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  #1  
Old 01-14-2019, 01:27 PM
O Doyle Rules O Doyle Rules is offline
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Ref permits a practice free throw during UMass game?

Did anyone else notice this?

A timeout was called right after Trey was fouled and he had free throws to shoot. Trey is first on the floor after the timeout before the other players are on the floor. It's still a dead ball situation. He's chatting up the Ref. The Ref tosses him the ball and Trey shoots a "practice" free throw.

I don't see how this is allowed under the rules. Especially since the player that is shooting the "practice" free throw is due to shoot free throws when play resumes.

What's the rule? Allowed or not? I was expecting the UMass coach to throw a fit, but no protest came.

I know Trey made his first free throw when play resumed, but I can't remember if he made both. The "practice" free throw seems like an advantage to me. Even if this situation is not covered by the rules, it seems like very bad decision by the referee which IMO could be viewed as being biased towards one team.

I know had the situation been reversed and the Ref had allowed a UMass player to shoot a "practice" free throw, I think the Arena would have erupted. I know I would have.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:38 PM
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I noticed that too, and thought it was really weird. I had never seen that happen before in my approximately 60 years of watching basketball. I'm guessing McCall didn't see it.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:43 PM
O Doyle Rules O Doyle Rules is offline
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I'm sure glad you saw it too. I was asking myself did that just happened?

I am like you - almost 60 years of watching basketball and have never seen it before.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:49 PM
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Back in June, 2014 I addressed this in a You Make the Call scenario.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25614

FWIW, it's a violation for a coach to take a player onto the court to practice something like a FT...but it's not a violation for a ref to do it.

So while it's a strange situation, it's legal.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:55 PM
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The ref should never have given him the ball. Bad judgement. Bad optics.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Back in June, 2014 I addressed this in a You Make the Call scenario.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25614

FWIW, it's a violation for a coach to take a player onto the court to practice something like a FT...but it's not a violation for a ref to do it.

So while it's a strange situation, it's legal.
There you go "thread recycling" again!
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:06 PM
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The ref laid into him for shooting it.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:07 PM
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Wow! I am just stunned that this is legal. And if am the coach and I have a player that is due to shoot free throws after a timeout, I am instructing all my players to do exactly what Trey did before play resumes.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by hoch21 View Post
The ref laid into him for shooting it.
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From my vantage point, it did not appear that way to me. Trey took his time and shot a relaxed free throw just like he would in a game. I thought the conversation between him and the Ref appeared very friendly.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by hoch21 View Post
The ref laid into him for shooting it.
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I watched the entire sequence. I wouldn't come close to characterizing it as "the ref laid into him". Yes, the ref (Ayers) talked to Trey about taking the shot. Truthfully, I think he (ref) was embarassed that it even happened and the conversation probably went as such. I doubt Trey even knew there was/wasn't such a rule.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
There you go "thread recycling" again!
From now on when someone chastises me for getting off topic, I'm going to say I'm just "repurposing" the thread.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by O Doyle Rules View Post
Wow! I am just stunned that this is legal. And if am the coach and I have a player that is due to shoot free throws after a timeout, I am instructing all my players to do exactly what Trey did before play resumes.
Should the ref had given a 'T' to himself? or Trey? If you say Trey deserved the 'T', please tell me why.

The ref passed the ball to Trey...had he bounce-passed it back would that be a 'T' for practicing 'passing'? Had he dribbled it between his legs and then passed it to the ref would it be 2 T's...one for practicing a dribble and another for practicing a pass? What if Trey had just tossed it off the glass for a layup?? C'mon people...regardless of who did what (UMass or UD player shooting a FT) it's not illegal. Learn the rules!

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Old 01-14-2019, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by O Doyle Rules View Post
From my vantage point, it did not appear that way to me. Trey took his time and shot a relaxed free throw just like he would in a game. I thought the conversation between him and the Ref appeared very friendly.

Agree. The ref did not lay into him at all. I sit in the end zone near where the shot was taken. They were joking around. I have no clue why the ref gave Trey the ball.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:46 PM
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The ref handed him the ball and was quite surprised when Trey shot it. Ref was not happy and let Trey know it.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:04 PM
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Why did the ref hand the ball to Trey? It is his responsibility to be in charge of the ball.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Why did the ref hand the ball to Trey? It is his responsibility to be in charge of the ball.

It was starting to get heavy.

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Old 01-14-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Why did the ref hand the ball to Trey? It is his responsibility to be in charge of the ball.
That's the first thing I thought, too, but if you watch Trey during games, he's always talking to the refs...so I'm guessing Trey just left the huddle early and asked the ref if he 'could see the ball' and the ref naively tossed it to him thinking he'd throw it right back.

But who knows!?!
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:32 PM
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More important. I was relieved that Trey made the two free throws. That made three in a row. The way the team was shooting FTs yesterday, I held my breath for both of the real FTs.
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
That's the first thing I thought, too, but if you watch Trey during games, he's always talking to the refs..:
Not only the ref, but players on the other team. More than once I have seen an opponent (or team mate) either bust out laughing at Trey or give him an ugly stare down. I would love to hear what he is saying at times, can we mike him up during a game? Yes, I know the answer to that one.....
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:42 PM
O Doyle Rules O Doyle Rules is offline
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Should the ref had given a 'T' to himself? or Trey? If you say Trey deserved the 'T', please tell me why.

The ref passed the ball to Trey...had he bounce-passed it back would that be a 'T' for practicing 'passing'? Had he dribbled it between his legs and then passed it to the ref would it be 2 T's...one for practicing a dribble and another for practicing a pass? What if Trey had just tossed it off the glass for a layup?? C'mon people...regardless of who did what (UMass or UD player shooting a FT) it's not illegal. Learn the rules!

Or commit to memory all of my You Make the Call threads!!!

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I didn't say anyone deserved a "T', and I was not arguing if it was legal or not. All I was indicating is the obvious - Trey and UD gained an advantage by the referee allowing it to happen. Trey was not at fault - it's the referee who caused the problem by relinquishing the ball to the player.

The referee allowing this to happen is akin to a football official allowing the field goal kicker to kick a "practice" field goal right after timeout is called to freeze him. The passing and dribbling examples you cite have little or nothing to do with this situation since those actions do not directly impact the score of the game.

I agree with you - I would like to learn the rules. Please explain to this uninformed neophyte where and how does the rulebook says this is a legal play?

Does somewhere in the rulebook does it state that the referee has the discretion to hand the game ball to a player of his chosing during timeouts to do with as he wishes?

Or are you saying it is legal because the rulebook does not directly address this situation at all so a referee can make a stupid decision like this all on his own?

Eagerly awaiting your reply. Thank you!

Last edited by O Doyle Rules; 01-14-2019 at 11:17 PM..
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by O Doyle Rules View Post
……….. Please explain to this uninformed neopyte where and how does the rulebook says this is a legal play?...….
so as a "uninformed neopyte" you are asking another "uninformed neopyte" what the rules are? Don't expect a cogent answer.....
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
That's the first thing I thought, too, but if you watch Trey during games, he's always talking to the refs...so I'm guessing Trey just left the huddle early and asked the ref if he 'could see the ball' and the ref naively tossed it to him thinking he'd throw it right back.

But who knows!?!
Ayers was on the officiating crew the other night. Black slicked back hair. He is one of the best in the business and is widely respected by the big conference coaches.

I will say, for being a "mid" major, we do get big name officials. Ayers, andas much as I can't stand them...Carstensen (who hasn't been here for years and is a big conference guy now) and TV Teddy...Bert Smith, Mike Eades, Mike Roberts...All guys with regular NCAA invites.

These guys are at the arena pretty regularly. We typically don't get scrubs...there is usually a pretty experienced crew or at least a portion of the crew are respected veterans.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TerryK_67 View Post
so as a "uninformed neopyte" you are asking another "uninformed neopyte" what the rules are? Don't expect a cogent answer.....
Then again, I am an "uniformed neopyte" who can't even spell neophyte!
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:42 PM
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I have to think other refs cant stand working with the Tedster. They know he's a decent official, but the problem is Ted is in love with Ted. It's all about Ted from the pre-game stretching to the postgame handshakes. If Ted aint the center of attention, he's going to do something to make sure that happens. It sort of undermines the value and importance of the other two officials when things should be a unified team effort to not just call a fair game, but to let the basketball be the entertainment and not the zebras auditioning for the stage.

Ill take Carstensen (aka Bull from Night Court) any day, but it seems like its been forever since hes been at the Arena.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Ayers was on the officiating crew the other night. Black slicked back hair. He is one of the best in the business and is widely respected by the big conference coaches.

I will say, for being a "mid" major, we do get big name officials. Ayers, andas much as I can't stand them...Carstensen (who hasn't been here for years and is a big conference guy now) and TV Teddy...Bert Smith, Mike Eades, Mike Roberts...All guys with regular NCAA invites.

These guys are at the arena pretty regularly. We typically don't get scrubs...there is usually a pretty experienced crew or at least a portion of the crew are respected veterans.
I'm sure it don't hurt that the games they ref at the arena are on national tv
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
I'm sure it don't hurt that the games they ref at the arena are on national tv
The selection of them is by school and conference...with the host school footing the bill. I would say with UD's coffers they probably are able to secure the better ones.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by O Doyle Rules View Post
I agree with you - I would like to learn the rules. Please explain to this uninformed neophyte where and how does the rulebook says this is a legal play?

Does somewhere in the rulebook does it state that the referee has the discretion to hand the game ball to a player of his chosing during timeouts to do with as he wishes?

Or are you saying it is legal because the rulebook does not directly address this situation at all so a referee can make a stupid decision like this all on his own?

Eagerly awaiting your reply. Thank you!
It's legal (or should I say 'not illegal') because the rules cover the behavior of the players and coaches. The ref made a mistake...can't penalize anyone in this case.

Had Trey forcibly taken the ball from the ref to shoot a practice FT, that is covered...had Trey taken a practice ball and walked out to shoot a practice FT, that would be covered. But nothing that happened on the court with respect to this situation is covered in the Rule book.

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Old 01-15-2019, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
It's legal (or should I say 'not illegal') because the rules cover the behavior of the players and coaches. The ref made a mistake...can't penalize anyone in this case.

Had Trey forcibly taken the ball from the ref to shoot a practice FT, that is covered...had Trey taken a practice ball and walked out to shoot a practice FT, that would be covered. But nothing that happened on the court with respect to this situation is covered in the Rule book.

King Rollo the Neophyte...OUT!
So you are saying it is legal ("not illegal") because the rulebook does not directly address this situation at all so a referee can make a stupid decision like this all on his own. - King Neophyte, I think we agree the referee made a stupid decision which potentially could have, maybe, possibly or did impact the outcome of the game.

Let me ask this from peasant neophyte to King Neophyte - Doesn't refereeing class 101 cover who is to maintain possession of the basketball during timeouts?

You say no penalty for anyone - Does a mistake of this magnitude by the referee cause for concern by the governing body who supervises the NCAA referees and could he possibly be subject to some sort of reprimand?
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:40 AM
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Good God, O’Doyle, this was a mistake but certainly not the crime of the century, and it didn’t swing the game one way or the other. I mean how many times have you seen a player shoot a layup or jump shot after the whistle has blown, creating a stoppage in action? Are you going to say those guys are “practicing” their shots? Mountain, molehill.

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Old 01-15-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by O Doyle Rules View Post
You say no penalty for anyone - Does a mistake of this magnitude by the referee cause for concern by the governing body who supervises the NCAA referees and could he possibly be subject to some sort of reprimand?
From one neophyte to another, if this official was being evaluated, there is little doubt he got an earful after the game. I've been evaluated and have been asked to evaluate others and in the locker room, there is little need for political correctness.

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Old 01-15-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
Good God, O’Doyle, this isn’t the crime of the century and it didn’t swing the game one way or the other. I mean how many times have you seen a player shoot a layup or jump shot after the whistle has blown, creating a stoppage in action? Are you going to say those guys are “practicing” their shots? Mountain, molehill.

Good God, the Fly, I have seen that thousands of times. I have seen what we are discussing once during my lifetime. The situations you are describing are totally different. Apples, oranges.

I am talking about the referee making a mistake which could have impacted the game. I think your attitude would have been different had the referee allowed this to occur with a UMass player and the player then sinks two free throws to win the game.

BTW, I am a lifetime Flyer Fan. Sometimes reader of this forum and seldom poster. I thought this subject was worthy of discussion since it was something I had only seen once in over 55 years of watching basketball. Guess, I am wrong. I guess a "discussion" forum is the wrong "forum".
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:19 AM
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FWIW, the High School rulebook...of which 99% is reflected in the NCAA Rulebook...Rule 2.7.4 (Official's General Duties) states "The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Prohibiting practice during a dead ball, except between halves."

As for The Fly's comment...I think this is a bigger deal than you're allowing. Fans go nuts over things like block/charge, traveling, over-the-back, etc...all of which are subjective calls. Passing the ball to a FT shooter in a close game during a dead ball that results in him/her getting a free practice FT is an obvious and non-arguable breach of professional protocol! There's nothing subjective about it...the ref screwed up...royally!

This - unlike other subjective calls - gave the offense an obvious advantage. For example, did you notice that in the last minute my main man Sir Trey Landers was twice sent to the FT line to shoot 2 FTs? In both cases he missed the 1st and made the 2nd. In the case of the practice FT, he mode both. Even Terry67 can put 2 and 2 together to say that making the 1st gets you in a rhythm and missing the 1st allows you to adjust. And Trey kinda, sorta, maybe proved it.

Regardless, the opponent seemed oblivious and nothing was said/done about it...at least not publicly. But I can 100% guarantee you that if UMass had been given the same treatment - win or lose - a dozen or more UDPride members and armchair officials with vast experience playing at the YMCA would have contacted the NCAA about the quality of A10 officials.
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:30 AM
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The extra FT situation was brought to AG's attention last night during his radio show. AG had absolutely no clue that it even happened...none. His only reaction was "it's a good thing he made both FT's...". Of course, Trey went on to miss a couple later on.
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:51 AM
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Not everything is in the rule book, or can be, in any sport. The obvious things get put in, then the rules get adjusted as things occur. Who knows maybe that incident will prompt a rule change. Every referee class is different, just like every Marketing 101 is different. They cannot cover every situation and rule interpretation, as it would take too much time. In my Ref class the instructor verbally covered the fact that "the referee is in charge of the ball". What does that mean? He did not say. Many referees will set the ball down at the scorer's table. Seems okay. Give it to another person, and you give up control. I have seen referees hand to ball to players before the game, so they could check the "feel" of the ball. Not okay.

The basic "fairness" code you are taught is don't do anything to give one team an advantage.

I am with Rollo. You can be sure this ref was told, the obvious at that point, by his ref mates, and probably a supervisor of officials, don't ever do that again.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:10 AM
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I acknowledged it as a mistake, breach of protocol, whatever. And I trust the ref involved was suitably chastised, warned, suspended, whatever. I just don’t see the point in deliberating this ad nauseum. I doubt that one extra “practice” free throw resulted in anything of consequence regarding the game itself. A blown charge call, however ........ :-)
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:22 AM
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I thought deliberating ad nauseum is what message boards are for?
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:52 AM
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Ad nauseum?


This thread is still less than 24 hours old. I found the topic interesting.


Plus, O'doyle asked Rollo for clarification, because Rollo's original responses were indicating that Trey didn't do anything wrong, but O'doyle wanted to know if the Ref did anything wrong.


OK...NOW we are talking about it ad nauseum. Sorry.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:50 PM
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Rollo is there a penalty specified in the the ohio high school rule book?
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Furio View Post
Rollo is there a penalty specified in the the ohio high school rule book?
No.

Every year the OHSAA mails me 3 books: The Rule Book, the Case Book and the Official's Manual. Each has it's obvious purpose and it's something that needs to be read over and over and over and over. And then re-read over and over. Lot's of 'A1 dives past B2 and touches A3 who bumps into B6 who is on the bench...' UGH!
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
I have seen referees hand to ball to players before the game, so they could check the "feel" of the ball. Not okay.

Not OK? Just to touch the ball? I can't imagine how this could be "not OK." Professional courtesy maybe.

I've never seen a pickup game where players from both sides don't want to feel the ball to make sure they've got a good one before they start playing. With 12K fans watching I think I'd like to check out the equipment first.
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