not want UConn in the ACC. Villanova didn’t want Temple in the Big East for the same reason.

“Again, it’s all about footprint. If you have Xavier and you have Cincinnati (as a market) and there are only so many slots, do you want to do one that’s 40 miles away?”

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Fudd]

I guess we will just have to live with the uncomfortable uncertainty for a while. If left out, we will be the oddest leftover in the nation. 13,000 fans showing up for a steady diet of lower-level competition. It could be Memphis-like.

The title of this thread seems very premature.

[MD Flyer Pride]

Here's the thing about Gonzaga... why not add them to the new conference (from the perspective of the members of the new conference and Fox Sports)? For the other conference schools, it is only one or two games that these 10-12 schools will have to fly across the country. Not really a big deal at all.

The bigger question... does Gonzaga want to be in a conference where the majority of their games are East of the Mississippi?

[oRed]

the whole woe is me thing is nauseating...what conferences were VCU & Butler in when they made their splash...same can be said for George Mason, Davidson...I'm not sure I can name Gonzaga's conference...so if it's the A10, Big East, CUSA, Horizon, MVC or ?conference...the Flyers need to win basketball games and plenty of programs have proven you can pull the boots on by their straps and get it done.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by MD Flyer Pride The bigger question... does Gonzaga want to be in a conference where the majority of their games are East of the Mississippi?

If they join the C7 they'll adjust the 14 non-conference games to include at least 10 in their home gym and 2 others close by (neutral)...so there's 2 potential east-of-the-mississippi games...and with an 18 game C7 schedule, 9 will be on the road. So out of 32ish games, it's reasonable that they'd only play 11 games in our neck of the woods. With a creative scheduler, they could piggy back Th/Sun games to lessen the wear and tear.

But that's all hypothetical on them getting invited.

And if we don't, then I really don't give a rat's a$$ what happens to them!

[Medford]

In a vacuum, gonzaga is great. In reality, a wednesday night game in the middle of no where Washington is a logistic nightmare for every talked about program. On the flip side, how many games would the zags drop from getting jet lagged so often?

[rollo]

Originally Posted by TA111 Thank you for this post. Anyone who thinks a major deal like this would rest upon how many wins a team has in one season is living in la la land. This deal has many, many facets to it. The C7 schools involved have already talked to Fox and Fox isn't going to make any deal until all ducks are in a row.

There's only room for 2 more ducks once X, Butler and Creighton are added...that leaves UD fighting with St. Louis, VCU/Richmond and ???? for the last 2 spots...that are being delayed.

If you don't believe recent success is a factor in deciding who to invite to your new conference, then you probably still have Farrah Fawcett and Heather Locklear posters in your bedroom.

And just like those 80's babes, we aren't what we once were.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[ClevelandFlyer05]

Originally Posted by oRed the whole woe is me thing is nauseating...what conferences were VCU & Butler in when they made their splash...same can be said for George Mason, Davidson...I'm not sure I can name Gonzaga's conference...so if it's the A10, Big East, CUSA, Horizon, MVC or ?conference...the Flyers need to win basketball games and plenty of programs have proven you can pull the boots on by their straps and get it done.

Sorry, but what Butler and VCU did was flukish. Not a knock on their programs, but given the parity in the game, it was bound to happen for some small program (and actually George Mason did it first). And it's bound to happen again in the future. However if UD wants to have a shot at consistently being competitive and becoming a perennial Tournament team, their best bet will be the new Big East.

[ClevelandFlyer05]

Originally Posted by rollo There's only room for 2 more ducks once X, Butler and Creighton are added...that leaves UD fighting with St. Louis, VCU/Richmond and ???? for the last 2 spots...that are being delayed. If you don't believe recent success is a factor in deciding who to invite to your new conference, then you probably still have Farrah Fawcett and Heather Locklear posters in your bedroom. And just like those 80's babes, we aren't what we once were.

I don't think that Virginia Commonwealth is a legitimate possibility anymore.

However I would keep my eye on the ACC and Notre Dame. If the B1G starts plucking schools from the ACC and the Big XII gets in on the action along with the SEC, Notre Dame could become a free radical. If that happens I think UD is screwed.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by MD Flyer Pride Davis isn’t sure Dayton brings much more to the new Big East that it doesn’t already have. “Again, it’s all about footprint. If you have Xavier and you have Cincinnati (as a market) and there are only so many slots, do you want to do one that’s 40 miles away?”

This has been on my mind from the git-go. Once X and BU are in, UD adds almost nothing....the area is covered. UD is not needed at all.

[TA111]

Originally Posted by rollo There's only room for 2 more ducks once X, Butler and Creighton are added...that leaves UD fighting with St. Louis, VCU/Richmond and ???? for the last 2 spots...that are being delayed. If you don't believe recent success is a factor in deciding who to invite to your new conference, then you probably still have Farrah Fawcett and Heather Locklear posters in your bedroom. And just like those 80's babes, we aren't what we once were.

The decision has already been made and Fox is pulling the strings-always follow the money. It doesn't matter what the other schools want or what the Presidents of those schools want. It's what the TV guys want. And next seasons record is entirely irrelevant. You claimed that next seasons record could be a determining factor-you're wrong.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[oRed]

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 Sorry, but what Butler and VCU did was flukish. Not a knock on their programs, but given the parity in the game, it was bound to happen for some small program (and actually George Mason did it first). And it's bound to happen again in the future. However if UD wants to have a shot at consistently being competitive and becoming a perennial Tournament team, their best bet will be the new Big East.

winning basketball games is not flukish and precisely the point...win games and you're attractive...UD has been too consistent in doing less with more. The variables at this point are so great (in terms of who/what & when will be in ACC, Big East) you have as good a chance winning Ohio's Pick 3 or 4 this aftenoon. Not being in the original C7 (getting dumped by Great Midwest) and not being in the C7 + 2 is problematic because of all the remaining variables with the biggest problem (for UD) being Notre Dame and the ACC. ND's AD is openly and dizzily brainstorming in the above espn article so much so his own athletic dept can't make sense of it. So if ND after a year long looksy decides the C7 is the place to be and after (not if) the ACC is picked over by the B1G,SEC & BIG12 there might be a couple of other schools looking for new homes (read Wake and Duke). So UD, SLU, SLU,Creighton et al would be further pushed down a list. Which brings me back to where I started...it's about winning...we didn't do enough of it in the 80's and not enough recently to get to the top of lists. League affiliation would be great for making my season tickets more attractive and UD's profile but it's not going to insure winning...ask DePaul. And no better time to start winning than this afternoon...last week of the regular season, 3 games vs opponents with a combined record of 42-38 (.520) and 19-19 (.500) conf record yet there is nothing in our body of work that gives me great confidence we can win any of those games...I sure don't feel confident we'll get done what is eeded and sweep those 3. That's the problem...start fixing today.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[longtimefan]

When this all plays out I guess we will see who is running our Universities, the Presidents or a TV network. And if it is the TV network (which it probably is ) we might have been much better off if ESPN had the contract. They love UD.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer This has been on my mind from the git-go. Once X and BU are in, UD adds almost nothing....the area is covered. UD is not needed at all.

But awhile back you said UD was "golden."

[Flyer'95]

Honestly if the acc gets picked over by the big10 and big12, I could see duke and wake becoming basketball-only schools. It's just not worth the investment for them, and continuing to play football might leave them in a conference that is very undesirable. That just moves us even further down the list. The bright side of all of this is that if nd stays with the c7, it sounds like slu, us, and vcu and Richmond would all still be in the a10. Not nearly as bad as us being the only one left behind.

If that happens, I think it's time the a10 take a hard look at itself and make sure all it's members believe in and support men's hoops. Because there are other strong hoop schools out there that would be better members. And if the a10 doesn't, maybe that stronger pack of schools should break off and merge with the best of the rest. Creighton, Wichita st, Davidson, mason, wku, Murray st, Siena, etc.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Tony T 71]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer This has been on my mind from the git-go. Once X and BU are in, UD adds almost nothing....the area is covered. UD is not needed at all.

And we are back to to being a mid major in a 2bid league in a good year. We will barely be a step ahead of the horizon or mid American!!!

Don't hold your breath for the be/c7to call us next year

It also wouldn't surprise me if we don't lose at least one recruit from next years class. It is what it was...

Sorry if I sound cold hearted but first this for my beloved Flyers and chemo starts in 2 weeks

[UDFLIES]

I am going to propose a crazy idea... lets just wait until an official announcement is made and see what is going to happen. I know all this crazy speculation is fun but it is getting out of hand. Again, call me crazy, but why don't we wait until official word is out on what is going to happen

[ClevelandFlyer05]

Originally Posted by oRed winning basketball games is not flukish and precisely the point....

Perhaps, but winning a weak conference and then going on a five game (tiny sample size) run through the NCAA Tournament doesn't prove any kind of consistent program strength, either.

I can't even really remember what we were debating here.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by UDFLIES I am going to propose a crazy idea... lets just wait until an official announcement is made and see what is going to happen. I know all this crazy speculation is fun but it is getting out of hand. Again, call me crazy, but why don't we wait until official word is out on what is going to happen

Sure and while you are at it I suppose your next suggestion would be to wait until we hear that MK is coming back before we return our season tickets or buy them depending upon what side of the fence you stand.

Talk like this would put UDPride out of business.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Tony T 71 And we are back to to being a mid major

When were we not?

In today's NCAA D1 basketball world, Universities who hire assistants from BCS schools are, based on their actions, mid-majors. Purnell was the exception because we were desperate after getting dumped by Deane and had to react quickly.

Gregory....Miller...capable hard working coaches using UD as a stepping stone...which is another reason that we are considered by everyone outside the Ghetto as being a mid-major.

Will the C7-East turn us into a Major?

Only if our next coach (a) has successful and recent head coaching experience or (b) it's his last destination.


Personally, and taking into account UD's expectations and limited abilities, I'd much rather be the big fish of the small conference pond than someone like Penn State or Northwestern who are always at the bottom and fighting like mad to get out.

The world loves a Cinderella and I believe if our assets, strenghts and abilities were funneled the right direction, we could become that school everyone loves and can't figure out....like Butler, Xavier and Gonzaga have done recently. We have no chance to ever become Goliath because the money is stacked against us...so let's play with the hand dealt and take our chances when the NCAA Tournament starts.

For those of you who think big, bad bulging rollo is afraid of playing with the big boys, you're wrong. I just know how and when to choose my battles....and we aren't ready for (nor earned) a C7 upgrade...and won't be for another decade...or longer.

It doesn't mean I don't want it...I'm just not excited about being fed to the lions w/o a spear.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Ghetto UD GHETTO Student neighborhood surrounding the campus of the University of Dayton. Unique to UD, the Ghetto gets its name from the nickname students gave the depression and war-period row houses the university owns and rents to Dayton students during their course of study. The landlord arrangement and compact nature of the neighborhood homes create a camaraderie among students outside of class that provides personal space away from classrooms and on-campus dorms. Parties and celebrations on Ghetto streets are legendary and have made David Letterman's Top-10 List. A significant effort has been made in recent years to curb hooliganism and renovate older homes.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by MD Flyer Pride Here's the thing about Gonzaga... why not add them to the new conference (from the perspective of the members of the new conference and Fox Sports)? For the other conference schools, it is only one or two games that these 10-12 schools will have to fly across the country. Not really a big deal at all. The bigger question... does Gonzaga want to be in a conference where the majority of their games are East of the Mississippi?

Not only do you have to deal with basketball travel, but you have to deal with travel for all the other sports. Spokane is 2,500 miles from NYC, I just can't see any way to make Gonzaga with the c7 work.

[purpieschu]

1) It is funny how our emotional outlook shifts from one extreme to the other after hearing each new piece of "information." But isn't that what being a fan is all about.
2) We WILL be an odd duck program if we get left out in the cold. We may be the only team left in the A10 that plays in an arena instead of a gym. Though, I don't ever believe we could be like Memphis because UD would never bend the recruiting "ethics" to that degree.
3) I concede that it does take a bit of luck to become a Xavier, Butler or Gonzaga. Nonetheless, I don't believe luck had to be so much a part of the equation for our program as recently as 1984. If we get left behind it will take luck to ever get to the level of play so many of us desire.
4) I can't help but believe this is bad karma playing out. I believe this stems from the firing of Coach Donoher in what was it 1989? (Full disclosure: I was young and stupid and half-heartedly supported the decision at the time.)
5) I must admit I was getting excited about all this talk of a new 18000 seat arena. I was starting to think about how much of an investment it would be to secure decent season tickets. I certainly would not consider that investment if we are not included in the new BE and I cannot imagine the university would either.
6) This waiting is hard to endure. None of us know what will happen. I just wish we'd hurry up and find out one way or the other.
7) Who will become our biggest rival if we remain in the A10? I am taking for granted that SLU will move on. Are there schools who do not have any intense rivalries?
8) If a watered down A10 is our eventual home I am certain I will remain an interested fan. I am not sure how long it will take to become resigned to that fate, however.
9) It does feel good getting all this off my chest!

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan But awhile back you said UD was "golden."

Longtimer, you may have me confused with another poster.

I do think UD is "golden" for many, many reasons. But, I don't ever recall expressing optimism re our prospects for the new conference. In fact, I have been pressimistic since this all began.

(I'm sure you'll check my past posts.)

[frisco flyer]

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 Perhaps, but winning a weak conference and then going on a five game (tiny sample size) run through the NCAA Tournament doesn't prove any kind of consistent program strength, either.

Isn't this how Butler did it?
Gonzaga?
Memphis?

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 Perhaps, but winning a weak conference and then going on a five game (tiny sample size) run through the NCAA Tournament doesn't prove any kind of consistent program strength, either. I can't even really remember what we were debating here.

Maybe not, but doing it twice, then stepping up to a much tougher conference and being in the top 4 teams and holding your own, sure looks like the start of a trend doesn't it?

[rollo]

Originally Posted by frisco flyer Isn't this how Butler did it? Gonzaga? Memphis?

They didn't just win a smaller conference...they dominated it.

For over a decade...or longer....

They had a plan, executed it perfectly and are now cashing it in...and then there's us...hoping...praying...wanting....drinking...

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by purpieschu 1) 2) We WILL be an odd duck program if we get left out in the cold. We may be the only team left in the A10 that plays in an arena instead of a gym. Though, I don't ever believe we could be like Memphis because UD would never bend the recruiting "ethics" to that degree.

This is a key point. Even Larry Hansgen has said that other than Cintas and St. Louis' place, most of the gyms in the A-10 "suck." Haha. LaSalle is having a great year, and yet they're lucky to get 3000 people for a game. Their home win against ranked Butler in January drew 3400. Their home win against UD barely drew 2000.

So yeah, if it walks like an odd duck, and quacks like an odd duck...

Originally Posted by purpieschu 1)4) I can't help but believe this is bad karma playing out. I believe this stems from the firing of Coach Donoher in what was it 1989? (Full disclosure: I was young and stupid and half-heartedly supported the decision at the time.).

I'm in the same boat. At the time, my dad told me that firing Donoher was a bad idea. I told him that perhaps the game had passed by Donoher. Don didn't even like the three-point shot, for Pete's sake! It was time to move on to a new era.

But Donoher really wasn't that old (about 57) at the time.

I now think Dad was right, as usual.

Originally Posted by purpieschu 1)6) This waiting is hard to endure. None of us know what will happen. I just wish we'd hurry up and find out one way or the other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMyCa35_mOg

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

	Larry Hansgen LARRY HANSGEN The long-time voice of the Flyers on NewsTalk Radio WHIO, Larry Hansgen provides play-by-play for all University of Dayton men's basketball and football games. Hansgen also serves as News Director for WHIO 1290 AM and 95.7 FM.

[Bat'71]

As noted in earlier Posts, anything can happen when it comes to what schools are ultimately included in the new conference. Any number of factors will ultimately go into the decision; some will be performance related; some related to the institutional commitment and competitiveness in other sports; some purely financial; and, some will be purely political. However, including Gonzaga in any formulation would seem like madness, for all concerned. Is it possible, sure, is it logical, ah, no, not really. Spokane is so far removed from everyone else, they make Creigthen look next door. Travel for all other sports will be nightmarish; if WVa is having problems with their Big XII scheduling and logistics (even with getting some $20MM per year), how do you think Providence, St. John's, 'Nova and Gonzaga will react when the reality of the situation sinks in? Also, how many Zags fans will be filling the Garden for the new league's Tourney? IMO, some of the stuff that comes out about what schools are being considered seems like a stream of consciousness exercise.

Fan support is important, as are rivalries. UofL played DePaul this past week and you could have shot a cannon off in the Allstate Arena (Rosemont) and not hit anybody...the atmosphere was blah. If the C7 aren't careful in who they select, there could be a lot of empty or half full Arenas for their teams to play in. If they don't think things through, come Conference Tourney time, MSG will be a mere shadow of itself (kind of how the NIT is now, relative to the way it had been 40 years ago.) UD has a lot to offer the new league, if political or parochial interests of some of the institutions involved override the fundamentals of what we can bring to the party, then all parties will be worse off for the effort. At the end of the day, IMO, UD will be fine no matter what eventually happens.

Being in the BE hasn't exactly been a boon to the likes of SHU, SJU, DePaul or Providence. Partially due to it's geographic separation from the core fo the ACC, BC hasn't exactly benefited from being in that Conference, so joining the new BE may not be the best thing either for the likes of Creighten and Gonzaga.

	St Joseph's ST. JOSEPH'S Founded by the Society of Jesus in 1851, Saint Joseph's University advances the professional and personal ambitions of men and women by providing a demanding, yet supportive educational experience. One of only 139 schools nationwide with a Phi Beta Kappa chapter and AACSB business school accreditation, Saint Joseph's is home to 4,200 full-time undergraduates and 3,100 graduate, part-time and doctoral candidates. Located in urban Philadelphia, SJU is a fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Hawks. Athletic claim to fame is is the Hawk mascot, a university student on full scholarship who wears a Hawk uniform and flaps his wings continuously for an entire athletic event. School spirit slogan is "The Hawk Will Never Die."

[longtimefan]

Donoher's last three seasons were 13-15, 13-18, and 12-17. Some posters wanted BG fired after several winning seasons and some are even calling for Miller's head already. Donoher reportedly didn't like to recruit and was asked to get better assistants/recruiters. He declined. The problem was not that UD fired Donoher (he should have "retired" gracefully), but the coach they replaced him with.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan Donoher's last three seasons were 13-15, 13-18, and 12-17. Some posters wanted BG fired after several winning seasons and some are even calling for Miller's head already.

Yeah, but just five years prior, Donoher had UD in the Elite Eight, something UD has not come even remotely close to since. Four years prior to Donoher's firing, we lost to eventual champion Villanova by 2 points in the Dance. Donoher was also the only coach to take UD to the national championship game.

Maybe you have a little more patience and grace with a guy like that. Bad karma...

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[longtimefan]

VCU beating Butler by 33! Maybe the C-7 should reconsider their choice of Butler?

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer Yeah, but just five years prior, Donoher had UD in the Elite Eight, something UD has not come even remotely close to since. Four years prior to Donoher's firing, we lost to eventual champion Villanova by 2 points in the Dance. Donoher was also the only coach to take UD to the national championship game. Maybe you have a little more patience and grace with a guy like that. Bad karma...

He also went ten years without an NCAA bid from 1974 to 1984. Some prominent ex-Flyers were getting impatient at that time. He was a good coach, but I think time had passed him by by the late 80's. Can you imagine going ten years between NCAA bids right now.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Viperstick]

Karma has nothing to do with this. We were riding our historical coat tails through the 70s & 80s and failed to recognize the changing landscape around us until it was too late:

1) Failed to get in on the ground floor of the fledgling Big East in the late 1970s.
2) Failed to invest in the athletic department through the 1980s.
3) Failed to recognize the increasingly cut throat world of recruiting through the 1970s & 80s & failed to adequately capitalize & build on our 1984 success.
4) Failed to conduct a national coaching search in 1989, settling for the in-law of a coaching legend with NBA ties.
5) Continue to fail in believing our history and ancillary basketball achievements (attendance, NCAAs hosted, ESPN comments about our atmosphere) mean more than winning on the court.

Until we stop failing and begin winning consistently on the court, we will be a backwater of the modern college basketball landscape.

[FlyerFanatic08]

Originally Posted by rollo They didn't just win a smaller conference...they dominated it. For over a decade...or longer.... They had a plan, executed it perfectly and are now cashing it in...and then there's us...hoping...praying...wanting....drinking...

THIS...THIS...THIS


if we get left behind in a watered down A-10...assuming who hangs around, lets say butler/x/slu/richmond go...assuming VCU hangs around....its us 2 and thats it.

no more excuses...we better be finishing 1 or 2 in the watered down A-10.

thats the only way we ever climb out of the mid major hole we will have fallen into.

even then we'll be in that watered down A-10 for a long long time.

even finishing 5th or worse any year would be unacceptable as far as i'm concerned.

i don't care who the A-10 may add....thats gotta be the expectations...no excuses.

even though we could go and end up being bottom feeders in a better conference, i'd prefer that. at the very least we would have more opportunities to help improve NCAA resume. especially since some of those schools will have to come to our home court.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Viperstick Karma has nothing to do with this. We were riding our historical coat tails through the 70s & 80s and failed to recognize the changing landscape around us until it was too late: 1) Failed to get in on the ground floor of the fledgling Big East in the late 1970s. 2) Failed to invest in the athletic department through the 1980s. 3) Failed to recognize the increasingly cut throat world of recruiting through the 1970s & 80s & failed to adequately capitalize & build on our 1984 success. 4) Failed to conduct a national coaching search in 1989, settling for the in-law of a coaching legend with NBA ties. 5) Continue to fail in believing our history and ancillary basketball achievements (attendance, NCAAs hosted, ESPN comments about our atmosphere) mean more than winning on the court. Until we stop failing and begin winning consistently on the court, we will be a backwater of the modern college basketball landscape.

At this juncture I will amazed (pleased) if UD winds up with the C7. But both Butler and Gonzaga proved that a school like UD does not have to be in a power conference to be very, very successful. The projected, weakened A10 will be a stronger conference than either the Horrizon or West Coast (?)

However, even if we do get the wake up call and finally get our act together in the "new" A10,...missing the C7 boat will prove very costly.

There is the money.....a few million a year. That will impact all athletics programs.

And there is this. You are judged by the company you keep. And UD very much wanted to be associated with the likes of elites like Georgetown and Villanova. Indeed, even Marquette is positioned substantially higher than UD in the US News rankings. Our reputation would be enhanced by way of association with the C7 schools.

Still, it may happen...hope it does...but I cannot be optimistic no matter how hard I try. As Arch wrote.....a "watershed" happening for UD, one way or the other.

[anthonycharles]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 Yes & no, NCKevi. ND is currently "Independent" in football, but they play 3-4 B10 schools every year, in addition to at least 2 of the service academies, USC, BC, and other "name" schools. My family has been to several ND games over the past decade, and it seems the people there like the freedom that comes with not being locked-down to an 8-9 game conference football schedule every year. And they've been in the BE for how many years now, but when have they ever played UConn, UC, UofL, or any of the more recent BE football schools? Football will always be the straw that stirs the drink at ND, but if they move based on football, it'll be to a conference that gives them the freedom to schedule as they have in the past, not to one that locks them down to playing the same 8-9 schools every year.

The Big 10, Big 12 & SEC will pick the ACC apart. Once this happens, there will be 4 super conferences of 16-20 teams. This means each conference in football will play 10 conference games a year, leaving only 2 non-conference games. With that said, how will an Independent like Notre Dame schedule 12 games year in and year out, with all other programs that matter only being able to schedule 2 non-conference games a year? Can USC, Stanford, Purdue, Michigan St. & Michigan afford to schedule Notre Dame every year when they only have 2 non-conference games and a much tougher conference schedule? I have a hard time seeing Notre Dame being able to sustain their Independence in football when it shrinks to 4 conferences. If I was the C-7, this would greatly concern me about The Irish.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by anthonycharles The Big 10, Big 12 & SEC will pick the ACC apart. Once this happens, there will be 4 super conferences of 16-20 teams. This means each conference in football will play 10 conference games a year, leaving only 2 non-conference games. With that said, how will an Independent like Notre Dame schedule 12 games year in and year out, with all other programs that matter only being able to schedule 2 non-conference games a year? Can USC, Stanford, Purdue, Michigan St. & Michigan afford to schedule Notre Dame every year when they only have 2 non-conference games and a much tougher conference schedule? I have a hard time seeing Notre Dame being able to sustain their Independence in football when it shrinks to 4 conferences. If I was the C-7, this would greatly concern me about The Irish.

The Big Ten and SEC can cherry pick any ACC teams they want. But, I can't see either league going above 16 teams. If that supposition is correct, with the BT and SEC each taking two ACC teams...that leaves the ACC with ten plus ND. If the ACC responds quickly by adding both UCs, then the ACC will have 12 schools plus ND.

Take any four ACC schools away, and with ND and adding the two UCs, there is still a mightly good conference, especially in basketball.

I cannot see the Big 12 being attractive to any ACC school. WVU is already chafing because of the distance issue. For ACC schools it would be even worse. Of course, the PAC 12 is out of the ACC picture because of geography. But, the PAC 12 once before was eyeing Big 12 schools.....why not again?

Thus, while the ACC is under the gun as regards the SEC and Big Ten predators....I think a weakened ACC could recover very nicely, while the Big 12 still is vulnerable...or, if the PAC 12 is not interested,...at least small.

The ACC has two schools dying to get in, UConn and Cincinnatti,...and it had Notre Dame. Not a bad situation.

As for the current BE, while its FB is a shambles, basketball remains formidable. With a core comprised of Memphis, Temple, Cincinatti and UConn, BE BB still is strong...until the ACC comes knocking.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by Viperstick 1) Failed to get in on the ground floor of the fledgling Big East in the late 1970s.

This was a little before my time, but was this really a realistic possibility? The original Big East consisted of Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, Seton Hall, UConn, and Boston College. Apparently Holy Cross and Rutgers were invited, but declined. (D'oh - I bet they wish they had that decision to do over!) Thus, Georgetown was the "western-most" school in the conference.

Those teams are all actually geographically located in the "East." UD was more affiliated with Marquette, DePaul, Notre Dame, and other midwestern schools at that time.

Thus, in hindsight, UD in the original Big East doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

What am I missing?

[anthonycharles]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer The Big Ten and SEC can cherry pick any ACC teams they want. But, I can't see either league going above 16 teams. If that supposition is correct, with the BT and SEC each taking two ACC teams...that leaves the ACC with ten plus ND. If the ACC responds quickly by adding both UCs, then the ACC will have 12 schools plus ND. Take any four ACC schools away, and with ND and adding the two UCs, there is still a mightly good conference, especially in basketball. I cannot see the Big 12 being attractive to any ACC school. WVU is already chafing because of the distance issue. For ACC schools it would be even worse. Of course, the PAC 12 is out of the ACC picture because of geography. But, the PAC 12 once before was eyeing Big 12 schools.....why not again? Thus, while the ACC is under the gun as regards the SEC and Big Ten predators....I think a weakened ACC could recover very nicely, while the Big 12 still is vulnerable...or, if the PAC 12 is not interested,...at least small. The ACC has two schools dying to get in, UConn and Cincinnatti,...and it had Notre Dame. Not a bad situation. As for the current BE, while its FB is a shambles, basketball remains formidable. With a core comprised of Memphis, Temple, Cincinatti and UConn, BE BB still is strong...until the ACC comes knocking.

I can see the following ACC teams being taken:

Big 10 - Georgia Tech, Virginia & North Carolina (I don't think UNC reallys want to but they may have no choice due to the money).

Big 12 - Florida St., Virginia Tech, possibly even a Louisville and/or Pitt.

I don't see the Big 12 sitting idly by at 10 teams while the Big 10 & SEC keep expanding. While West Viriginia is complaining now, they won't be once the Big 12 expands and gets other Easter Time Zone teams. The ACC is in trouble and if the few somewhat quailty football programs they have now leaves, the conference is done in terms of football relevance.

The Big-12 was on thin ice when Oklahoma & Texas were on the bubble, however I don't see them going anywhere now.

Why do you think Coach K. has been so vocal about this realingment? He sees the writing on the wall and Duke is going to get screwed over. He knows this, otherwise he wouldn't say anything about it.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer This was a little before my time, but was this really a realistic possibility? The original Big East consisted of Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, Seton Hall, UConn, and Boston College. Apparently Holy Cross and Rutgers were invited, but declined. (D'oh - I bet they wish they had that decision to do over!) Thus, Georgetown was the "western-most" school in the conference. Those teams are all actually geographically located in the "East." UD was more affiliated with Marquette, DePaul, Notre Dame, and other midwestern schools at that time. Thus, in hindsight, UD in the original Big East doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. What am I missing?

You are right Guyer. The original BE was comprised of schools in the northeast. And at the time no one could have imagined the future course of the new league, Just the fact that two schools turned down the opportunity to join says a great deal. And, UConn was on the verge of dropping out on more than one occasion before Calhoun was hired.

Decisions in hindsight often appear to make no sense. Penn State wanted to join the BE in the worst way and was blocked...it is said by Villanova. If,...if...PSU was a BE member at the time the league added football the course of history would have been changed.

And, more recently, had the BE FB schools separated from the BB schools 5-10 years ago, it's likely that BE FB would be a strong conference with a large TV contract. At that time schools were begging to join a BCS league, any BCS league. The eight BE FB schools could have had TCU, BYU, Utah, et al for the asking, creating a formidable FB league.

Only the eight large BE schools allowed themselves to be dictated to by the Catholic 7,...a group that now is in better shape than what's left of the BE.

Decisions matter.....and how UD winds up after the current shuffle ends will matter plenty.

[TommyGola]

I am hopeful that we are able to get into the C-7...very hopeful. However, I am not optimistic. There is a price to pay for years of mediocrity and we may pay it with a Sub-Atlantic 10.

[Viperstick]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer This was a little before my time, but was this really a realistic possibility? The original Big East consisted of Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, Seton Hall, UConn, and Boston College. Apparently Holy Cross and Rutgers were invited, but declined. (D'oh - I bet they wish they had that decision to do over!) Thus, Georgetown was the "western-most" school in the conference. Those teams are all actually geographically located in the "East." UD was more affiliated with Marquette, DePaul, Notre Dame, and other midwestern schools at that time. Thus, in hindsight, UD in the original Big East doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. What am I missing?

Back in 2001, I asked Doug Hauschild about UD's failure to get into the original Big East. Here's what he responded with:

I'm aware of the decision that sent us down the path in the early 1970's. Actually we were approached by a syndicator (TVS might have been the name)to be part of their television package, rather than join a league with an existing package. The roots of the Big East came from the TV arrangement, but not everyone involved eventually joined the Big East. Still, when college basketball exploded into the TV staple it is today this group was on the ground floor. I think Tom Frericks would look back and wish he did that differently, but I would not be surprised that part of his decision was not wanting to be involved with some of the operators who were getting that started

I have no doubt that Frericks thought twice about some of the slimy characters that have since come to dominate the media side of the college sports enterprise, but the lack fo vision at that time continues to hurt us to this day.

[ClevelandFlyer05]

Originally Posted by rollo They didn't just win a smaller conference...they dominated it. For over a decade...or longer.... They had a plan, executed it perfectly and are now cashing it in...and then there's us...hoping...praying...wanting....drinking...

Originally Posted by frisco flyer Isn't this how Butler did it? Gonzaga? Memphis?

Yep, but it's still dumb luck to some degree. Gonzaga capitalized on their 1999 Sweet 16 with a decade and a half of WCC dominance and a significant rise in the stature of their program. George Mason, Valparaiso, Kent State, Cleveland State, Chatanooga, etc. all had low-seeded Tournament runs in the 80s, 90s, and 00s and never took that next step.

I tend to believe that in the case of Gonzaga and Butler, their programs are what they are today because of the momentum and public perception they built with early Sweet 16 runs. I don't believe that they made those early runs because they were great programs at the time. What separates them is that after they made the runs, they had the people and infrastructure in place to springboard their programs to the next level.

I'm also not sure that any of those programs are guaranteed to have staying power in the long term. They may, but by no means is a guarantee. In the case of Butler, though, their conference upgrade will ensure, at the very least, a gravy-train ride for decades, and at best, a platform to remain consistently competitive on a national level. That's what UD needs. The chances are low that we'll ever follow the same path that Butler, Gonzaga, and Xavier found themselves on by playing in a second-tier conference and building on early lucky tournament runs.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[hawkoooo]

The A10 will be fine. Creighton getting an invite means one less A10 team being poached. It also means that the remaining basketball-only schools in the MVC may be interested in moving.

If the BE goes to 12 we are probably in. If it goes to more than 12 we are assuredly in. I'm sorry but I just don't understand the "woe is us" crap. I think we are in a good shape either way.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo The A10 will be fine. Creighton getting an invite means one less A10 team being poached. It also means that the remaining basketball-only schools in the MVC may be interested in moving. If the BE goes to 12 we are probably in. If it goes to more than 12 we are assuredly in. I'm sorry but I just don't understand the "woe is us" crap. I think we are in a good shape either way.

Hawk, the A10 may turn out OK and if UD were to dominate a "new" A10, Priders will be happier than they have been with UD as a mediocre A10 team or as they would be with the Flyers a doormat in a much more powerful C7-based league. That latter scenario is, by no means, out of the question.

We didn't know how to be a top team in the A10....what reason is there to think that the same cast of characters running the show would do any better under more difficult circumstances.

Having said that, there is a pretty big downside to being left out....money. The A10 deal pays us about $350K annually...whereas the C7+ guys will take in $2.5-$3 million more than that,...each year. That kind of money affects all aspects of the athletics program, not just basketball. UD BB doesn't need more money. So, the extra ~ $2+ million is available for other purposes, e.g., facilities, scholarships, coaching salaries...anything requiring money.

Moreover, Curran has elevated UD's stature considerably...but we aren't yet where we want to be/need to be. Association with a highly prominent athletic conference would help.

Bottom line: There's quite a bit more to it than success of man's BB. UD can still be successful in BB in a revised A10. But, if we fail to make this ship, we'll be weaker in other ways than would otherwise have been the case.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by Viperstick Back in 2001, I asked Doug Hauschild about UD's failure to get into the original Big East. Here's what he responded with: I'm aware of the decision that sent us down the path in the early 1970's. Actually we were approached by a syndicator (TVS might have been the name)to be part of their television package, rather than join a league with an existing package. The roots of the Big East came from the TV arrangement, but not everyone involved eventually joined the Big East. Still, when college basketball exploded into the TV staple it is today this group was on the ground floor. I think Tom Frericks would look back and wish he did that differently, but I would not be surprised that part of his decision was not wanting to be involved with some of the operators who were getting that started

Very interesting, but I'm not sure we can include this as a cause for our current predicament.

First, our "colleagues" and rivals at the time -- DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame, etc. -- also did not join the original Big East. Geographically, Dayton would have been the only midwestern team in the conference. It made more sense to stick with the Great Independents. Marquette won the national championship in 1977, and DePaul was a Top 5 team in the early 80s.

Second, the program continued to flourish (relatively speaking) for another decade or so. Our big troubles on the court did not really start until after Donoher was fired, i.e. the JOB-era.

Third, the failure to be included in the original Big East didn't seem to hurt Marquette, Notre Dame, or DePaul, who all eventually did join the Big East and are doing fine (except maybe DePaul, performance-wise, but this has little to do with their failure to join the original Big East).

So maybe mistakes were made in the 70s and 80s, but I'm not sure the failure to join the original Big East was one of them. It just doesn't seem like it was feasible at the time.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer Yeah, but just five years prior, Donoher had UD in the Elite Eight, something UD has not come even remotely close to since. Four years prior to Donoher's firing, we lost to eventual champion Villanova by 2 points in the Dance. Donoher was also the only coach to take UD to the national championship game. Maybe you have a little more patience and grace with a guy like that. Bad karma...

And from 1975 until 2000 we were not ranked once in the AP 25.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[ClevelandFlyer05]

In regards to the ACC, Florida State voted against the increased exit fee (they were the only school other than Maryland to do so). From Seminole fans I know, they are not happy with the general direction of the ACC and I am inclined to believe that FSU would strongly consider moving to the Big XII if the opportunity presented itself.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 In regards to the ACC, Florida State voted against the increased exit fee (they were the only school other than Maryland to do so). From Seminole fans I know, they are not happy with the general direction of the ACC and I am inclined to believe that FSU would strongly consider moving to the Big XII if the opportunity presented itself.

You may be right...FSU is closer to B12 schools than WVU.

Interesting that the B12 is sitting still, not with 14 schools, or 12, but with ten! They seem happy with ten.

Can that last? Doesn't seem likely. If they move, I agree, FSU would be a likely target. But, suppose the B12 does have its eye on FSU....indeed, FSU is the #1 target. FSU would also jump at an SEC invitation...in fact, that would be much better for them. That being the case, can the B12 sit on its hands thinking that it can nab FSU any time it wants...the way the ACC knows it can have either UC any time it wants?

The Big 12 seems so content to sit and watch.

Odd.

[longtimefan]

The biggest mistake UD made in the 70's was not getting into the Eddie Einhorn TV package. Terrible move. I'm not sure we ever had the chance to get into the Big East. I believe a more real possibility at the time was the Metro, but we wanted to remain aligned with DePaul, Marquette, and Notre Dame, hence the Great Independents in the 80's. And now these schools are ****ing all over us.

[kiefaber455]

Originally Posted by Viperstick Back in 2001, I asked Doug Hauschild about UD's failure to get into the original Big East. Here's what he responded with: I have no doubt that Frericks thought twice about some of the slimy characters that have since come to dominate the media side of the college sports enterprise, but the lack fo vision at that time continues to hurt us to this day.

Story I've heard is that the TV package was being built around Saturday afternoon games. Frericks thought that moving Dayton games from Saturday night to Saturday afternoon wouldn't sit well with the "Bluehaired" faithful, so he took a pass.

[SeasonTicketFan]

I thought that WHIO had an exclusive and UD did not make any attempt to renegotiate it to get in the national contract. The first year Notre Dame was winless or close to winless but on TV every weekend. UD was not....

The shipped sailed in the 70s and UD was left behind. Donoher struggled to get competitive talent once that happened. He did get some major catches, but not nearly enough.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan The biggest mistake UD made in the 70's was not getting into the Eddie Einhorn TV package. Terrible move. I'm not sure we ever had the chance to get into the Big East. I believe a more real possibility at the time was the Metro, but we wanted to remain aligned with DePaul, Marquette, and Notre Dame, hence the Great Independents in the 80's. And now these schools are ****ing all over us.

Longtime: Get me up to speed here. So did the other Great Independents get involved with the TV deal? My first Flyer memories are from around 1984 (good timing, eh?)

And why do you think Marquette, DePaul, and Notre Dame kept pace, while we fell behind? Those were sort of our peers until the JOB era, even if they beat us more than we beat them. What enabled them to **** all over us now? What did they do differently than us?

[bobber]

Just some reading. Nothing new information-wise.

http://www.golocalprov.com/sports/jo...ng-out-loud68/

[rasta man]

Can anybody explain what's the beef G'town and Marquette have with us? I know we should have a beef with G'town because of the thuggish play where our guy got ko'ed by a G'town player in the 84 NCAA (I can't recall the names) but I don't get it the other way. Yeah Al McGuire had a beef about the fieldhouse but that was like in 1967

Personally I don't get why DePaul is kept in the mix, they haven't been remotely relevant except for one NCAA appearance in like 04. They have crap facilities, don't draw the flies and are totally off the media scene in Chicago. If any team screams "Horizon League" its DePaul. Heck we draw more eyes to the TV than the DePaul base

[bobber]

I don't know that either of those two schools hate us, as much as they seem to have other schools they want to advance......Marquette has Creighton, and the closeness of the administrations at both schools is well known, and Georgetown wants a "local" school that will make an easy bus trip for it's non-revenue teams, and the Virginia schools fit that description.

Are you really serious asking about DePaul? They are in the Big East. No one is going to expell them.

[RegionFlyer]

I understand all of the conversation about a watershed moment. But I really think, collectively, we cannot succumb to this paranoia and develop an inferiority complex.

Interesting to look at our all-time records against this group of schools:

DePaul 35-34
Georgetown 1-2
Marquette 14-21 (although we've won 5 of the last 6)
Providence 5-2
St. John's 5-5
Seton Hall 7-4
Villanova 5-5
Creighton 7-4
Xavier 85-75
Butler 10-12

That's 174-164 vs this group

Oh and we're 25-24 vs St. Louis...and 12-8 vs Richmond.

No reason to take a back seat to them. If we ultimately join the league, great. If not, just dominate the A-10 and kick their tails in the NCAA Tournament.

As a University, UD has done a fantastic job in growing to become one of the premier Catholic Universities in America.

I refuse to think that what Marquette and Georgetown want will relegate us to second-class status...Just keep being UD, and we'll be fine.

Go Flyers!!

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Flyer69ers]

Nicely done, RegionFlyer.
(plus we have kicked Louisville and Pitts butts also.
Nothng to be ashamed of outside of the A 10)

Hopefully we can build on this in the upcoming "future".

[Viperstick]

Let's take a trip in the Way Back Machine!

1) From the Chicago Tribune, circa 1985. Looks like the "Great Independents" series began in 1984 with a three year committment to round robin play (note: some of the schools played each other before this, but none as the informal Great Independents league). Note Dayton & Marquette's desire for a more formal league, while Notre Dame is notably cool to the idea.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...ing-notre-dame

2) From Milwaukee Sentinel Newspaper, circa 1987. Note the sense that Marquette was hoping just as much as Dayton that the Great Independent arrangement would coalesce into something more permanent. Maybe someone should show them this to bring them back down to earth.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=4909,6920890

3) Here's one from some digital library, circa 1986. Read up towards the top where Billy PACCker was trying to set up a league with UD, Marquette, DePaul, Notre Dame, L-Ville, & either Detroit or Cleveland State. Interesting side bar about UD, DePaul, & Marquette waiting to see what the others would do.

http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt7k6d5p9190_9/text

4) For all the WSU lovers out there, here's the Horizon League history where UD was one of the first programs involved in formation talks. Note that we were sharing the table in 1978 with Bradley, Detroit, DePaul, X, Loyola, and, of all programs, Air Force. We obviously took a pass then, but joined up nine years later. Also note how Notre Dame agreed to play all MCC teams in basketball.

http://www.horizonleague.org/aboutus/history.html

5) Finally, here's what it's like to be the desired commodity, rather than, well, what we are now. From Chicago Tribune circa 1987. Dayton accepts MCC offer ahead of Marquette (who joined a year later) and is awarded the MCC tourney (critical to our 1990 NCAA trip of false hope). Note the emphasis on TV, the continued courtship of the Irish (making an exception to accept a football playing member), and the foresight to require minimum venue seating requirements (don't want to be playing in a gym on TV). Note that the MCC must have abandoned this last requirement when they admitted LaSalle a few years later.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...ate-conference

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[bobber]

You, Sir, did your homework!

Very interesting,

[Viperstick]

SPOILER ALERT!!!

If you don't want to feel any worse about this situation, don't click on the link below, it's full of vile hatred for UD by many Marquette message boarders. Needless to say, most don't want to see us get in. There were a couple of fans who posted supportive comments, this one gave a glimmer of hope that maybe the truth will prevail (but the dude went to UD Law, so maybe it's not wholly objective):

I voted for Dayton. I went there for law school. However, my reasons are different. Forget Shaka Smart, or any other coach for that matter. We need to assess the new members of the conference based on their investment in their programs--basketball and other sports. Dayton has done a great job supporting athletics. The proof is they have their own arena--not an on campus facility, an on campus arena. They built that arena back in the day when we were still at the Old Gym and the Al was not even on the back burner. I maintained, during the darkest of the Dukiet years, that we would be back because as a fan base, we were still buying tickets and "investing" in basketball". I use that same analysis now. The Dayton fan base is very committed and I think they will spend money on the program--which is my measuring stick. The city sucks, but the campus is pretty nice. Rather than compare Dayton to Creighton, compare them to DePaul. They pass that test for sure. I do not know enough about VCU and Richmond compared to Dayton but my sense is Dayton is a better bet. Dayton is certainly the equal of Creighton and SLU.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=11330359

[ud2]

http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=5408#more-5408

If this was already posted, my apologies.


-ND is supposedly not joining the c7 next year for one year. Some of the c7 apparently don't want ND for only one year.

-the c7 may just go with 9 teams for next year. Butler and Xavier plus the 7 and no one else. Creighton, Richmond, Dayton, and Saint Louis are on call as potential additional members.

-new league begins doing business on July 1.

-expect an announcement anywhere from Monday through Wednesday.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[ud2]

Wow. Check this out.

The attendance for mighty Georgetown is not nearly as strong as I expected. Only 5,283 vs. Longwood?

From the Marquette board:


Why does Georgetown struggle to get crowd's to come to the games?

After 16 games, they are average attendance is 10,282

11/11/12 DUQUESNE W 61-55 8213
11/14/12 LIBERTY W 68-59 6743
11/24/12 MOUNT W 72-50 7467
11/30/12 Tennessee W 37-36 13656
12/8/12 TOWSON W 46-40 8322
12/10/12 LONGWOOD W 89-53 5283
12/15/12 WESTERN CAROLINA W 81-68 7341
12/22/12 AMERICAN W 65-48 9867
01/08/13 PITTSBURGH L 45-73 13011
01/16/13 PROVIDENCE W 74-65 9210
01/26/13 LOUISVILLE W 53-51 17474
01/30/13 SETON HALL W 74-52 7567
02/02/13 ST. JOHN'S W 68-56 15625
02/11/13 MARQUETTE W 63-55 11821
02/20/13 DEPAUL W 90-66 9987
03/03/13 RUTGERS W 64-51 12931
03/10/13 Syracuse

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[dannardo]

Originally Posted by ud2 http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=5408#more-5408 If this was already posted, my apologies. -ND is supposedly not joining the c7 next year for one year. Some of the c7 apparently don't want ND for only one year. -the c7 may just go with 9 teams for next year. Butler and Xavier plus the 7 and no one else. Creighton, Richmond, Dayton, and Saint Louis are on call as potential additional members. -new league begins doing business on July 1. -expect an announcement anywhere from Monday through Wednesday.

Essentially corroborates the report from Jeff Goodman (cbssports) from a few days ago.
Kind of makes sense. If you are trying to decide which three of the remaining four to add to your new conference, waiting a year might be smart for the new Big East.
Can Creighton win without McDermott? Wait a year to make that assessment and to see if Coach McDermott can really recruit.
Is Archie Miller going to be a winner at UD? Wait another year to evaluate...
Can Crews maintain Majerus' program at SLU?
Is Richmond a better choice than any of the above?

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Medford]

File under the "for whatever its worth" folder....

I cruised over to the Richmond board, I can't find anyone there that says "relax, we're in" or "my sources in the athletic department says we're expected to get the call".

In a world where everyone and their brother has a source, I found that interesting. Worthless perhaps, but interesting.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[FlyerFanatic08]

can someone explain to me why exactly they would only go to 9-10 then add more the following year?

i can only think a couple of things:

1. they want to see how going with just 9 goes, maybe 10 with creighton
2. they want to go to 12...but can't come to an agreement on who to add (if they went to 14 this wouldnt be a problem)
3. they want to try to entice ND as the 10th team then hope they stick with the C7 group for all their sports other than football

i mean all reasonable guesses i suppose...i still think a lot are unlikely though.

just seems so so odd...makes me start to think that maybe these reports are all wrong? maybe somebody decided to leak all this info just to cause a stir. maybe even throw everyone off?

[Medford]

Some talk of it previously in this thread, some other possibilities:

They had a gentleman's agreement w/ the A-10 not to take 4 teams all at once, on top of Temple & UNCC leaving next season, so they agreed to postpone 2 A-10 teams a season.

Fox offered them 40 mil for 12 teams, 30 mil for 10 teams, but has agreed to pay them the full 40 mil for the first season at just 9 or 10 teams to help the conference w/ the naming rights, league exit fees (for A-10 schools) and league startup fees. Don't know if there is any credence to that, saw it somewhere and it made "sense" as a possibility, but there may be little truth.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Charlotte CHARLOTTE UNC Charlotte is one of a generation of universities founded in metropolitan areas of the United States immediately after World War II in response to rising education demands generated by the war and its technology. Now a research intensive university, UNC Charlotte is the fourth largest of the 16 institutions within the University of North Carolina system and the largest institution in the Charlotte region. The university comprises seven professional colleges and currently offers 18 doctoral programs, 62 master’s degree programs and 90 bachelor’s degrees. More than 900 full-time faculty comprise the university’s academic departments and the 2007 fall enrollment exceeded 22,300 students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the 49ers.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08 can someone explain to me why exactly they would only go to 9-10 then add more the following year? i can only think a couple of things: 1. they want to see how going with just 9 goes, maybe 10 with creighton 2. they want to go to 12...but can't come to an agreement on who to add (if they went to 14 this wouldnt be a problem) 3. they want to try to entice ND as the 10th team then hope they stick with the C7 group for all their sports other than football i mean all reasonable guesses i suppose...i still think a lot are unlikely though. just seems so so odd...makes me start to think that maybe these reports are all wrong? maybe somebody decided to leak all this info just to cause a stir. maybe even throw everyone off?

In a wide ranging interview several years ago I heard then BE commish, Mike Tranghese, explain that the ideal size for a BB conference is nine schools. That provides for a 16 game home-and-home schedule.....most fair,...everyone gets to play everyone else home and away.

That does not take into account TV issues...just what is best for the teams, scheduling, competition, etc.

By selecting X and BU they have the cream of the crop, giving the league five really strong programs, SJU/NYC,...and three very lucky hangers-on.

If TV demands a larger footprint in the future, Dayton adds nothing. We are sandwiched between X and BU. That's one of the reasons we aren't going to make it. The other is that our program is more like the current BE hangers-on that it is like their five power schools.

After OP left we lost a decade moving sideways,...cannot recover from that.

	St Joseph's ST. JOSEPH'S Founded by the Society of Jesus in 1851, Saint Joseph's University advances the professional and personal ambitions of men and women by providing a demanding, yet supportive educational experience. One of only 139 schools nationwide with a Phi Beta Kappa chapter and AACSB business school accreditation, Saint Joseph's is home to 4,200 full-time undergraduates and 3,100 graduate, part-time and doctoral candidates. Located in urban Philadelphia, SJU is a fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Hawks. Athletic claim to fame is is the Hawk mascot, a university student on full scholarship who wears a Hawk uniform and flaps his wings continuously for an entire athletic event. School spirit slogan is "The Hawk Will Never Die."

[bobber]

Some things we (think we) know.

* Fox wants 12 teams.

* The C7 may be paying the A10 exit fees for Butler and Xavier (less than 1 yr notice 4 Mil)

* The C7 is also paying to keep the Big East name.

* Creighton has no exit fee whatsoever from the MVC.

* Teams that leave the A10 with a full year's notice only pay 1 Mil exit fee each.

* To join the C7 in 14/15 and skip a 2 Mil A10 fee, schools must declare by July, 2013.

* Every media heavyweight (ESPN, SI, Wash. Post) has reported Creighton, SLU and UD in 14/15

* Fox is expected to hold a presser on Tuesday or Wednesday and might deal with some or all of the issue.

Whew......that's what we seem to know.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[bobber]

Nothing new, but interesting.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/tee...,2271168.story

[Flyer69ers]

Not true that Dayton adds nothing to the Butler/X TV market.
As was accurately stated in another thread, UD has a huge Alumni base on the East Coast - (There used to be a "Knick Train" from UD to NY for the holidays - maybe still is)

Also a huge Alumni base here in Chicago. We are everywhere! and we are avid Flyer fans wherever we are.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by Flyer69ers Not true that Dayton adds nothing to the Butler/X TV market. As was accurately stated in another thread, UD has a huge Alumni base on the East Coast - (There used to be a "Knick Train" from UD to NY for the holidays - maybe still is) Also a huge Alumni base here in Chicago. We are everywhere! and we are avid Flyer fans wherever we are.

Define huge. There are about 6000 alumni that call all of NY, NJ and CT home. In all of IL it is just under 6000. One would probably be better off touting the Cleveland market.

[ClevelandFlyer05]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer In a wide ranging interview several years ago I heard then BE commish, Mike Tranghese, explain that the ideal size for a BB conference is nine schools. That provides for a 16 game home-and-home schedule.....most fair,...everyone gets to play everyone else home and away. That does not take into account TV issues...just what is best for the teams, scheduling, competition, etc. By selecting X and BU they have the cream of the crop, giving the league five really strong programs, SJU/NYC,...and three very lucky hangers-on. If TV demands a larger footprint in the future, Dayton adds nothing. We are sandwiched between X and BU. That's one of the reasons we aren't going to make it. The other is that our program is more like the current BE hangers-on that it is like their five power schools. After OP left we lost a decade moving sideways,...cannot recover from that.

With the expanded conference schedule, I think that 10 is actually ideal.

	St Joseph's ST. JOSEPH'S Founded by the Society of Jesus in 1851, Saint Joseph's University advances the professional and personal ambitions of men and women by providing a demanding, yet supportive educational experience. One of only 139 schools nationwide with a Phi Beta Kappa chapter and AACSB business school accreditation, Saint Joseph's is home to 4,200 full-time undergraduates and 3,100 graduate, part-time and doctoral candidates. Located in urban Philadelphia, SJU is a fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Hawks. Athletic claim to fame is is the Hawk mascot, a university student on full scholarship who wears a Hawk uniform and flaps his wings continuously for an entire athletic event. School spirit slogan is "The Hawk Will Never Die."

[UDGutter2]

Win the next 12 and they will be begging UD to join.

[frisco flyer]

Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08 can someone explain to me why exactly they would only go to 9-10 then add more the following year? i can only think a couple of things: 1. they want to see how going with just 9 goes, maybe 10 with creighton 2. they want to go to 12...but can't come to an agreement on who to add (if they went to 14 this wouldnt be a problem) 3. they want to try to entice ND as the 10th team then hope they stick with the C7 group for all their sports other than football i mean all reasonable guesses i suppose...i still think a lot are unlikely though. just seems so so odd...makes me start to think that maybe these reports are all wrong? maybe somebody decided to leak all this info just to cause a stir. maybe even throw everyone off?

One more reason: they don't have the stomach to pay the $4 millions exit fees for UD and STL to play in the league next year.

[Rick Scaia]

Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08 can someone explain to me why exactly they would only go to 9-10 then add more the following year? [...] just seems so so odd...makes me start to think that maybe these reports are all wrong? maybe somebody decided to leak all this info just to cause a stir. maybe even throw everyone off?

My thinking is pretty simple: the "normal" way of doing business in jumping conference usually involves more than 4 months notice. Teams announcing -- in March -- plans to jump to a new conference starting on July 1 is unusual; teams announcing a move to the BE7 for start of play in 2014 would actually be the more standard timeline.

What's (reportedly) happening with Butler and Eggs is the odd and extraordinary circumstance, and it's almost certainly happening because Fox wants to start with the 2013 season. Getting those two (with ND/Creighton as a possible third) is a purely emergency move so that the New Big East is open for business on July 1, and just-barely TV-ready come this fall. No matter what the costs or logistical hurdles.

Then, getting up to "full power" can be done on the standard timeline, without incurring said extra costs or headaches. Please note: this means this concept of the Big East wanting to take an extra year to "scout" prospective additions holds little water. The Big East isn't going to wait another whole calendar year and THEN announce the 2 new schools, because that just puts them back in the same giant mess that they're going to have to go through with Butler and Eggs, and that would be stupid. The extra 2 schools will be afforded the chance to make their transition much more gracefully.

Ideally, they'd announce the full two-tier plans in the coming week, all in one fell swoop, but that's probably as unrealistic as them waiting till next March to decide. I suspect that they'll announce the expansion to 9 or 10 (again, a necessity due to Fox wanting to use the announcement to start selling ad time at a huge industry conference), and then finish the expansion to 12 in June or July (when the time line is dictated by collegiate athletics timelines, and not TV's).

But either way, none of this "they're going to take an extra year to keep grading us" nonsense works for me. They have all the information they need, and no one season (or how we finish the season) is going to significantly change our profile. These are university presidents making the decisions, here, not diptards from sportstalk radio who lack the attention span and critical thinking ability to synthesize information from longer than 4 days ago.


Rick

[FlyerFanatic08]

Originally Posted by Rick Scaia My thinking is pretty simple: the "normal" way of doing business in jumping conference usually involves more than 4 months notice. Teams announcing -- in March -- plans to jump to a new conference starting on July 1 is unusual; teams announcing a move to the BE7 for start of play in 2014 would actually be the more standard timeline. What's (reportedly) happening with Butler and Eggs is the odd and extraordinary circumstance, and it's almost certainly happening because Fox wants to start with the 2013 season. Getting those two (with ND/Creighton as a possible third) is a purely emergency move so that the New Big East is open for business on July 1, and just-barely TV-ready come this fall. No matter what the costs or logistical hurdles. Then, getting up to "full power" can be done on the standard timeline, without incurring said extra costs or headaches. Please note: this means this concept of the Big East wanting to take an extra year to "scout" prospective additions holds little water. The Big East isn't going to wait another whole calendar year and THEN announce the 2 new schools, because that just puts them back in the same giant mess that they're going to have to go through with Butler and Eggs, and that would be stupid. The extra 2 schools will be afforded the chance to make their transition much more gracefully. Ideally, they'd announce the full two-tier plans in the coming week, all in one fell swoop, but that's probably as unrealistic as them waiting till next March to decide. I suspect that they'll announce the expansion to 9 or 10 (again, a necessity due to Fox wanting to use the announcement to start selling ad time at a huge industry conference), and then finish the expansion to 12 in June or July (when the time line is dictated by collegiate athletics timelines, and not TV's). But either way, none of this "they're going to take an extra year to keep grading us" nonsense works for me. They have all the information they need, and no one season (or how we finish the season) is going to significantly change our profile. These are university presidents making the decisions, here, not diptards from sportstalk radio who lack the attention span and critical thinking ability to synthesize information from longer than 4 days ago. Rick

good post...and i agree. though i can definitely see presidents not all on the same page on who to add. so for me...its not so much that they're going to take this extra year to evaluate us...as much as its how much politics is involved and can curran/wabler convince them to go with dayton say over a richmond.

like you i would love to hear them announce the plans all in 1 swoop...but even having to wait until june/july still leaves you worried because again who knows how much politics is going on. so much could change.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Tim Wabler TIM WABLER Current Director of Athletics for the University of Dayton. Took over for Ted Kissell on Jan. 1, 2009, and brings considerable experience and leadership in athletics. Assistant AD for many years and a former standout baseball player for the Flyers, Wabler has Dayton roots and understands the unique paradigm that makes Flyer athletics and the city of Dayton a tremendous relationship.