Kyle Ahrens

[springborofan]

Everyone was wondering about why AM passed on Froling. Perhaps AM thinks a 2 or 3 transfer makes more sense since we have plenty of bigs next year (Sam, Xerious, Josh, Jordan P, Greek freak II, Mikesell).

I've noticed Ahrens is getting limited time at MSU. Do you think he has noticed the growth (and opportunity) that Mikesell has experienced? I think he would be a great option with the final scholarship...

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by springborofan Everyone was wondering about why AM passed on Froling. Perhaps AM thinks a 2 or 3 transfer makes more sense since we have plenty of bigs next year (Sam, Xerious, Josh, Jordan P, Greek freak II, Mikesell). I've noticed Ahrens is getting limited time at MSU. Do you think he has noticed the growth (and opportunity) that Mikesell has experienced? I think he would be a great option with the final scholarship...

I really do not think that is what kids look for when they transfer. I would guess the main thing they are looking for is playing time, followed up by how the kid would fit in the system.

[redbengal]

Should Kostas be included in next year's group of bigs? Thought I read comments on this board a few months ago that he certainly won't be a 5 and probably not even a 4.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Widget]

Originally Posted by redbengal Should Kostas be included in next year's group of bigs? Thought I read comments on this board a few months ago that he certainly won't be a 5 and probably not even a 4. Posted via Mobile Device

Or he'll be in the NBA as some people predicted..............

[TommyGola]

Originally Posted by springborofan Everyone was wondering about why AM passed on Froling. Perhaps AM thinks a 2 or 3 transfer makes more sense since we have plenty of bigs next year (Sam, Xerious, Josh, Jordan P, Greek freak II, Mikesell). I've noticed Ahrens is getting limited time at MSU. Do you think he has noticed the growth (and opportunity) that Mikesell has experienced? I think he would be a great option with the final scholarship...

This is an interesting post. Kyle Ahrens is getting virtually no critical minutes at MSU. I began watching his minutes last year. He has freshmen playing ahead him now. I wouldn't be shocked to see Kyle end up a Flyer, where he should have been in the first place.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

I do not think Ahrens is what UD needs. Two close friends both tell the same story of Mikesell, despite only committing to the Dayton Flyers, owning Ahrens the MSU recruit during their games their senior season in high school.

[Swampy Meadows]

Kyle Ahrens had his chance to be a Flyer. He passed. The Flyers should do likewise now.

[T-Bone 84]

And Sparty lost again today, to (gulp) Penn State. Looks like a long year in store for BG's former boss, and an even longer one for our former recruiting target. Oh, well.

On to UMass!
Posted via Mobile Device

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[UDBrian]

Before Ahrens began playing for msu I heard from someone who played against him that Ahrens practiced an insane amount and didn't have a lot of upside.

[jack72]

We want a local kid who cannot play much for a team that is not on par with us? We already have that role taken by Landers.

[RamodWaleskowski]

Originally Posted by jack72 We want a local kid who cannot play much for a team that is not on par with us? We already have that role taken by Landers.

Not sure why you felt the need to take a jab at Landers. Everybody else on the roster has a ton of playing experience in comparison to him. UD does not need him to take on a ton of minutes this year so he is not playing a ton of minutes this year. That does not mean he is not good and it certainly does not mean that he does not belong.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it Jack. If you want to hate on something or someone than hate on Xavier or Hurley like everyone else. Lay off the 18 year old kid that plays for the university that you support.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by jack72 We want a local kid who cannot play much for a team that is not on par with us? We already have that role taken by Landers.

For some reason Landers sorta reminds me of Devin Oliver, and I am willing to bet his statistics over his career as a Flyer are very similar. Good kid, very athletic, with a good work ethic from all I have heard about him.

[The Fly]

Trey's obviously been foul prone, but he's also been productive offensively for the few minutes he's been in there. He has the proverbial "upside."

[jack72]

Originally Posted by RamodWaleskowski Not sure why you felt the need to take a jab at Landers. Everybody else on the roster has a ton of playing experience in comparison to him. UD does not need him to take on a ton of minutes this year so he is not playing a ton of minutes this year. That does not mean he is not good and it certainly does not mean that he does not belong. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Jack. If you want to hate on something or someone than hate on Xavier or Hurley like everyone else. Lay off the 18 year old kid that plays for the university that you support.

What are you related to him.? Every player on that team gets evaluated here. Or can we only mention kids who are over 18?

Some more tobacco for you. Trey is not even getting minutes here and there to give him experience. He has played 32 minutes in 5 games. With what is coming in next year, the future looks like more of the same. With CC hurt and DD struggling, this was the time to give him a few minutes in the first half. Maybe next game. I hope he, especially, and you prove me wrong, but he appears good enough to make the roster, but not to redshirt or play.

My point was we do not need another local guy, just because he is local. We need to get the very best players from Ohio, like Roberts, Johnson and Wright, or pass. See the 2017 recruits.

[TX Flyer]

Originally Posted by jack72 What are you related to him.? Every player on that team gets evaluated here. Or can we only mention kids who are over 18? Some more tobacco for you. Trey is not even getting minutes here and there to give him experience. He has played 32 minutes in 5 games. With what is coming in next year, the future looks like more of the same. With CC hurt and DD struggling, this was the time to give him a few minutes in the first half. Maybe next game. I hope he, especially, and you prove me wrong, but he appears good enough to make the roster, but not to redshirt or play. My point was we do not need another local guy, just because he is local. We need to get the very best players from Ohio, like Roberts, Johnson and Wright, or pass. See the 2017 recruits.

If we are relying on freshman to give up a ton of minutes and stats the. We either have a 5 star recruit, our team sucks, or it's like the year we had 7 players. I guess your scouting ability is better than the coaching staff though.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer If we are relying on freshman to give up a ton of minutes and stats the. We either have a 5 star recruit, our team sucks, or it's like the year we had 7 players. I guess your scouting ability is better than the coaching staff though.

Nice insult, but last year we played four freshmen (average recruits) quite a bit, and had eleven players plus Wehrli. Who is relying on Landers to give us a ton of minutes and stats? I question why he hardly plays except against the two cakewalks.

[runnerup]

I've wondered too.

[RamodWaleskowski]

Originally Posted by jack72 What are you related to him.? Every player on that team gets evaluated here. Or can we only mention kids who are over 18? Some more tobacco for you. Trey is not even getting minutes here and there to give him experience. He has played 32 minutes in 5 games. With what is coming in next year, the future looks like more of the same. With CC hurt and DD struggling, this was the time to give him a few minutes in the first half. Maybe next game. I hope he, especially, and you prove me wrong, but he appears good enough to make the roster, but not to redshirt or play. My point was we do not need another local guy, just because he is local. We need to get the very best players from Ohio, like Roberts, Johnson and Wright, or pass. See the 2017 recruits.

So the only reason Archie recruited him was because he was a "local guy?

I saw the kid a ton in high school against top competition. If he was in a position to take on a ton of minutes and was being relied on to produce than I have no doubt that he would. He is not being asked to do that. He has a ton of upperclassmen playing ahead of him and it is the perfect situation for him to watch and learn. Anybody that was not completely ignorant could see that.

Not related to him and definitely don't have any problem with player criticism. I do have a problem with you acting like he shouldn't even be there and won't amount to anything. Your original post and your response completely contradict each other. I'll leave it at that.

[flyerfan4life]

If Landers was going to play this little, why not red shirt him?

[UDDoug]

Unlike football, red shirting is very rare in basketball. Usually big guys who need strength or to get in shape.

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by jack72 We want a local kid who cannot play much for a team that is not on par with us? We already have that role taken by Landers.

This is ridiculous Jack.

Michigan State is not on par with Dayton? What a crock.

And under this logic, we should have passed on Seibert.

[flyerfan4life]

I understand that a red shirt is rare....but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be an option. He wouldve been an ideal candidate. Hasnt played a meaningful minute yet other than the last 12 seconds of the first half vs. St Bona.

	St Bonaventure SAINT BONAVENTURE Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf.

[CE80]

Other than 1 year and that was by necessity, we are used to a deep rotation. When Archie came to UD, I think he talked about a smaller, maybe 8 man rotation. Not everyone is going to play significant (define as you wish) minutes. He has to recruit guys that are comfortable with a roll like that for a year (or 2?).
Posted via Mobile Device

[flyerfan4life]

It would be different if he was even getting 3--5 minutes a game. Waste of a year of eligibility.

[UDDoug]

Using a redshirt limits further recruiting classes. You use them in basketball when there is very large upside in the fifth year, not because you won't see playing time in first. The only player I would have redshirted freshman year was Sean Finn. And he did not want to redshirt.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Gazoo]

Why not redshirt him: Because whether he plays or not he goes through live game prep (mental and physical) 30 times and next year when he is doing game prep for the first 15 games it won't be new to him.

Why also to not redshirt him: see Cooke, Cunningham, Steve, the entire 2014-2015 season.

If he's not good enough to get any minutes as a freshman, then when he's a 5th year guy he's just going to be holding back some sophomore that's ready to blossom. We'll always need glue guys and 15 minute per game guys but eventually he'll top out IF IT'S THE CASE that he's not good enough.

Or maybe he's one of the huge number of freshman who get homesick, struggle to adjust, struggle with girlfriends, etc. He's a human being after all not a robot.

[flyerfan4life]

Not saying everyone would be a candidate for this option...., but I feel like Trey could be because he was brought in knowing that his offensive game would have to develop. He is a phenomenal athlete who needs to hone his basketball skills. You'd think that would be the ideal candidate. I guess it kind of tells me that the coaching staff doesn't think he can develop in to a good player. If he turns in to a good player as an upperclassmen, it sure would be nice to have him have a 5th year. I understand both of your points though. Makes sense to me.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life If Landers was going to play this little, why not red shirt him?

The season is only half over. We may need him yet considering how often our players get hurt. He's getting a good dose of competition in practice which may yet provide some valuable insurance.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer The season is only half over. We may need him yet considering how often our players get hurt. He's getting a good dose of competition in practice which may yet provide some valuable insurance.

He could still practice with the team during his red-shirt year.

[DallasFlyer]

Are there cases where redshirting as a freshman in worth it? Sure. Sean Finn was a great example Doug gave. But to make that decision without it being necessitated by injury or NCAA mandate is taking a risk that is probably too great for most. Not speaking to Landers specifically, but in general taking a redshirt as a freshman for developmental reasons has become very rare for the following reasons:

(1) The rise in popularity of prep schools.
(2) Coaches fear the 5th year "free" transfer rule.
(3) Five years is too great of an initial investment.
(4) Taking the redshirt severely limits transfer options for a player.
(5) It's a good idea to preserve eligibility in case of medical necessity.

[DallasFlyer]

(1) The rise in popularity of prep schools.
These days a kid who might need a bit more seasoning, can go and develop a year post-grad at a prep school. Rather than sit out a year, players can develop their game by actually playing in high level competition while getting into better strength and conditioning programs then are typically offered at the high school level. Programs will even recruit kids who they think another year of development, but can encourage that player to go develop at prep school so as to not tie up a scholarship while buying themselves more evaluation time. Crosby and Naziah Carter were guys that a lot of bigger programs wanted to see prep, before Dayton got them committed.

[DallasFlyer]

(2) Coaches fear the 5th year "free" transfer rule.
I really think this was a game changer. If you sit a guy because he needs to develop, and then low and behold he capitalizes on the talent and becomes the stud you thought he might be able to become, he could just decide to go play for a "bigger" or "more prestigious" program.

[DallasFlyer]

(3) Five years is too great of an initial investment.
If #2 is the worst case scenario, it's almost as bad if the opposite happens and he doesn't develop at all. Then a coach has a wasted scholarship investment. Gazoo and Doug hit on that one in their previous responses.

[DallasFlyer]

(4) Taking the redshirt severely limits transfer options for a player.
Why should a kid give up the ability to transfer with 2 or 3 years of eligibility remaining? If things don't work out the way you'd hoped, you can always transfer at any point unless you already used your redshirt in which case if you want to play 4 years, then the only way to get out of there is to stick it out until you can graduate, then go the 5th year transfer route.

[DallasFlyer]

(5) It's a good idea to preserve eligibility in case of medical necessity.
If you burn your redshirt without ever playing, then you risk losing a year or being in college for 6 years if the NCAA will even allow it.

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life I guess it kind of tells me that the coaching staff doesn't think he can develop in to a good player.

I don't think it says that at all. They may see him being a solid contributor in his junior and senior years. Whether that be as filling a role, coming off the bench, whatever it may be. It's not uncommon for many guys to assume greater roles as they progress to later classes, including those who did not get a lot of time as a freshman.

Trey has a lot of upper classmen in front of him, limiting his opportunities. He will get this year to see what he has to work on and improve - which I surmise is refine his offensive game and really step up ability to defend in college.

I don't think failure to redshirt means coaches see you as a perennial notch above walkon. The 5th year upside has to be gigantic.

And even then, the player may not want to redshirt. See Sean Finn on both counts. I think that's the upside required to redshirt, and the player has to want to do so. And the 5th year transfer rule adds great risk to that. Given Sean was in Memphis at the Elite 8 and I've seen him on a few occasions around the program, I think he would have returned for a 5th year if the rule had been in effect. But it's something to consider.

By the way, I've heard him mention once that he wish he could revisit his freshman year decision. And I've heard him say he never regretted it.

[RamodWaleskowski]

So most have given up on Landers already? Rediculous, X Williams and Mikesell are prime examples of how much these guys can develop in one year. Through the first couple games this season X was a train wreck and now most are calling for him to start in Mikesell place.

The perimeter shooting and ability to block shots that X has given us was not there last year. So what happened? I'm gonna say his confidence has grown because he knows what he is doing and understands his role. Apparently the same thing can't happen for Landers.

Lord knows Devin Oliver was a finished product the minute he stepped on campus. Give me a break, does anyone really realize how hard it is to get minutes at UD? Archie's defense is extremely tough to pick up and understand. Landers isn't playing because he is still learning the system and Archie doesn't like to play anyone that cant play without fouling.

Give Landers time, he will have a big impact at UD before it is all said and done.

[RamodWaleskowski]

Can we rename the thread "Trey Landers".

Kyle Ahrens would not be able to help UD. He hasn't been the same player ever since he blew his knee out in high school.

[shocka43]

Unreal...

You ask players to redshirt that aren't ready to play...or have hardship/medical waivers...

Landers is plenty ready...he just isn't doing what he needs to do in the eyes of the coaches, and out of sight of the public, to earn himself playing time.

You don't redshirt a kid that you very well may need before the season is over. UD has plenty of people that are playing his position better than he is...that's why he isn't on the floor. He isn't a 5, he isn't a 1, and he isn't a 2. He will be on the floor as a 3/4 and right now, that position is covered pretty well by guys that are getting it done.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by RamodWaleskowski So most have given up on Landers already? Rediculous, X Williams and Mikesell are prime examples of how much these guys can develop in one year. Through the first couple games this season X was a train wreck and now most are calling for him to start in Mikesell place. The perimeter shooting and ability to block shots that X has given us was not there last year. So what happened? I'm gonna say his confidence has grown because he knows what he is doing and understands his role. Apparently the same thing can't happen for Landers. Lord knows Devin Oliver was a finished product the minute he stepped on campus. Give me a break, does anyone really realize how hard it is to get minutes at UD? Archie's defense is extremely tough to pick up and understand. Landers isn't playing because he is still learning the system and Archie doesn't like to play anyone that cant play without fouling. Give Landers time, he will have a big impact at UD before it is all said and done.

Take the word "most" and replace it with "some" and you'd be 100 percent spot on. Trey Landers imo is going to be a big time contributor to this program and that will probably start to present itself at the end of this season and more so the start of next season. Heck, he's passed the eye test to me the little I've seen him. AM has his reasons for keeping him on the bench I'm sure, but one of them is not because he's given up on him.

[Figgie123]

Since the 2000-01 season, I have 47 players that have played in at least 1 game through the 15th game of their freshman year, this includes (some) walk-ons.

Of those 47 players, there are only 5 players that have played less total minutes through 15 games than Trey Landers. I've included the 5 below, and the next 5.

• Schwieterman - 1 minute
• Westerfeld - 1 minute
• Marques Bennett - 4 minutes
• Ralph Hill - 11 minutes
• Matt Kavanaugh - 21 minutes
• Trey Landers - 32 minutes
• Devin Searcy - 42 minutes
• Sean Finn - 62 minutes
• Stephen Thomas - 70 minutes
• Devon Scott - 79 minutes
• Logan White - 82 minutes

But, as shocka said, it may very well be that Trey isn't doing what is necessary in practice to get his shot in games.

Figgie

[Alberto Strasse]

are given at this level. Everything is earned in practice under the watchful eyes of the coaching staff. In Archie We Trust!

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse are given at this level. Everything is earned in practice under the watchful eyes of the coaching staff. In Archie We Trust!

Which goes back to DD....

They are getting their minutes on the floor for what they do defensively...Sam is the only outlier here.

Rarely is anyone pulled from the game for offensive woes....it is defense. This makes it clear to me what Archie focuses on. Defense first.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Unreal... You ask players to redshirt that aren't ready to play...or have hardship/medical waivers... Landers is plenty ready...he just isn't doing what he needs to do in the eyes of the coaches, and out of sight of the public, to earn himself playing time. You don't redshirt a kid that you very well may need before the season is over. UD has plenty of people that are playing his position better than he is...that's why he isn't on the floor. He isn't a 5, he isn't a 1, and he isn't a 2. He will be on the floor as a 3/4 and right now, that position is covered pretty well by guys that are getting it done.

"You don't redshirt a kid that you very well may need before the season is over" If you end up truly needing him before the season is over...then you can use him at that point and burn the redshirt. From what you're saying....he isn't ready to play yet, so why not red-shirt him and use up years of his eligibility when he is ready to play?

[Smitty10]

Let's also remember this is only the 2nd time since AM took over that only one Freshman was on scholarship. This means a lot. This means you have a full roster of experience coming into the season and the Freshman is going to be at a disadvantage. The only other time was DD and he brought a unique skill over others and that was 3 point shooting plus very early we were down to only 7 players.

The 5 freshman got more playing time last season because they represented almost half the team, there's just no way you could sit some of them and let them develop the way AM might want to do in this case.

Also, the Flyers are going to be a completely different team next season that will no longer have the same skills that Scooch, KD, KP and CC bring. Maybe he's grooming TL to fit the new style of offense and defense that we will be going to next year. We're going to have a much larger lineup next season.

[RamodWaleskowski]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 Since the 2000-01 season, I have 47 players that have played in at least 1 game through the 15th game of their freshman year, this includes (some) walk-ons. Of those 47 players, there are only 5 players that have played less total minutes through 15 games than Trey Landers. I've included the 5 below, and the next 5. Schwieterman - 1 minute Westerfeld - 1 minute Marques Bennett - 4 minutes Ralph Hill - 11 minutes Matt Kavanaugh - 21 minutes Trey Landers - 32 minutes Devin Searcy - 42 minutes Sean Finn - 62 minutes Stephen Thomas - 70 minutes Devon Scott - 79 minutes Logan White - 82 minutes But, as shocka said, it may very well be that Trey isn't doing what is necessary in practice to get his shot in games. Figgie

While the list is fun to look at it I don't think it's a great source of info for the topic. The make up of a team is different every season and the style of play under different coaches has an impact on minutes. Some freshman are forced into action, others are not. Those things are not taken into consideration on this list.

Had Brian Gregory stayed Matt Kavanaugh may not of ever played haha.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by RamodWaleskowski While the list is fun to look at it I don't think it's a great source of info for the topic. The make up of a team is different every season and the style of play under different coaches has an impact on minutes. Some freshman are forced into action, others are not. Those things are not taken into consideration on this list. Had Brian Gregory stayed Matt Kavanaugh may not of ever played haha.

To me, it doesn't really matter what the reason is for the lack of minutes. If he isn't going to ever play meaningful minutes in his freshman year, and you think he will grow in to be being a good basketball player, why not give yourself the option of having him in a useful capacity for 4 years instead of only 3? Now, it could be for class balance since next year's class already has 5 guys and will likely end up with 6. Also, Trey may not be open to the idea as some have pointed out.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life "You don't redshirt a kid that you very well may need before the season is over" If you end up truly needing him before the season is over...then you can use him at that point and burn the redshirt. From what you're saying....he isn't ready to play yet, so why not red-shirt him and use up years of his eligibility when he is ready to play?

No, if you need him, then it's going to be a crucial situation and you don't just throw him in the game for the first time against a VCU or RI. If you need him, you want him to be ready. You also want to be certain of his strengths and weaknesses within real game. He needs some game experience.

[flyerfan4life]

Fair enough...but that isn't happening.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life Fair enough...but that isn't happening.

What isn't happening?

[RamodWaleskowski]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life To me, it doesn't really matter what the reason is for the lack of minutes. If he isn't going to ever play meaningful minutes in his freshman year, and you think he will grow in to be being a good basketball player, why not give yourself the option of having him in a useful capacity for 4 years instead of only 3? Now, it could be for class balance since next year's class already has 5 guys and will likely end up with 6. Also, Trey may not be open to the idea as some have pointed out.

I understand your point. I was never against the notion of saving a year of eligibility if he was not going to play impactful minutes. I was against people acting like he doesn't belong.

The little bit that I do know about Trey tells me that he will do whatever Archie thinks is best for the team. The kid is 100% a team player and always has been. He will work hard and earn his keep, won't ever he any whining out of that kid.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life To me, it doesn't really matter what the reason is for the lack of minutes. If he isn't going to ever play meaningful minutes in his freshman year, and you think he will grow in to be being a good basketball player, why not give yourself the option of having him in a useful capacity for 4 years instead of only 3? Now, it could be for class balance since next year's class already has 5 guys and will likely end up with 6. Also, Trey may not be open to the idea as some have pointed out.

How about AM can't always look at a player and predict his immediate skill growth. Maybe TL hasn't picked things up quite as fast as AM expected or AM just didn't quite know what to expect. If you tell me that it's AM's job to know these things, I present to you one of Bobby Knights greatest moments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50LsvwmgJ7I

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 What isn't happening?

He isn't getting game time like you're recommending.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life He isn't getting game time like you're recommending.

Archie has no way of knowing that when the season starts. The decision to redshirt needs to be decided early, you can't wing it. Again, if you missed it, Bobby Knight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50LsvwmgJ7I

[flyerfan4life]

Again...I'm not saying that he should be "winging it". I'm saying that as soon as he realized that he was going to only play 12 seconds of meaningful basketball in 15 games, he should've then considered the red-shirt.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life Again...I'm not saying that he should be "winging it". I'm saying that as soon as he realized that he was going to only play 12 seconds of meaningful basketball in 15 games, he should've then considered the red-shirt.

When was he supposed to know that? Bobby Knight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50LsvwmgJ7I

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 When was he supposed to know that? Bobby Knight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50LsvwmgJ7I

When he noticed in practice that he wasn't on the same level as the other players at his position. Again, you don't have to announce the red-shirt and stick to it. You just don't play him until he's ready to contribute in games of meaning. If that happens, put him out there. If it doesn't happen, which it clearly hasn't yet, don't put him out there ever and red-shirt him. Cool video though.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life When he noticed in practice that he wasn't on the same level as the other players at his position. Again, you don't have to announce the red-shirt and stick to it. You just don't play him until he's ready to contribute in games of meaning. If that happens, put him out there. If it doesn't happen, which it clearly hasn't yet, don't put him out there ever and red-shirt him. Cool video though.

Maybe he was exactly where AM expected him to be early in the season and he did what he always does and gave him playing time in blowouts. Then he didn't progress as much. That's my point with the Bobby Knight video, plus I think it's very entertaining.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

If this was still the 1980's when you could have 15 scholarship players instead of 13 like today, red shirting might be a better option. But this is 2017 where we have considerably more transfers, eligibility issues, and of course injuries. Red shirting a prospect who is eligible and not injured is rarely done by any program these days as their just is not enough room on many rosters to have an extra healthy eligible player not able to play if need be.

Minutes in the early season games get you prepared for when your name is called in a bigger game later in the season, maybe due to injury, foul problems (we have had very few this year- yea, I just jinxed us), or other disciplinary reasons.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life "You don't redshirt a kid that you very well may need before the season is over" If you end up truly needing him before the season is over...then you can use him at that point and burn the redshirt. From what you're saying....he isn't ready to play yet, so why not red-shirt him and use up years of his eligibility when he is ready to play?

Let's play that out. It's completely unfair to a scholarship player to simply not play him, not even in garbage time, without explanation. So you've got to give him an explanation: we're planning to redshirt you. SURPRISE! Hope that doesn't **** you off since we never discussed it before while recruiting you. Now, he goes into every practice and game thinking he's not playing a minute this year (and maybe thinking about transferring). His mindset is at best "let's make the most of this year by working on my body and my game every day while on the scout team" but be totally mentally unprepared for game situations. More likely he's experiencing "it's hard to get my energy level up every day just to spend a whole year on the scout team". And then 2 injuries later he's called into the game at the 12:00 mark of the first half against a league opponent and asked to play 20 minutes per game at a high level. And everyone says "now we know why Trey was redshirted, he's clearly not ready for this level of play." What snowball of flustercluck that would be.

You have obviously not through this through. Much like the "just bench that player for a few games" crowd, you must understand these are human beings who deserve to be treated fairly. Set clear expectations, adjust gradually, over-communicate, never put someone in a position to fail.

[rollo]

Has Wayne HS ever produced a wimp? Or an underachiever? I can't think of one.

Landers will be neither.

[flyerfan4life]

[QUOTE=Gazoo;478713]Let's play that out. It's completely unfair to a scholarship player to simply not play him, not even in garbage time, without explanation. So you've got to give him an explanation: we're planning to redshirt you. SURPRISE! Hope that doesn't **** you off since we never discussed it before while recruiting you. Now, he goes into every practice and game thinking he's not playing a minute this year (and maybe thinking about transferring). His mindset is at best "let's make the most of this year by working on my body and my game every day while on the scout team" but be totally mentally unprepared for game situations. More likely he's experiencing "it's hard to get my energy level up every day just to spend a whole year on the scout team". And then 2 injuries later he's called into the game at the 12:00 mark of the first half against a league opponent and asked to play 20 minutes per game at a high level. And everyone says "now we know why Trey was redshirted, he's clearly not ready for this level of play." What snowball of flustercluck that would be.

If you asked Trey if he'd rather have four years of eligibility with the potential to play meaningful minutes, or three, I'm confident he'd choose four. Also, if when he was told they planned to red-shirt him, he didn't like it, he could've always just declined the option. The red-shirt would be with HIS best interest in mind. If Archie says, "Hey, Trey, you're not going to play any meaningful minutes this year. We'd like to consider red-shirting you because we think you can have a major impact here at Dayton over the next 4 years. The numbers just don't add up for this year due to the 4 seniors being in the mix." I don't see anything at all wrong with that, and if you know anything about the Landers' family, they want to PLAY and COMPETE. I think he would've been open to the idea personally. I've definitely thought it through. If he turns in to a good player we'll all be wishing he had another year as a 23 year old senior.

[Smitty10]

[QUOTE=flyerfan4life;478716]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Let's play that out. It's completely unfair to a scholarship player to simply not play him, not even in garbage time, without explanation. So you've got to give him an explanation: we're planning to redshirt you. SURPRISE! Hope that doesn't **** you off since we never discussed it before while recruiting you. Now, he goes into every practice and game thinking he's not playing a minute this year (and maybe thinking about transferring). His mindset is at best "let's make the most of this year by working on my body and my game every day while on the scout team" but be totally mentally unprepared for game situations. More likely he's experiencing "it's hard to get my energy level up every day just to spend a whole year on the scout team". And then 2 injuries later he's called into the game at the 12:00 mark of the first half against a league opponent and asked to play 20 minutes per game at a high level. And everyone says "now we know why Trey was redshirted, he's clearly not ready for this level of play." What snowball of flustercluck that would be. If you asked Trey if he'd rather have four years of eligibility with the potential to play meaningful minutes, or three, I'm confident he'd choose four. Also, if when he was told they planned to red-shirt him, he didn't like it, he could've always just declined the option. The red-shirt would be with HIS best interest in mind. If Archie says, "Hey, Trey, you're not going to play any meaningful minutes this year. We'd like to consider red-shirting you because we think you can have a major impact here at Dayton over the next 4 years. The numbers just don't add up for this year due to the 4 seniors being in the mix." I don't see anything at all wrong with that, and if you know anything about the Landers' family, they want to PLAY and COMPETE. I think he would've been open to the idea personally. I've definitely thought it through. If he turns in to a good player we'll all be wishing he had another year as a 23 year old senior.

There are no surprises this year based on what Trey knew when he accepted the scholarship. He knew we had 4 senior starters returning plus Josh plus junior DD plus 4 (actually at the time 5) returning sophomores. He probably knew that his minutes were going to be small but valuable to his sophomore season when all kind of opportunities open up. If Trey wanted balanced playing time for 4 seasons he could've brought it up to AM. And here's the thing, you and I don't know if he did or not or whether AM brought it up to him or not. You're assuming that TL is getting the shaft this season and don't even know if TL feels that way. He just might appear in a game or more this season and contribute some very, very important minutes that are key to landing us in the big dance.

But to at this point, decide that not redshirting him was a big mistake is not only assuming too much out of the unknown, but very premature.

One other thing to remember, KP didn't get nearly the minutes in any game during the season that he got when we played Stanford in the regional semifinal of the NCAA. What if Trey is called upon for 10 minutes in the same situation, I have a feeling he wouldn't trade that moment for an extra season of playing time.

[flyerfan4life]

A lot of bad things would have to happen for Trey to play 10 minutes in an NCAA tourney game this season. Maybe I'm just looking at the bottom line: I'd rather have 4 years of Trey Landers than 3.

[SHQCKEY]

Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows Kyle Ahrens had his chance to be a Flyer. He passed. The Flyers should do likewise now.

Didn't Jordan Sibert choose OSU over UD the first time around?

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life A lot of bad things would have to happen for Trey to play 10 minutes in an NCAA tourney game this season. Maybe I'm just looking at the bottom line: I'd rather have 4 years of Trey Landers than 3.

That's BS. It could be that Trey develops to a point he's an extremely valuable asset by then. This isn't some unique situation in college basketball, freshman sit a lot and then come back for very productive 3 seasons. And I know it was mentioned once, but we already have boatload of first year players coming in next season, the balance of classes is somewhat important. If Trey develops like most AM recruits, he might get rewarded by being the sole team leader of a very successful team his senior season, that's the payback. Looking 4 years down the road into a player and team's success is a waste of time. I mean, what if Trey gets injured prior to the start of his Junior season? We're now talking about bring him back for a year 6?

[flyerfan4life]

If, by some magical occurrence, he develops enough to go from 8 minutes in a blowout over VMI to 10 minutes in an NCAA tourney game, then guess what....DON'T REDSHIRT HIM!

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life If, by some magical occurrence, he develops enough to go from 8 minutes in a blowout over VMI to 10 minutes in an NCAA tourney game, then guess what....DON'T REDSHIRT HIM!

Look at Gazoo's post in response to reshirting him conditionally, it makes a lot of sense(his post, not redshirting). And until you have a legitimate quote from Trey Landers or AM for that matter stating they wished he had reshirted, you're speaking only from events pulled out of thin air in your own mind.

I don't understand where you don't get that a player's development doesn't only present itself in practice, it presents itself on his time on the floor also. So how can he "magically" develop from 8 minutes in a blowout to 10 minutes in an NCAA tourney game without ever stepping on the floor during a game? Should Archie have been able to pull out a crystal glass and seen this?

[Medford]

Next season, UD will have 5 1st year eligible players (and perhaps a 6th depending on the last scholarship)

Next season, UD will have Cunningham, Kostas, one of the Jordans (sorry I forget which is the big and which is the wing), Mikesell, Xman, DDavis and Carter all vying for playing time at the 2-4 spot, plus perhaps one additional recruit depending on the last scholarship.

If there are no transfers out that is a lot of bodies already occupying both the set containing 1st year eligible players and the set containing candidates for the 2-4 spots on the roster. While no one, neither Archie, nor Trey nor any of us, know what the future development of Trey holds, it may be as simple as Archie wanting to balance out his classes and roster spots w/n those classes more than they currently are.

Trey is a bulldog and a fighter, he's going to improve over his time at UD and under Archie. Trust the process, trust Archie; redshirting is rare in college basketball, and frankly its fairly easy to find a guy that can play out on the wing compared to a guy with size that can bang down low. Redshirting Landers this season means 1 less scholarship available down the road that might be used on a player equal to or better than Trey's talents.

I've always envisioned Trey as a Kyle Davis type competitor since I first saw him play; he still has that potential, I'm not all that worried about his playing time.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Look at Gazoo's post in response to reshirting him conditionally, it makes a lot of sense(his post, not redshirting). And until you have a legitimate quote from Trey Landers or AM for that matter stating they wished he had reshirted, you're speaking only from events pulled out of thin air in your own mind. I don't understand where you don't get that a player's development doesn't only present itself in practice, it presents itself on his time on the floor also. So how can he "magically" develop from 8 minutes in a blowout to 10 minutes in an NCAA tourney game without ever stepping on the floor during a game? Should Archie have been able to pull out a crystal glass and seen this?

You're right...I don't have any direct quotes about them considering not red-shirting him. Just like you don't have any direct quotes about why they didn't red-shirt him. I'm not pulling "events" out of my own mind. Just speculating about what I feel could've been a good option for Landers' situation. He has raw basketball skills but is an exceptional athlete on a team with 4 seniors. I agree that time on the floor is imperative in a player's development. Yet another reason why this is a waste of a season for him. He's not getting that.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life You're right...I don't have any direct quotes about them considering not red-shirting him. Just like you don't have any direct quotes about why they didn't red-shirt him. I'm not pulling "events" out of my own mind. Just speculating about what I feel could've been a good option for Landers' situation. He has raw basketball skills but is an exceptional athlete on a team with 4 seniors. I agree that time on the floor is imperative in a player's development. Yet another reason why this is a waste of a season for him. He's not getting that.

...so far. What's better for the team this season takes precedent over trying to figure out what's best for the team and player in 2020-2021. AM sees that any long term injury to a Charles Cooke and/or Darrell Davis would require a lot of playing time out of TL to keep our chances of success up. Just because it didn't or doesn't materialize that way doesn't mean he made a bad decision keeping the extra body eligible and please don't go back to that conditional BS, it's just not done that way in college basketball. He has gotten some playing time and he will get more which I'm sure makes AM more comfortable to have him as an emergency plan than if he was sitting there with zero minutes. Somewhere on the depth chart, he's the Next Man Up.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 ...so far. What's better for the team this season takes precedent over trying to figure out what's best for the team and player in 2020-2021. AM sees that any long term injury to a Charles Cooke and/or Darrell Davis would require a lot of playing time out of TL to keep our chances of success up. Just because it didn't or doesn't materialize that way doesn't mean he made a bad decision keeping the extra body eligible and please don't go back to that conditional BS, it's just not done that way in college basketball. He has gotten some playing time and he will get more which I'm sure makes AM more comfortable to have him as an emergency plan than if he was sitting there with zero minutes. Somewhere on the depth chart, he's the Next Man Up.

He's not a 2...maybe not even a 3 for that matter. It seems like they're grooming him for an undersized 4 at this point. I think it would take several injuries for him to see the floor this season. He has played 32 minutes in 15 games. 8 of those in a blowout of VMI. He isn't getting on the floor anytime soon barring catastrophic circumstances.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life He's not a 2...maybe not even a 3 for that matter. It seems like they're grooming him for an undersized 4 at this point. I think it would take several injuries for him to see the floor this season. He has played 32 minutes in 15 games. 8 of those in a blowout of VMI. He isn't getting on the floor anytime soon barring catastrophic circumstances.

Please call and tell Archie and staff that he is not a 2 or 3, since someone on staff incorrectly listed Trey as a guard on the Daytonflyers.com website.

The only reason a few of his minutes were at the 4 earlier in the season, was due to our lack of depth and injuries or foul problems at that time.

[PalmBeachFlyer]

Times are good!!! Enjoy the ride. Serenity Now...

[RamodWaleskowski]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan Please call and tell Archie and staff that he is not a 2 or 3, since someone on staff incorrectly listed Trey as a guard on the Daytonflyers.com website. The only reason a few of his minutes were at the 4 earlier in the season, was due to our lack of depth and injuries or foul problems at that time.

Hate to say it but Trey will definitely be more of an undersized 4 man. That is where his skill set is best suited. Much like Kendall Pollard who is absolutely no taller than 6'4 or 6'5 on a good day. Trey is an explosive athlete around the rim and did most of his damage in high school off the block where he was just too much physically for most opponents.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan Please call and tell Archie and staff that he is not a 2 or 3, since someone on staff incorrectly listed Trey as a guard on the Daytonflyers.com website. The only reason a few of his minutes were at the 4 earlier in the season, was due to our lack of depth and injuries or foul problems at that time.

I've read a couple of different things that they've kind of changed gears on him and are considering him more in that fashion now than a guard. Thanks for your input though.

[PalmBeachFlyer]

I just looked it up...Duke has a 6'8 freshman who has played in 4 games...and he is not redshirting!!! Realize where UD now is...Consistent Top 30, 3 Straight NCAA, 5 wins in NCAA, Hot Coach. So TL is getting few minutes on a NCAA Team with 4 seniors...I imagine 100's of players of trade places...

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by PalmBeachFlyer I just looked it up...Duke has a 6'8 freshman who has played in 4 games...and he is not redshirting!!! Realize where UD now is...Consistent Top 30, 3 Straight NCAA, 5 wins in NCAA, Hot Coach. So TL is getting few minutes on a NCAA Team with 4 seniors...I imagine 100's of players of trade places...

Ok....and what does any of this have to do with my suggestion that he could've benefitted from a red-shirt year in this particular situation?

[jack72]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life He's not a 2...maybe not even a 3 for that matter. It seems like they're grooming him for an undersized 4 at this point. I think it would take several injuries for him to see the floor this season. He has played 32 minutes in 15 games. 8 of those in a blowout of VMI. He isn't getting on the floor anytime soon barring catastrophic circumstances.

Maybe that is Troy's problem. He is too small for a 4, so he needs to have guard skills, that is ball handling and/or outside shooting, and quickness to cover a guard. Archie may be waiting for him to try and develop guard skills. I would be curious as to where he works in practice.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by jack72 Maybe that is Troy's problem. He is too small for a 4, so he needs to have guard skills, that is ball handling and/or outside shooting, and quickness to cover a guard. Archie may be waiting for him to try and develop guard skills. I would be curious as to where he works in practice.

I think it's most definitely his problem. Again, that's why I suggested this for him in particular. I've been on this board for like 8 years and never suggested it before. It's a unique situation.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life Ok....and what does any of this have to do with my suggestion that he could've benefitted from a red-shirt year in this particular situation?

Do you know for a fact that AM knew that he wasn't going to get TL more than 32 minutes after 15 games? If you do know that, then proceed with your argument. If not, then it's as meaningful as me saying "Josh Cunningham would've benefited by not going up for that game sealing dunk against Alabama."

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life If you asked Trey if he'd rather have four years of eligibility with the potential to play meaningful minutes, or three, I'm confident he'd choose four. Also, if when he was told they planned to red-shirt him, he didn't like it, he could've always just declined the option. The red-shirt would be with HIS best interest in mind. If Archie says, "Hey, Trey, you're not going to play any meaningful minutes this year. We'd like to consider red-shirting you because we think you can have a major impact here at Dayton over the next 4 years. The numbers just don't add up for this year due to the 4 seniors being in the mix." I don't see anything at all wrong with that, and if you know anything about the Landers' family, they want to PLAY and COMPETE. I think he would've been open to the idea personally. I've definitely thought it through. If he turns in to a good player we'll all be wishing he had another year as a 23 year old senior.

If AM had that conversation in March, 2015, great. AM knew he's going to have 4 seniors, so if you recruit a guy with the intention of redshirting him then fine. But what you're suggesting is totally different. You're suggesting that either you:
a) get him on campus and then look at your depth chart for the first time, or
b) wait half the season before deciding whether or not you should put him into game situations; THEN have the conversation with him for the first time and see if he's OK with it (sit on the bench and pi$$ off the coach, or sit on the bench and don't pi$$ off the coach--that's some choice).

Neither of those make any sense.

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life A lot of bad things would have to happen for Trey to play 10 minutes in an NCAA tourney game this season. Maybe I'm just looking at the bottom line: I'd rather have 4 years of Trey Landers than 3.

You're having selective memory, as Smitty points out. The year that Pollard gave us such a boost against Stanford, he played in back-to-back games midseason where he played 1 minute per game (RI and LaSalle) and had more games where he played single digit minutes than he did games where he played double digit minutes. Now he's clearly played more than Trey, but, you're selectively remembering him having really big minutes his freshman year because he finished strong. Trey could absolutely develop into a player that gets 5-7 minutes yet this year. But only if he's mentally engaged and believing that's a possibility.

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life You're right...I don't have any direct quotes about them considering not red-shirting him. Just like you don't have any direct quotes about why they didn't red-shirt him.

All we have is evidence.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[UDDoug]

You are basing a decision on redshirt based on his not playing and saving four more years. That's fine, but it is not what the coaches consider in that decision. It is whether he would be a much better player in year 5 than in years 3 and 4. Hence he isn't red shirting.
Posted via Mobile Device

[BRob2Perryman3]

Jack, a fan message board is not a place for opinions. You may not complain about players or critique them. You can only talk about how great they are and blow rainbows and sunshine. Words hurt and people have feelings.

Get over it guys, he's allowed an opinion. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean he isn't allowed one.

And for god sakes STAY ON TOPIC....the thread police will be out in force

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 And for god sakes STAY ON TOPIC....the thread police will be out in force

I was thinking about this. Kyle Ahrens must be kind of proud to have a whole topic dedicated to him on UDPRIDE message board. He tells all his friends and family about it. Then it turns into a topic on Trey Landers. Must be embarrassing.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life Just speculating about what I feel could've been a good option for Landers' situation. He has raw basketball skills but is an exceptional athlete on a team with 4 seniors. I agree that time on the floor is imperative in a player's development. Yet another reason why this is a waste of a season for him. He's not getting that.

I think it is reasonable to speculate on the option of Lander's redshirting.

Raw skills to me can mean HS skills that were adequate, maybe even exceptional, have yet to catch up to D-1. But surely he is getting closer in practice, such that IF he is needed he is closer to being the kind of "ready" that Arch wants. Only Arch and staff know whether floor time is warranted, and to what degree. We don't have a JV to put him on. Or an NBADL.

You lost me on "yet another reason why this is a waste of a season for him". Only Arch and the player can come to that conclusion. That was a giant leap from reasonable redshirt speculation.

Arch is full up on situational development with the investment in DD. But obviously not ready to write off the potential of Trey to help the team yet this season.

One thing we all know is Arch is selling Freshman minutes to recruits, if they EARN them.
He is not giving up on Trey to earn them. However a small sample, the fact that Trey played 8 minutes and scored 4 points, snagged 3 rebounds, blocked a shot, and got an assist, and did not commit a foul, is progress from his previous floor gigs of no production, and a foul every 2 minutes.

One thing that flies in the face of speculating on redshirting is his 6'4" 220lb body. He is not lacking physical presence that requires a year of preparation to rectify.

Is redshirting an option? I say yes. Is his season a waste if he doesn't? No way.

Ps- The damage to the thread is irreparable. Change the title.

[Bucketnight]

I also wondered if there was consideration given to red-shirting him. I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that it was considered.

There are plenty of valid reasons that the consideration never led to it being done. Among them could be that Archie thinks he will never get beyond spot minutes barring catastrophe and the extra year would not benefit the team.

Hopefully, he is developing and continues to do so and this is just a rotational situation. It does not appear he will have an impact this year. He certainly wouldn't be the first freshman that didn't but later was able to do so. He wouldn't be the first freshman to never improve to the point of having a major impact if that is what occurs. He wouldn't be the first freshman that after re-evaluation realizes they might be better served playing at a lower level program. I don't have any idea yet. I'm not sure how anyone other than the coaching staff could at this point.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer I think it is reasonable to speculate on the option of Lander's redshirting. Raw skills to me can mean HS skills that were adequate, maybe even exceptional, have yet to catch up to D-1. But surely he is getting closer in practice, such that IF he is needed he is closer to being the kind of "ready" that Arch wants. Only Arch and staff know whether floor time is warranted, and to what degree. We don't have a JV to put him on. Or an NBADL. You lost me on "yet another reason why this is a waste of a season for him". Only Arch and the player can come to that conclusion. That was a giant leap from reasonable redshirt speculation. Arch is full up on situational development with the investment in DD. But obviously not ready to write off the potential of Trey to help the team yet this season. One thing we all know is Arch is selling Freshman minutes to recruits, if they EARN them. He is not giving up on Trey to earn them. However a small sample, the fact that Trey played 8 minutes and scored 4 points, snagged 3 rebounds, blocked a shot, and got an assist, and did not commit a foul, is progress from his previous floor gigs of no production, and a foul every 2 minutes. One thing that flies in the face of speculating on redshirting is his 6'4" 220lb body. He is not lacking physical presence that requires a year of preparation to rectify. Is redshirting an option? I say yes. Is his season a waste if he doesn't? No way. Ps- The damage to the thread is irreparable. Change the title.

When I said "waste of a season", I should have clarified that I meant a waste of a season of ELIGIBILITY. The practice time and time around his veteran teammates is VERY valuable.

[CE80]

I wish it was Wednesday already.

[C-time]

You redshirt a player when you can't recruit another player with similar attributes. There are multiple 6-4 215 lb players available for Dayton to recruit. Landers might eventually play some important minutes for Dayton but if for some reason he doesn't pan out or chooses to transfer I'm 99% sure that Archie can find another player to fill the role he originally thought Trey could fill for UD.

If Trey were a 7 footer it would be much more likely he would be redshirted. 7 footers are much more rare for UD and Archie could spend more time developing that player. A much quicker decision can be made on a 6'4" guy who is replaced much easier.

[sheg]

Players today get red-shirted for non medical reasons approximately never. You guys are wasting good neurons even thinking about it.

[Gazoo]

I think it's reasonable to speculate on Trey redshirting before he got here, but not after. You simply don't sell the guy freshman minutes during the recruiting process and then tell him he's going to have to sit for a year. And you can't know beforehand if he's going to adapt quickly to the college game (or desperately need him) until you've got him on campus in thick of things.

Once he's on campus practicing with the team this discussion becomes moot.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by sheg Players today get red-shirted for non medical reasons approximately never. You guys are wasting good neurons even thinking about it.

You're correct. Doesn't mean that it couldn't be an ideal scenario in certain cases though. Just sayin...it'll suck if Trey turns out to be a very good player his last couple of years and we could've had him as a 23 year old senior.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I think it's reasonable to speculate on Trey redshirting before he got here, but not after. You simply don't sell the guy freshman minutes during the recruiting process and then tell him he's going to have to sit for a year. And you can't know beforehand if he's going to adapt quickly to the college game (or desperately need him) until you've got him on campus in thick of things. Once he's on campus practicing with the team this discussion becomes moot.

If he sold him on freshman minutes, he's not doing a very good job of following through on that either.

[San Diego Flyer]

You left out the "must earn" part. The minutes are there to be chased.

[flyerfan4life]

Could it be that he was learning a new "guard" skill set initially and couldn't crack the lineup and now they're changing their plan for him? Hmmm....sounds like a unique situation to me. One that could've warranted a red-shirt.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life Could it be that he was learning a new "guard" skill set initially and couldn't crack the lineup and now they're changing their plan for him? Hmmm....sounds like a unique situation to me. One that could've warranted a red-shirt.

So you invent a set of circumstances to fit your predetermined outcome and then conclude that you're right. There are many areas of science and politics that are actively seeking your unique skill set as well.

[flyerfan4life]

Originally Posted by Gazoo So you invent a set of circumstances to fit your predetermined outcome and then conclude that you're right. There are many areas of science and politics that are actively seeking your unique skill set as well.

This circumstance isn't invented. That's what is happening.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by flyerfan4life This circumstance isn't invented. That's what is happening.

You're saying that after spending hours and hours watching game film, live HS games, offseason workouts, preseason workouts, and then preseason games AM just now suddenly reached the conclusion that TL should start developing some guard skills, and therefore should be redshirted?

For the 10th time: if AM thought he should redshirt then that's a discussion to have during the recruiting process. If it is realistic that what you're describing is actually happening, then AM should have said "you're not going to be ready when you get to UD and you should redshirt. How do you feel about that?"

If you have any evidence that AM is a great fool and never had that discussion or thought process, please provide. Otherwise, even granting that your scenario is real, TL must have said no. The point is moot.

[RamodWaleskowski]

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 Jack, a fan message board is not a place for opinions. You may not complain about players or critique them. You can only talk about how great they are and blow rainbows and sunshine. Words hurt and people have feelings. Get over it guys, he's allowed an opinion. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean he isn't allowed one. And for god sakes STAY ON TOPIC....the thread police will be out in force

Your post applies to everything you said as much as it does to the people that disagreed with him.

If we are a bunch of sissy complainers than what are you doing in your post?