UDPride Discussion Forums    
     

Go Back   UDPride Discussion Forums > STEVEN E. YUHAS MEMORIAL LOUNGE > Off-Topic Gibberish

» Log in
User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
» Advertisement
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:33 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Brexit

What the hell is the matter with the Brits? Brexit is tearing the Country apart. For what?

I've been keeping up with the Brexit drama....often reading an entire page of a paper describing in detail all the "ins and outs" of various options and possibilities for the Brits....without ever reading a sentence or paragraph explaining anything good about leaving the EU. It's all just how bad the various options are.

There is little doubt in my mind that a second referendum would have a different outcome. The Brits never should have been asked to vote on an issue of such great complexity as to be impossible for various outcomes to be understood. Parliament should have had the responsibility for the decision....and it's doubtful that even those guys/gals would understand the issues. Ugh!
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to UACFlyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
rollo (12-10-2018)
Advertisement
  #2  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:40 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
When you make a mistake...

When a mistake has been made....especially a really big mistake,...what does a rational person try to do? Correct the mistake. Right?

The Brits made a grave mistake when they voted to leave the EU....Brexit. Since then the Country has been tearing itself apart with no end in sight.

But there is a n obvious way to end all this...to correct the mistake. Another referendum. Now that the consequences of Brexit are clear, simply ask the voters again, "Should the UK leave the EU"?

The odds are overwhelming that given a second chance the Brits will vote to stay put. So, why not vote again? is there any reasonable excuse for not having a second referendum?

What's the matter with those people? They're acting like us.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:33 PM
N2663R N2663R is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 864
Thanks: 2
Thanked 567 Times in 295 Posts
N2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond repute
I've only followed this anecdotally, but I thought that the major reason that "Brexit" passed, was on the issue of border security and the fact that Brussels was imposing demands on GB that they must be open to "immigrants/refugees" from the mid east. They already have a problem in that regard and wanted to prevent it from destroying their culture. GB should have pushed back hard on that one issue and thus would not be in this position today. Does that sound right??
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:41 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BigOilPlex
Posts: 13,871
Thanks: 13,636
Thanked 12,752 Times in 5,657 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
I thought it also had to do with England (and Germany) basically picking up the tab for weak countries like Greece (and Italy??) who contribute squat but want their debts paid by others.
__________________
"Together we will make America great again. Thank you. God Bless you. And God Bless America." Donald Trump
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:49 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Grievances

Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I've only followed this anecdotally, but I thought that the major reason that "Brexit" passed, was on the issue of border security and the fact that Brussels was imposing demands on GB that they must be open to "immigrants/refugees" from the mid east. They already have a problem in that regard and wanted to prevent it from destroying their culture. GB should have pushed back hard on that one issue and thus would not be in this position today. Does that sound right??
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I thought it also had to do with England (and Germany) basically picking up the tab for weak countries like Greece (and Italy??) who contribute squat but want their debts paid by others.
Whatever the UK's grievances, they were infinitely better off before Brexit, living with their beefs and trying to work them out within the EU system. Instead they find themselves in a crisis self-described as the worst since WW II. That is really saying something. And there is no end in sight....just one bad option after another.

Sometimes a mistake has to be acknowledged and rectified. These days it's almost impossible to find an analysis explaining a positive aspect of the UK leaving the EU....just bad effects in varying degree.

It's way past time for the Brits to wake up. This mess goes far beyond the UK; World economic stability is affected.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:42 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 11,190
Thanks: 1,177
Thanked 12,718 Times in 3,695 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
Sure. Have a referendum. When you dont like the outcome just ignore it and continue having them until you get the result you want. Democracy is dead.

The only place Brexit is not popular is London. That's it. Everywhere else its overwhelming popular. London is basically trying to run the country like CA and NY opinions run America.

Whether Brexit is a good idea is irrelevant. Personally I think its fabulous but even if it's not, it's what the people wanted and voted for in a legal democratic way.

That Brexit might not pass today is also irrelevant. Some of the people that voted for Brexit - older people - have died. Does that mean younger voters should count as 1.5 votes each? Imagine congressional bills being nullified here in the US because we didnt like the outcomes and later on decided "well it was popular then but now not so much...I'll just ignore it as if it no longer applies. Yeah equal housing laws and other things were popular back in time, but we dont need that now. As landlord, I'll just pretend it no longer exists and the stuff doesn't apply to me."

Brexit passed because Britain wanted Brexit. No more no less. They were tired of allowing unelected bureaucrats in Brussels make policy matters for Brits. The other big crutch was immigration. The massive migrant problem and "no-go zones" are at a breaking point.

If Britain doesn't honor the referendum and voice of the people and has what is effectively another referendum, the country may collapse into an attempted coup. And rightly so considering rule of law and democracy would be dead.

There are infinite good reasons to leave the EU, UAC, but you are conveniently ignoring them. Remember when Brexit haters guaranteed economic collapse in the days, weeks, and months after the vote? It was all they could talk about. Hasn't happened. Many sectors are actually improving because of the foreshadowing of what Brexit will provide.

Nobody in the US would tolerate the United Nations voting and approving on USA matters that trumped our own elected officials and laws on things like border security, immigration, trade, fisheries, industry, trade with countries outside the UN, etc etc. Not for one second would we stand for it. Its representation without election by those being governed.

Brits just want their country back. They want to be Britain again, not someone or something else. Many other countries want out too based on public sentiment. If they have referendums they will also pass. The great EU experiment never worked because diversity fails whenever the culture and values itself are not shared. You cant ever square western Brit values with Sharia law no-go zones, Brussels ruling power, and free access to your social services by foreigners that never paid into the system. Greece, Italy..they are all imploding. Did you see the recent protests in Paris. They make Trump rallies look like Beto ORourke rallies. Germany may be next. It's why Merkel lost the support of the people and is on the outs. Theresa May? Gone.

Europe's failed experiment.
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Chris R For This Totally Excellent Post:
Bat'71 (02-12-2019), JimBo (02-12-2019)
  #7  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:33 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Not quite the point.

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Sure. Have a referendum. When you dont like the outcome just ignore it and continue having them until you get the result you want. Democracy is dead.

The only place Brexit is not popular is London. That's it. Everywhere else its overwhelming popular. London is basically trying to run the country like CA and NY opinions run America.

Whether Brexit is a good idea is irrelevant. Personally I think its fabulous but even if it's not, it's what the people wanted and voted for in a legal democratic way.

That Brexit might not pass today is also irrelevant. Some of the people that voted for Brexit - older people - have died. Does that mean younger voters should count as 1.5 votes each? Imagine congressional bills being nullified here in the US because we didnt like the outcomes and later on decided "well it was popular then but now not so much...I'll just ignore it as if it no longer applies. Yeah equal housing laws and other things were popular back in time, but we dont need that now. As landlord, I'll just pretend it no longer exists and the stuff doesn't apply to me."

Brexit passed because Britain wanted Brexit. No more no less. They were tired of allowing unelected bureaucrats in Brussels make policy matters for Brits. The other big crutch was immigration. The massive migrant problem and "no-go zones" are at a breaking point.

If Britain doesn't honor the referendum and voice of the people and has what is effectively another referendum, the country may collapse into an attempted coup. And rightly so considering rule of law and democracy would be dead.

There are infinite good reasons to leave the EU, UAC, but you are conveniently ignoring them. Remember when Brexit haters guaranteed economic collapse in the days, weeks, and months after the vote? It was all they could talk about. Hasn't happened. Many sectors are actually improving because of the foreshadowing of what Brexit will provide.

Nobody in the US would tolerate the United Nations voting and approving on USA matters that trumped our own elected officials and laws on things like border security, immigration, trade, fisheries, industry, trade with countries outside the UN, etc etc. Not for one second would we stand for it. Its representation without election by those being governed.

Brits just want their country back. They want to be Britain again, not someone or something else. Many other countries want out too based on public sentiment. If they have referendums they will also pass. The great EU experiment never worked because diversity fails whenever the culture and values itself are not shared. You cant ever square western Brit values with Sharia law no-go zones, Brussels ruling power, and free access to your social services by foreigners that never paid into the system. Greece, Italy..they are all imploding. Did you see the recent protests in Paris. They make Trump rallies look like Beto ORourke rallies. Germany may be next. It's why Merkel lost the support of the people and is on the outs. Theresa May? Gone.

Europe's failed experiment.
The primary argument concerning the Referendum re leaving the EU is this: The British people were asked to vote on a matter, "yes" or "no", having such complexity that the consequences of their vote could not possibly have been understood or foreseen. What has been happening since the vote is proof of that.

Not long ago George Will wrote a column concerning matters like this...not Brexit...but policy matters generally. He explained that in a Democracy people should not be voting on policies. Rather, people vote for their representatives who then vote for them on policy matters.

Britons just want their Country back? They just want to be Briton again? No benefit whatsoever to being a member of the EU, right? The Brits are learning otherwise as they attempt to muddle through what they describe as the greatest crisis since WW II.

If going it alone is such a great idea for the Brits why have they been struggling so mightily for two years in an attempt to figure out how to do it?

A coup? Nonsense! No one has suggested that the UK "not honor" the Referendum. What has been widely suggested is that, considering the two years of absolute chaos following the first Referendum, and in light of the great importance of the matter, the voters be asked again the very same question they were asked before. Brexit or not. If they vote again for Brexit...so be it; go for it. But for sure the Brits understand a lot more about the issues and consequences of Brexit than the populist BS available to them at the time of the first vote. Given another opportunity to vote they may change their minds....or not. It's still up to the voters.

As to the notion that the vote may be affected because many first voters have died...give me a break!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-12-2019, 06:31 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 11,190
Thanks: 1,177
Thanked 12,718 Times in 3,695 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
You just answered your own question UAC. Had the voters voted "No" to the referendum, they could not have possibly known the complexity and repercussions of staying in the EU long-term. So a new referendum would need to have been given to give the Brit citizens a chance to re-think their naivete' and better understand why the EU was and remains so disastrous to the Brit economy, social fabric, and culture. How could they have possibly known how atrocious the EU was? They never really thought about it in more cogent political, social, and economic terms on a global scale -- and even worse did not fully understand the same political, social, and economic freedom and prosperity that being sovereign again would provide. A referendum would have been needed to correct the ignorance of the "remain" vote. Yes?

As for people dying off, nobody outside London or over 45 are asking for a new referendum. Its all younger voters and mostly the politicians that want it. It was up to the voters. The voters answered. Its not the "remain" camp's fault younger voters dont vote enough. Tough titties.

The EU has been a complete and utter failure for Britain and its not even up for debate. Their economy has suffered immensely. Their recovery from the recession was slower than almost any other first world power. The unfettered immigration has hijacked the British culture to the point where you almost cant even recognize it anymore -- in LONDON of all places which is the irony. People are getting stabbed left and right. No-go zones the Brit Met police wont even go into, Sharia law, the NHS literally crumbling on its knees due to all the increased (mostly poor transient) low-skilled immigration, and people in Brussels Belgium making laws that affect Brits lives in which no Brit ever directly elected them to make such laws -- nevermind many of them are appointed and cant even be fired.

Their country is under siege and most Brits outside downtown London will tell you they are living America's future and its not pleasant.
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Chris R For This Totally Excellent Post:
Bat'71 (02-12-2019)
  #9  
Old 02-12-2019, 06:41 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Flawed logic

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
You just answered your own question UAC. Had the voters voted "No" to the referendum, they could not have possibly known the complexity and repercussions of staying in the EU long-term. So a new referendum would need to have been given to give the Brit citizens a chance to re-think their naivete' and better understand why the EU was and remains so disastrous to the Brit economy, social fabric, and culture. How could they have possibly known how atrocious the EU was? They never really thought about it in more cogent political, social, and economic terms on a global scale -- and even worse did not fully understand the same political, social, and economic freedom and prosperity that being sovereign again would provide. A referendum would have been needed to correct the ignorance of the "remain" vote. Yes?

As for people dying off, nobody outside London or over 45 are asking for a new referendum. Its all younger voters and mostly the politicians that want it. It was up to the voters. The voters answered. Its not the "remain" camp's fault younger voters dont vote enough. Tough titties.

The EU has been a complete and utter failure for Britain and its not even up for debate. Their economy has suffered immensely. Their recovery from the recession was slower than almost any other first world power. The unfettered immigration has hijacked the British culture to the point where you almost cant even recognize it anymore -- in LONDON of all places which is the irony. People are getting stabbed left and right. No-go zones the Brit Met police wont even go into, Sharia law, the NHS literally crumbling on its knees due to all the increased (mostly poor transient) low-skilled immigration, and people in Brussels Belgium making laws that affect Brits lives in which no Brit ever directly elected them to make such laws -- never mind many of them are appointed and cant even be fired.

Their country is under siege and most Brits outside downtown London will tell you they are living America's future and its not pleasant.
Compared to the last two years, prior to the Brexit vote the UK was positively tranquil. That being the case, a "no" vote would have continued the state of "tranquility" and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

And why/how, pray tell, are the out-of-town Brits living America's future?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-12-2019, 07:22 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Naples, Florida
Posts: 3,207
Thanks: 2,618
Thanked 2,242 Times in 1,125 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Chris, you've hit multiple nails squarely on the head. The Brits were fed up with the damage done by diktats from the (unelected) European elites. They wanted their country (and their democracy) back and are well on their way to getting it.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Bat'71 For This Totally Excellent Post:
JimBo (02-12-2019)
  #11  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:09 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 11,190
Thanks: 1,177
Thanked 12,718 Times in 3,695 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Compared to the last two years, prior to the Brexit vote the UK was positively tranquil. That being the case, a "no" vote would have continued the state of "tranquility" and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

And why/how, pray tell, are the out-of-town Brits living America's future?
Tranquil? What rock have you been living under UAC? The immigration population was completing taking over the entire country -- much of it Islamist extremism and Sharia law. Almost 40% of Muslims living in Britain identified as believing in Sharia Law, and almost 20% believed homosexuality should be dealt with the penalty of death.

The entire fisheries industry in Britain has been decimated by the European Parliament controlling British waters and telling them when and how they can fish off their own shores.

The economy was mired in the worst recovery of almost any western European nation at the time the Brexit vote was taken.

The NHS is bursting at the seams and completely unable to handle the massive influx of immigration and strain on its resources which have been paid for and provided by British citizens but now prostituted by immigrants from Eastern European EU countries that paid nothing into the system but reap the same benefits. Its hurting the natives with drastic consequences. Many cannot even get assigned a general doctor for months, nevermind see a doctor. Wait periods for a simple knee replacement are approaching 12-18 months.

Trade in Britain has been all but destroyed by the EU with ridiculous regulations on what can and cannot be traded, how it can be traded, what countries are allowed to negotiate for trade with the EU, what countries are off limits, what those trade tariffs and taxes are, which industries are included, which get special exclusions, on and on. The British have surrendered their entire sovereignty to people they never elected, who do not even live in Britain, to run their economic and social lives with little to no say in the matter. Britain cannot even control its own borders the way it sees fit because the EU mandates free and safe travel throughout the entire union. Its only a matter of good fortune that the British kept the pound sterling and never adopted the Euro or things would be even worse -- Britain has rebounded from the recession in the past two years FASTER than those in the EU using the Euro. Its still bad, but its better.

You act like the British are a bunch of idiots and dont know what they want. They voted because they want out. The realllly realllly do want out. You just have to get outside the London bubble where all the social democrats are to see how most of the average working class people have been decimated by forced cultural assimilation with people that do not share the British culture.

Im sorry but when you immigrate to Britain and then demand that the British Met police and other forces are told by immigrants "not to come into our neighborhood and police our streets or else"....its a real problem. Its a real problem when non-Muslims are specifically directed by law enforcement not to venture into Muslim neighborhoods because its too dangerous for them and they cannot guarantee their safety and wont even protect them if they do. Muslims and other cultures immigrating to the UK is not in an of itself a problem. But not assimilating with British culture -- which is to say western values -- is where the country is falling apart.

When your immigrants do not recognize women as having the right to drive a car, think homosexuals should be killed, or walk down the street with their entire bodies covered or fear beatings by your husbands -- we have a problem.

Yet you speak as if the Brits are some anomaly that simply made some referendum mistake that would never happen again or anywhere else. Huh? Have you not been following the protests in other EU countries? They are fracturing at the seams for the very same reason the UK is. They are tired of being forced to lose to their identity in the name of homogeneity. These are not small street corner protests either. We're talking half a million people taking to the streets in France, Italy, Greece, Germany and other countries. There is a reason May, Marcon, Merkel, and others are fighting for their political lives right now -- they are receiving the exact same blowback in their own countries that the British parliament is receiving in Britain. People are tired of being ruled by Brussels and want to be themselves again. They want to control their own borders how they see fit, make trade negotiations with whomever they wish, have an immigration policy of their own that reflects the will of their own people, and maybe most importantly -- are tired of being tied to a union of countries where the more prosperous and financially responsible countries are on the hook for helping prop up the least financially capable countries. There is absolutely no reason a mega-economy like Germany should be in the same socio-economic construct as Greece.

Its just so condescending to talk about these people like they are so stupid they dont know whats best for themselves, and they need people from across the pond who havent lived their misery to put them on the proper path. Britain won't be the last country to leave the EU and all those countries and leaders I mentioned are absolutely scared shytless that if they have a referendum or vote on EU membership and let the people decide -- the gig is up and countries will drop like flies.

The EU promised much and delivered very little. Economies are not better, borders are not more secure, culture is not more enriched, cohesion is not tighter. Its created nothing but resentment, disdain, and apoplexy on the part of those that have been affected most by it -- lower- and middle-classes that just want to have their countries back and be left alone. Were the EU doing so well, we would not be seeing 500,000 people on the streets in many EU cities every other weekend begging and pleading for change.

Britain had a vote. It should be honored. You cant erase what happened because you dont like the outcome. Who's to say Women's Suffrage was a smart decision? We should just ignore it and have a do-over.


The EU offers nothing that Britain or any other country cant earn on their own. They did for hundreds of years just fine. They can still trade with the world, be friends with the world, make allies as they see fit, control their borders, and most importantly create rules and regulations only from those elected officials directly elected by those affected by their politics.



The "from each according to ability to each according to need" creep is America's future if we're not careful. Europe is showing us where we are headed unless we pay attention to the results of forced cooperation instead of mutually agreed cooperation among parties in it for the same reasons. Whats to stop the USA, Canada, and Mexico from forming a NAU (North America Union) with a common currency and unfettered travel between? And the same trade deals with the rest of the world? Why should Canada get the same trade deal with Lichtenstein as the USA if the USA can send 100x the product Lichteinstein citizens want to buy?
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-13-2019, 11:10 PM
jack72's Avatar
jack72 jack72 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 14,148
Thanks: 11,993
Thanked 6,495 Times in 3,731 Posts
jack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks for the great explanation Chris. I knew some of these things, and others not. Puts it all in perspective. A revote would be a slap in the face those who voted to get out, and non-democratic message. The vote to get out was for a reason.
Posted via Mobile Device
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-14-2019, 09:41 AM
N2663R N2663R is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 864
Thanks: 2
Thanked 567 Times in 295 Posts
N2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
. . . The NHS is bursting at the seams and completely unable to handle the massive influx of immigration and strain on its resources which have been paid for and provided by British citizens but now prostituted by immigrants from Eastern European EU countries that paid nothing into the system but reap the same benefits. Its hurting the natives with drastic consequences. Many cannot even get assigned a general doctor for months, nevermind see a doctor. Wait periods for a simple knee replacement are approaching 12-18 months.

Trade in Britain has been all but destroyed by the EU with ridiculous regulations on what can and cannot be traded, how it can be traded, what countries are allowed to negotiate for trade with the EU, what countries are off limits, what those trade tariffs and taxes are, which industries are included, which get special exclusions, on and on. The British have surrendered their entire sovereignty to people they never elected, who do not even live in Britain, to run their economic and social lives with little to no say in the matter. Britain cannot even control its own borders the way it sees fit because the EU mandates free and safe travel throughout the entire union. Its only a matter of good fortune that the British kept the pound sterling and never adopted the Euro or things would be even worse -- Britain has rebounded from the recession in the past two years FASTER than those in the EU using the Euro. Its still bad, but its better.

You act like the British are a bunch of idiots and dont know what they want. They voted because they want out. The realllly realllly do want out. You just have to get outside the London bubble where all the social democrats are to see how most of the average working class people have been decimated by forced cultural assimilation with people that do not share the British culture.

Im sorry but when you immigrate to Britain and then demand that the British Met police and other forces are told by immigrants "not to come into our neighborhood and police our streets or else"....its a real problem. Its a real problem when non-Muslims are specifically directed by law enforcement not to venture into Muslim neighborhoods because its too dangerous for them and they cannot guarantee their safety and wont even protect them if they do. Muslims and other cultures immigrating to the UK is not in an of itself a problem. But not assimilating with British culture -- which is to say western values -- is where the country is falling apart.

When your immigrants do not recognize women as having the right to drive a car, think homosexuals should be killed, or walk down the street with their entire bodies covered or fear beatings by your husbands -- we have a problem. . . .

. . . Its just so condescending to talk about these people like they are so stupid they dont know whats best for themselves, and they need people from across the pond who havent lived their misery to put them on the proper path. Britain won't be the last country to leave the EU and all those countries and leaders I mentioned are absolutely scared shytless that if they have a referendum or vote on EU membership and let the people decide -- the gig is up and countries will drop like flies.

The EU promised much and delivered very little. Economies are not better, borders are not more secure, culture is not more enriched, cohesion is not tighter. Its created nothing but resentment, disdain, and apoplexy on the part of those that have been affected most by it -- lower- and middle-classes that just want to have their countries back and be left alone. Were the EU doing so well, we would not be seeing 500,000 people on the streets in many EU cities every other weekend begging and pleading for change.

Britain had a vote. It should be honored. You cant erase what happened because you dont like the outcome. Who's to say Women's Suffrage was a smart decision? We should just ignore it and have a do-over.

The EU offers nothing that Britain or any other country cant earn on their own. They did for hundreds of years just fine. They can still trade with the world, be friends with the world, make allies as they see fit, control their borders, and most importantly create rules and regulations only from those elected officials directly elected by those affected by their politics.

The "from each according to ability to each according to need" creep is America's future if we're not careful. Europe is showing us where we are headed unless we pay attention to the results of forced cooperation instead of mutually agreed cooperation among parties in it for the same reasons. Whats to stop the USA, Canada, and Mexico from forming a NAU (North America Union) with a common currency and unfettered travel between? And the same trade deals with the rest of the world? Why should Canada get the same trade deal with Lichtenstein as the USA if the USA can send 100x the product Lichteinstein citizens want to buy?
Wow, are you talking about Great Britain or the US? You are 100% correct!
The vote must be honored and the exit must take place. Once this has been completed you can then determine if this is want you want as a country, and if it is not, then you can vote again. And of course there is going to be chaos. You have intertwined your country with the rest of Europe in almost every facet imaginable. You don't unravel that overnight, without getting your hands dirty. England will ultimately regain their sovereignty, culture, and self determination and once completed, will never turn back.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to N2663R For This Totally Excellent Post:
JimBo (02-14-2019)
  #14  
Old 02-14-2019, 09:47 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BigOilPlex
Posts: 13,871
Thanks: 13,636
Thanked 12,752 Times in 5,657 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
England will ultimately regain their sovereignty, culture, and self determination and once completed, will never turn back.
They let the cancer in and it won't be easy to kill. Never is. And probably won't happen. Remember who the London Mayor is...everyone is digging in.
__________________
"Together we will make America great again. Thank you. God Bless you. And God Bless America." Donald Trump
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-27-2019, 08:20 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 11,190
Thanks: 1,177
Thanked 12,718 Times in 3,695 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
The newly formed Brexit Party is now the most popular party in the UK after the recent elections. Immigration is the #1 concern and its not going away. Muslims are going to outnumber Anglos in several major British cities by 2035.

Not to be outdone, similar wave of anti-EU immigration swept France. Marie LePen's party is now the most popular. Salvini's Lega Party projected to be the most popular in Italy.

The EU social experiment is over, following the death of the EU economic experiment. The natives are fed up with losing their cultural and social identities to outsiders attempting to replace their way of life.
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Chris R For This Totally Excellent Post:
Fudd (05-27-2019), JimBo (05-28-2019), ud2 (05-27-2019)
  #16  
Old 05-27-2019, 09:29 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
EU vote

Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Wow, are you talking about Great Britain or the US? You are 100% correct!
The vote must be honored and the exit must take place. Once this has been completed you can then determine if this is want you want as a country, and if it is not, then you can vote again. And of course there is going to be chaos. You have intertwined your country with the rest of Europe in almost every facet imaginable. You don't unravel that overnight, without getting your hands dirty. England will ultimately regain their sovereignty, culture, and self determination and once completed, will never turn back.
Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
The newly formed Brexit Party is now the most popular party in the UK after the recent elections. Immigration is the #1 concern and its not going away. Muslims are going to outnumber Anglos in several major British cities by 2035.

Not to be outdone, similar wave of anti-EU immigration swept France. Marie LePen's party is now the most popular. Salvini's Lega Party projected to be the most popular in Italy.

The EU social experiment is over, following the death of the EU economic experiment. The natives are fed up with losing their cultural and social identities to outsiders attempting to replace their way of life.
Tallying up the voting of all parties involved suggested that "Remainers" outnumbered "Brexiters".

You are surmising that while the exit my be tough, in the long run the UK will be better off. That is wishful thinking if ever I heard it.

It's entirely possible that before this over, said by the Brits themselves as the worst crisis since WW II, that there won't be a UK. Scotland has moved toward separation a few times over recent years; and the Scots strongly favored remaining in the UK. Scotland's separation movement may move forward over this issue.

Separation also creates a major border issue between Ireland and Northern Ireland that would be resolved by a reunification of the Ireland's. If that happened and Scotland separated that would leave a "New UK" comprised of only England and Wales.

The Brexit movement has been a calamity for the Brits. Suggesting in the end it will be worth the price overlooks just as likely outcomes that would be catastrophic.

Brexit should never have been put to a vote by the people. It was impossible for British voters to understand the consequences of their vote. Parliament should have made the go/no go decision.....they are the representatives of the people and have the resources to better grasp the complexity and consequences of leaving the EU. The voters could not.

I hope this all works out well for the British. But the odds are no better than 50-50 that it will. And the downside if it doesn't is enormous.
___________
Some time ago our President was in the UK and on TV made a few totally inappropriate remarks about Brexit and PM May, causing an uproar. The very next day on TV he denied having said what millions heard him say the day before.

Trump will soon be in the UK again; this time for a State visit and at a time when the Brexit mess is even worse that when he was there before and PM May is on the way out. No doubt the President will be pressed by the media to comment. Considering the extreme volatility of the matter, this has the makings of a trap for the President. The only thing a US President should say about the UK/Brexit/May/Johnson situation is absolutely nothing. What do you think the chances are of Trump being diplomatically appropriate if pressed about Brexit?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:50 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 11,190
Thanks: 1,177
Thanked 12,718 Times in 3,695 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post

The Brexit movement has been a calamity for the Brits. Suggesting in the end it will be worth the price overlooks just as likely outcomes that would be catastrophic.
Their economy is actually better than it was before the Brexit vote. The standing wisdom among remainers was a Brexit victory vote would turn the economy into a train wreck that was unrecoverable. It never happened. This was a near universal opinion I might add. They were universally wrong.

What's worse however is immigration. No denial there. The limitless influx of immigrants that refuse to assimilate to western values has left EU countries apoplectic.

Brexit should never have been put to a vote by the people. It was impossible for British voters to understand the consequences of their vote. Parliament should have made the go/no go decision.....they are the representatives of the people and have the resources to better grasp the complexity and consequences of leaving the EU. The voters could not.
Your rejection of the referendum doesnt have anything to do with Parliament not making the decision. Its the decision itself you reject. Had Parliament made the same decision, you'd be just as against it. This complexity and consequences argument is just staw-manning. The US election has complexity and consequences too -- should we hand that over to the House and Senate as well?

The beauty of voting and referendums is self-determination. Democracy isn't supposed to be painless and foolproof. You get some things right, you get some things wrong but you are willing to accept those responsibilities in exchange for having a legitimate say in your livelihood. I dont worship those making decisions in legislative or judicial settings either -- they make just as many stupefying decisions. Dred Scott and Jim Crow come to mind.
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Chris R For This Totally Excellent Post:
JimBo (05-28-2019), ud2 (05-27-2019)
  #18  
Old 05-27-2019, 11:22 PM
ud2 ud2 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,816
Thanks: 4,349
Thanked 3,657 Times in 2,418 Posts
ud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Their economy is actually better than it was before the Brexit vote. The standing wisdom among remainers was a Brexit victory vote would turn the economy into a train wreck that was unrecoverable. It never happened. This was a near universal opinion I might add. They were universally wrong.

What's worse however is immigration. No denial there. The limitless influx of immigrants that refuse to assimilate to western values has left EU countries apoplectic.



Your rejection of the referendum doesnt have anything to do with Parliament not making the decision. Its the decision itself you reject. Had Parliament made the same decision, you'd be just as against it. This complexity and consequences argument is just staw-manning. The US election has complexity and consequences too -- should we hand that over to the House and Senate as well?

The beauty of voting and referendums is self-determination. Democracy isn't supposed to be painless and foolproof. You get some things right, you get some things wrong but you are willing to accept those responsibilities in exchange for having a legitimate say in your livelihood. I dont worship those making decisions in legislative or judicial settings either -- they make just as many stupefying decisions. Dred Scott and Jim Crow come to mind.
Amen.

Sure there was some risk involved voting for wild-man Trump, but there was also some risk involved in voting for yet another conventional, establishment, do-nothing GOP candidate, and I was comfortable in accepting the risk involved with Trump. And I am very happy with the job that Trump has done, I do not regret voting for him.

Last edited by ud2; 05-27-2019 at 11:34 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-27-2019, 11:31 PM
ud2 ud2 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,816
Thanks: 4,349
Thanked 3,657 Times in 2,418 Posts
ud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
The newly formed Brexit Party is now the most popular party in the UK after the recent elections. Immigration is the #1 concern and its not going away. Muslims are going to outnumber Anglos in several major British cities by 2035.

Not to be outdone, similar wave of anti-EU immigration swept France. Marie LePen's party is now the most popular.
Yeah, I saw that LePen is the most popular now, I wonder if Macron wins re-election.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-27-2019, 11:58 PM
Fudd Fudd is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,443
Thanks: 2,787
Thanked 6,245 Times in 3,030 Posts
Fudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond repute
UAC, please....

"The common man cannot grasp the complexities of leaving the EU, blah, blah, blah."

They understand the costs of staying in the EU well. They live it. These people deserve to have control of their lives. I would not want un-elected EU officials dictating my fate.

Remember when the election of Trump was supposed to destroy the economy? Consider the source of that information.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-28-2019, 08:57 AM
jack72's Avatar
jack72 jack72 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 14,148
Thanks: 11,993
Thanked 6,495 Times in 3,731 Posts
jack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond reputejack72 has a reputation beyond repute
Right, leave the vote to Parliament, because just like our dysfunctional Congress, they would put politics and their swamp aside and do what is right.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to jack72 For This Totally Excellent Post:
JimBo (05-28-2019)
  #22  
Old 05-28-2019, 11:53 AM
Furio Furio is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 1,408
Thanks: 78
Thanked 398 Times in 234 Posts
Furio has much to be proud ofFurio has much to be proud ofFurio has much to be proud ofFurio has much to be proud ofFurio has much to be proud ofFurio has much to be proud ofFurio has much to be proud ofFurio has much to be proud ofFurio has much to be proud of
UK politics is a jumbled mess of 9 parties. Brexit party got 31.6 percent of the vote while the conservative party share plunged to 9.1 percent. So it doesn't
move the needle much as far as getting things completed.

The UK economy continues to limp along at 0.5 % gdp growth rate in Q1 of 2019.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-28-2019, 12:18 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Your point

Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
UAC, please....

"The common man cannot grasp the complexities of leaving the EU, blah, blah, blah."

They understand the costs of staying in the EU well. They live it. These people deserve to have control of their lives. I would not want un-elected EU officials dictating my fate.

Remember when the election of Trump was supposed to destroy the economy? Consider the source of that information.
Fudd, your opinion could be interpreted along these lines: No matter the issue the people grasp the complexities are able to make a good decision....the right decision. To quote the late Charles Krauthammer, "But at what cost?"

So getting out of the EU will, in the long run, be the best course for the Brits...no matter what. Would you say that, would the British voters say that, if Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to leave the UK...meaning, essentially, the end of the UK? Maybe. But I doubt it.

Companies, especially in the financial sector, have already started to shift activities away from London, the heart of the European financial sector. It's way too early to assume that the dire economic projections will not be proven correct.

And for three years the UK has been consumed by the issue leading to the downfall of May's government with no acceptable solution in sight.

So, blah, blah, blah all right. At what cost? How much additional damage will be done to pull this off? Never mind. It'll be worth it. Just trust the people.

I hope so.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-28-2019, 04:25 PM
JimBo JimBo is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Troy, OH
Posts: 2,326
Thanks: 3,768
Thanked 1,747 Times in 778 Posts
JimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond reputeJimBo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Brexit should never have been put to a vote by the people. It was impossible for British voters to understand the consequences of their vote. Parliament should have made the go/no go decision.....they are the representatives of the people and have the resources to better grasp the complexity and consequences of leaving the EU. The voters could not.
I read something like this comment from an actual American citizen and I just shake my head. You seriously underestimate, and in a very offensive manner, the very intelligence and will of citizens of Britain, and even the United States. We, and most of Europe, live in countries that are governed by representative democracies. Our representatives and leaders are put in place by us and they should govern based upon the philosophies and direction they were elected on. We control the direction of our country, not them. You may think Brits made the wrong decision on the Brexit vote, but it's their decision to make. They made the decision that they want their country back. What you are describing is what you see in a dictatorship.

The government making every decision for us? Give me a break. That's about as un-American as it gets. What's next? Have congress elect a President for us? I mean, we're obviously too dumb to elect a person like Trump, right?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-28-2019, 05:49 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Missing the point entirely

Originally Posted by JimBo View Post
I read something like this comment from an actual American citizen and I just shake my head. You seriously underestimate, and in a very offensive manner, the very intelligence and will of citizens of Britain, and even the United States. We, and most of Europe, live in countries that are governed by representative democracies. Our representatives and leaders are put in place by us and they should govern based upon the philosophies and direction they were elected on. We control the direction of our country, not them. You may think Brits made the wrong decision on the Brexit vote, but it's their decision to make. They made the decision that they want their country back. What you are describing is what you see in a dictatorship.

The government making every decision for us? Give me a break. That's about as un-American as it gets. What's next? Have congress elect a President for us? I mean, we're obviously too dumb to elect a person like Trump, right?
JimBo, you just don't get it!

Voting in a representative Democracy like ours and in the U.K. is based on the assumption that voters have sufficient information and knowledge re an issue to make an informed decision. It has absolutely nothing to do with voter intelligence or political persuasion.

The voters may not avail themselves of the information available and/or they may not understand it.....but the information must be available and understandable so that it's at least possible to make a sensible decision.

Citizens are not asked to vote on whether or not new pharmaceutical is safe and/or effective; or whether or not the terms and conditions of a treaty or trade agreement are good/bad; or whether or not the ozone layer will be affected by an industrial emission. There are countless examples.

Why not? Not because they are not intelligent enough to have an opinion, But because they simply aren't able to make an informed decision....they can't know enough.

We don't ask people to vote on whether or not the Fed's monetary policy regarding interest rates is correct...should rates be raised, lowered? Things like that have a very important impact on people's lives. It's just not possible for citizens to make an informed decision. In countless similar situations we leave the decisions to those that represent us and established agencies that have the resources at their disposal to better research, understand and evaluate the consequences. Even at that, we know all too well how often the wrong outcome results.

As regards Brexit the British people were asked to vote on an issue of incredible complexity and consequences that they could not possibly appreciate....indeed, that they were not even aware of. Further exacerbating the matter, numerous inflammatory issues were most likely the determining factors in many/most voters minds.

Oops! Look at what has occurred over the last three years with no end in sight.

When another referendum is mentioned some Priders have said, "Oh yeah, keep voting until you get the result you want".

Who wants? If another vote resulted in a different outcome it would reflect a change in what the voters want now that they have seen the result of their previous vote. And if the vote still favored Brexit after the experience of the last three years it would, indeed, confirm that the Brits want out of the EU. So be it!

I'm not saying the UK should stay or leave. That's up to the Brits. But a helluva lot has happened since the first vote...eye-opening awareness of the consequences of Brexit. if the Brits still feel they want out that will be reflected in a second vote to leave. There would not a third vote.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-28-2019, 06:08 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 11,190
Thanks: 1,177
Thanked 12,718 Times in 3,695 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
Name the eye-opening awareness of consequences they know now that they did not know before the vote. I cant think of one.

- We had the predicted consequence of an imploding financial and banking sector. Never happened.
- We had the predicted consequence of runaway inflation. Never happened.
- We had the predicted consequence of massive unemployment. Never happened.
- We had the predicted consequence of food shortages and higher energy costs. Never happened.
- We had the predicted consequence of no outside countries wanting to work with the UK in international trade after the vote. Just the opposite actually -- countries are in
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-28-2019, 06:26 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Simple answer

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Name the eye-opening awareness of consequences they know now that they did not know before the vote. I cant think of one.

- We had the predicted consequence of an imploding financial and banking sector. Never happened.
- We had the predicted consequence of runaway inflation. Never happened.
- We had the predicted consequence of massive unemployment. Never happened.
- We had the predicted consequence of food shortages and higher energy costs. Never happened.
- We had the predicted consequence of no outside countries wanting to work with the UK in international trade after the vote. Just the opposite actually -- countries are in
These were predictions....most overstated...of what would/will happen if the U.K. left the EU.

The U.K. has not left the EU.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-28-2019, 06:36 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 11,190
Thanks: 1,177
Thanked 12,718 Times in 3,695 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
Smile

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
As regards Brexit the British people were asked to vote on an issue of incredible complexity and consequences that they could not possibly appreciate....indeed, that they were not even aware of. Further exacerbating the matter, numerous inflammatory issues were most likely the determining factors in many/most voters minds.

Oops! Look at what has occurred over the last three years with no end in sight.
I would be interested to read your laundry list. It must be 10 pages long.
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-28-2019, 06:39 PM
Chris R's Avatar
Chris R Chris R is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 11,190
Thanks: 1,177
Thanked 12,718 Times in 3,695 Posts
Chris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond reputeChris R has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
These were predictions....most overstated...of what would/will happen if the U.K. left the EU.

The U.K. has not left the EU.
You're moving goalposts. Those were not predictions if UK left the EU. Those were prediction if the Brexit vote SIMPLY PASSED. It was supposed to be an immediate death spiral out of control because of the shock and uncertainty alone. By the time the UK actually split from the EU, the UK is supposed to be clinically dead.

Instead, the UK is doing much better now than before the vote -- with the exception of immigration of course.
__________________

C. M. Rieman | Publisher | 937.361.4630 | Get the latest here:

Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-28-2019, 06:58 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Time will tell

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
You're moving goalposts. Those were not predictions if UK left the EU. Those were prediction if the Brexit vote SIMPLY PASSED. It was supposed to be an immediate death spiral out of control because of the shock and uncertainty alone. By the time the UK actually split from the EU, the UK is supposed to be clinically dead.

Instead, the UK is doing much better now than before the vote -- with the exception of immigration of course.
I suppose we'll have to see how this works out for our friends. I hope well.

By the way. I am not deciding for the Brits. Brexit is up to them. What I am saying is that the procedure, voting, was wrong.

Think about this. When was the last time you voted on an issue in a Federal election? I'm not sure I ever have. We vote for people in Federal elections....representatives who we hope have the resources and the intelligence to make wise decisions on our behalf. We choose them based on their positions re issues. But we don't vote directly on the issues at the Federal level. That is my point...not whether the Brits should be in or out of the EU.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-28-2019, 08:03 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
A little bit more..

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I suppose we'll have to see how this works out for our friends. I hope well.

By the way. I am not deciding for the Brits. Brexit is up to them. What I am saying is that the procedure, voting, was wrong.

Think about this. When was the last time you voted on an issue in a Federal election? I'm not sure I ever have. We vote for people in Federal elections....representatives who we hope have the resources and the intelligence to make wise decisions on our behalf. We choose them based on their positions re issues. But we don't vote directly on the issues at the Federal level. That is my point...not whether the Brits should be in or out of the EU.
I'm a fan of George Will...a conservative columnist (although every one of his columns has a few words I've never heard of before). In a piece on Brexit about six months ago Will explained that "Direct Democracy" (where the people vote on issues) is very dangerous because voting is often driven by emotion and sentiment. Will explains that "a bedrock principle of representative Democracy is that people do not decide issues, they decide who shall decide", i.e., peope vote for their representatives who then decide on the issues.

That was my point (and Will's) re Brexit, a vital issue. The people should not be deciding, their representatives should. And so far in the UK even the representatives cannot decide, at least re how to go about leaving the U.K.

As I've said, I hope our best friends across the pond figure it out in a way that works well for them.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:10 AM
Fudd Fudd is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,443
Thanks: 2,787
Thanked 6,245 Times in 3,030 Posts
Fudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond repute
UAC, you always seem to trust the will of the political establishment over the will of the general population. You seem to think that the political establishment is the only group capable of understanding the issue and assume that it prioritizes the greater good of everyone over it's own interests and preservation of it's own power.

I find this extremely naive at best.

The concentration of power that you desire can be seen on display in China and Russia.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Fudd For This Totally Excellent Post:
JimBo (05-29-2019)
  #33  
Old 05-29-2019, 08:58 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
You are mistaken

Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
UAC, you always seem to trust the will of the political establishment over the will of the general population. You seem to think that the political establishment is the only group capable of understanding the issue and assume that it prioritizes the greater good of everyone over it's own interests and preservation of it's own power.

I find this extremely naive at best.

The concentration of power that you desire can be seen on display in China and Russia.
Fudd, re who I trust....you are mistaken.

Back to George Will's comment: "A bedrock principle of representative democracy is that the people do not decide issues,...they decide who shall decide". When was the last time you voted on an issue in a Federal election?

Never? If not your personal voting history is exactly what I am explaining as the way a democracy should function.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:12 AM
cj's Avatar
cj cj is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,809
Thanks: 2,915
Thanked 3,921 Times in 2,052 Posts
cj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond repute
Which is the problem with the House. How many democrats in the house are from Trump supporting districts? As soon as they get to DC they are beat down by Nancy to toe the party line and to not vote as a representative of their district. I am in full support of term limits.
Posted via Mobile Device
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:13 AM
Mich Flyer's Avatar
Mich Flyer Mich Flyer is offline
General
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,484
Thanks: 1,856
Thanked 2,056 Times in 1,317 Posts
Mich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
George Will and the never-Trumpers: Are they tired of losing yet? | Mulshine

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I'm a fan of George Will...a conservative columnist (although every one of his columns has a few words I've never heard of before)
George Will and the never-Trumpers: Are they tired of losing yet? | Mulshine

Not surprised. George Will and anti Trumpers are in accord. But the best had to be the headline on George Will's column a few days earlier: "If Trump wins the nomination, the GOP must keep him out of the White House."

https://www.nj.com/opinion/2018/07/g...hey_tired.html
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:19 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Fine, but,...

Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
George Will and the never-Trumpers: Are they tired of losing yet? | Mulshine

Not surprised. George Will and anti Trumpers are in accord. But the best had to be the headline on George Will's column a few days earlier: "If Trump wins the nomination, the GOP must keep him out of the White House."

https://www.nj.com/opinion/2018/07/g...hey_tired.html
What did I say about Will that has anything to do with Trump?

I'll repeat: When did you ever vote on an issue in a national election? You know the answer.

Last edited by UACFlyer; 05-29-2019 at 09:41 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:22 AM
Mich Flyer's Avatar
Mich Flyer Mich Flyer is offline
General
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,484
Thanks: 1,856
Thanked 2,056 Times in 1,317 Posts
Mich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
What did I say about Will that has anything to do with Brexit.

I'll repeat: When did you ever vote on an issue in a national election? You know the answer.
It has to do with globalism. Some in England are for a globalist England. The people in England are for a nationalist England. Trump is for a national USA. The English people do not want globalism. Trump and the American people were voted in for a non global USA. Will does not like Trump's national USA. He is a never Trumper, just like you UAC.

Sulzberger's Slimes catches a break today as we instead rebut a George Will column appearing in his home-base paper, The Washington Compost, and syndicated nationally in 450 other newspapers. Yes indeed, the Judeo-Globalist New World Order Mafia has been very good to the "conservative" George Will.

http://tomatobubble.com/id996.html

Last edited by Mich Flyer; 05-29-2019 at 09:30 AM..
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Mich Flyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
JimBo (05-29-2019)
  #38  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:47 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Avoiding the issue....

Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
It has to do with globalism. Some in England are for a globalist England. The people in England are for a nationalist England. Trump is for a national USA. The English people do not want globalism. Trump and the American people were voted in for a non global USA. Will does not like Trump's national USA. He is a never Trumper, just like you UAC.

Sulzberger's Slimes catches a break today as we instead rebut a George Will column appearing in his home-base paper, The Washington Compost, and syndicated nationally in 450 other newspapers. Yes indeed, the Judeo-Globalist New World Order Mafia has been very good to the "conservative" George Will.

http://tomatobubble.com/id996.html
When did you ever vote on a National issue?

Is it not true that in National elections you vote for your representatives....not on issues? Yes? No?

You're evading the issue by changing the subject. I know that Will is a "never Trumper". But that is not the issue we are discussing.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:15 AM
Mich Flyer's Avatar
Mich Flyer Mich Flyer is offline
General
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,484
Thanks: 1,856
Thanked 2,056 Times in 1,317 Posts
Mich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeMich Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
The Brexit Party has triumphed in the European elections, sending panic through already split Conservative and Labour parties.

In the UK, Nigel Farage’s Brexit party took 31% off the vote — far ahead of any other party — and won 29 seats.

As Theresa May’s immovable Brexit plan finally collides with the unstoppable force of Parliament and its voting arithmetic, her resilience has finally waned. Her resignation in two weeks’ time means that she will have held office for just a few days longer than Gordon Brown and her failure to deliver on the Conservative party’s Brexit promise means that we must now face the likelihood of a hard Brexiteer successor as PM – with odds on Boris Johnson as the most likely candidate.

Hard-line Brexiteer [Boris Johnson] may look to take the UK out of the European Union (EU) without a deal, despite Parliament voting in favour of essentially removing the option. He could do this by failing to comply with the EU's demands that the UK should continue to follow the rules. This presumably would lead to the EU agreeing to terminate the relationship in October.

There are now nine Tory MPs in the running for the role of leader of the Conservative Party, and Prime Minister, with Boris Johnson endorsing a no-deal exit if no better deal were on offer

https://www.investmentweek.co.uk/inv...p-20-economies
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:04 PM
Fudd Fudd is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,443
Thanks: 2,787
Thanked 6,245 Times in 3,030 Posts
Fudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond reputeFudd has a reputation beyond repute
UAC, it is not about having a straight vote on every issue. It is about the public being able to steer the general direction of their own government. Self-determination.

I did not vote on issues directly when I voted for Trump. But I do feel my voice was honored because he is doing just about everything that he promised on the issues. That is why I will vote for him again.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:42 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,201
Thanks: 3,431
Thanked 3,992 Times in 2,427 Posts
UACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeUACFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Guys, you are not listening!

Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
The Brexit Party has triumphed in the European elections, sending panic through already split Conservative and Labour parties.

In the UK, Nigel Farage’s Brexit party took 31% off the vote — far ahead of any other party — and won 29 seats.

As Theresa May’s immovable Brexit plan finally collides with the unstoppable force of Parliament and its voting arithmetic, her resilience has finally waned. Her resignation in two weeks’ time means that she will have held office for just a few days longer than Gordon Brown and her failure to deliver on the Conservative party’s Brexit promise means that we must now face the likelihood of a hard Brexiteer successor as PM – with odds on Boris Johnson as the most likely candidate.

Hard-line Brexiteer [Boris Johnson] may look to take the UK out of the European Union (EU) without a deal, despite Parliament voting in favour of essentially removing the option. He could do this by failing to comply with the EU's demands that the UK should continue to follow the rules. This presumably would lead to the EU agreeing to terminate the relationship in October.

There are now nine Tory MPs in the running for the role of leader of the Conservative Party, and Prime Minister, with Boris Johnson endorsing a no-deal exit if no better deal were on offer

https://www.investmentweek.co.uk/inv...p-20-economies
Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
UAC, it is not about having a straight vote on every issue. It is about the public being able to steer the general direction of their own government. Self-determination.

I did not vote on issues directly when I voted for Trump. But I do feel my voice was honored because he is doing just about everything that he promised on the issues. That is why I will vote for him again.
Mich, Fudd, you're not thinking about what I am saying! I agree with both of your posts. But you're missing the point. In our democratic system we do not vote on national issues.....Mich, you don't, ....Fudd, you don't,...I don't. Rather, we vote for representatives that we feel share our view of issues.

Re Brexit, the Brits were asked to vote directly on an issue of profound national importance....Direct Democracy. Not one of us has ever done that. We live in a "representative democracy". So, while I have no trouble agreeing with your views on issues....I will again point out that you do not vote on issues.....what you do when you vote is to select representatives who will decide the outcome of issues on your behalf.

Surely you understand what I'm saying.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-30-2019, 01:14 AM
ud2 ud2 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,816
Thanks: 4,349
Thanked 3,657 Times in 2,418 Posts
ud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I'm a fan of George Will...a conservative columnist (although every one of his columns has a few words I've never heard of before). In a piece on Brexit about six months ago Will explained that "Direct Democracy" (where the people vote on issues) is very dangerous because voting is often driven by emotion and sentiment. Will explains that "a bedrock principle of representative Democracy is that people do not decide issues, they decide who shall decide", i.e., peope vote for their representatives who then decide on the issues.
We might be getting closer to more direct democracy if we have to have a constitutional convention in order to get a balanced budget amendment and term limits.

Congress will not stop spending so much money because less spending makes them less influential and hurts their job security.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement System V2.6 By   Branden

     
 
Copyright 1996-2012 UDPride.com. All Rights Reserved.