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  #1  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:33 PM
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Brexit

What the hell is the matter with the Brits? Brexit is tearing the Country apart. For what?

I've been keeping up with the Brexit drama....often reading an entire page of a paper describing in detail all the "ins and outs" of various options and possibilities for the Brits....without ever reading a sentence or paragraph explaining anything good about leaving the EU. It's all just how bad the various options are.

There is little doubt in my mind that a second referendum would have a different outcome. The Brits never should have been asked to vote on an issue of such great complexity as to be impossible for various outcomes to be understood. Parliament should have had the responsibility for the decision....and it's doubtful that even those guys/gals would understand the issues. Ugh!
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:40 AM
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When you make a mistake...

When a mistake has been made....especially a really big mistake,...what does a rational person try to do? Correct the mistake. Right?

The Brits made a grave mistake when they voted to leave the EU....Brexit. Since then the Country has been tearing itself apart with no end in sight.

But there is a n obvious way to end all this...to correct the mistake. Another referendum. Now that the consequences of Brexit are clear, simply ask the voters again, "Should the UK leave the EU"?

The odds are overwhelming that given a second chance the Brits will vote to stay put. So, why not vote again? is there any reasonable excuse for not having a second referendum?

What's the matter with those people? They're acting like us.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:33 PM
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I've only followed this anecdotally, but I thought that the major reason that "Brexit" passed, was on the issue of border security and the fact that Brussels was imposing demands on GB that they must be open to "immigrants/refugees" from the mid east. They already have a problem in that regard and wanted to prevent it from destroying their culture. GB should have pushed back hard on that one issue and thus would not be in this position today. Does that sound right??
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:41 PM
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I thought it also had to do with England (and Germany) basically picking up the tab for weak countries like Greece (and Italy??) who contribute squat but want their debts paid by others.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:49 PM
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Grievances

Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I've only followed this anecdotally, but I thought that the major reason that "Brexit" passed, was on the issue of border security and the fact that Brussels was imposing demands on GB that they must be open to "immigrants/refugees" from the mid east. They already have a problem in that regard and wanted to prevent it from destroying their culture. GB should have pushed back hard on that one issue and thus would not be in this position today. Does that sound right??
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I thought it also had to do with England (and Germany) basically picking up the tab for weak countries like Greece (and Italy??) who contribute squat but want their debts paid by others.
Whatever the UK's grievances, they were infinitely better off before Brexit, living with their beefs and trying to work them out within the EU system. Instead they find themselves in a crisis self-described as the worst since WW II. That is really saying something. And there is no end in sight....just one bad option after another.

Sometimes a mistake has to be acknowledged and rectified. These days it's almost impossible to find an analysis explaining a positive aspect of the UK leaving the EU....just bad effects in varying degree.

It's way past time for the Brits to wake up. This mess goes far beyond the UK; World economic stability is affected.
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:42 PM
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Sure. Have a referendum. When you dont like the outcome just ignore it and continue having them until you get the result you want. Democracy is dead.

The only place Brexit is not popular is London. That's it. Everywhere else its overwhelming popular. London is basically trying to run the country like CA and NY opinions run America.

Whether Brexit is a good idea is irrelevant. Personally I think its fabulous but even if it's not, it's what the people wanted and voted for in a legal democratic way.

That Brexit might not pass today is also irrelevant. Some of the people that voted for Brexit - older people - have died. Does that mean younger voters should count as 1.5 votes each? Imagine congressional bills being nullified here in the US because we didnt like the outcomes and later on decided "well it was popular then but now not so much...I'll just ignore it as if it no longer applies. Yeah equal housing laws and other things were popular back in time, but we dont need that now. As landlord, I'll just pretend it no longer exists and the stuff doesn't apply to me."

Brexit passed because Britain wanted Brexit. No more no less. They were tired of allowing unelected bureaucrats in Brussels make policy matters for Brits. The other big crutch was immigration. The massive migrant problem and "no-go zones" are at a breaking point.

If Britain doesn't honor the referendum and voice of the people and has what is effectively another referendum, the country may collapse into an attempted coup. And rightly so considering rule of law and democracy would be dead.

There are infinite good reasons to leave the EU, UAC, but you are conveniently ignoring them. Remember when Brexit haters guaranteed economic collapse in the days, weeks, and months after the vote? It was all they could talk about. Hasn't happened. Many sectors are actually improving because of the foreshadowing of what Brexit will provide.

Nobody in the US would tolerate the United Nations voting and approving on USA matters that trumped our own elected officials and laws on things like border security, immigration, trade, fisheries, industry, trade with countries outside the UN, etc etc. Not for one second would we stand for it. Its representation without election by those being governed.

Brits just want their country back. They want to be Britain again, not someone or something else. Many other countries want out too based on public sentiment. If they have referendums they will also pass. The great EU experiment never worked because diversity fails whenever the culture and values itself are not shared. You cant ever square western Brit values with Sharia law no-go zones, Brussels ruling power, and free access to your social services by foreigners that never paid into the system. Greece, Italy..they are all imploding. Did you see the recent protests in Paris. They make Trump rallies look like Beto ORourke rallies. Germany may be next. It's why Merkel lost the support of the people and is on the outs. Theresa May? Gone.

Europe's failed experiment.
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:33 PM
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Not quite the point.

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Sure. Have a referendum. When you dont like the outcome just ignore it and continue having them until you get the result you want. Democracy is dead.

The only place Brexit is not popular is London. That's it. Everywhere else its overwhelming popular. London is basically trying to run the country like CA and NY opinions run America.

Whether Brexit is a good idea is irrelevant. Personally I think its fabulous but even if it's not, it's what the people wanted and voted for in a legal democratic way.

That Brexit might not pass today is also irrelevant. Some of the people that voted for Brexit - older people - have died. Does that mean younger voters should count as 1.5 votes each? Imagine congressional bills being nullified here in the US because we didnt like the outcomes and later on decided "well it was popular then but now not so much...I'll just ignore it as if it no longer applies. Yeah equal housing laws and other things were popular back in time, but we dont need that now. As landlord, I'll just pretend it no longer exists and the stuff doesn't apply to me."

Brexit passed because Britain wanted Brexit. No more no less. They were tired of allowing unelected bureaucrats in Brussels make policy matters for Brits. The other big crutch was immigration. The massive migrant problem and "no-go zones" are at a breaking point.

If Britain doesn't honor the referendum and voice of the people and has what is effectively another referendum, the country may collapse into an attempted coup. And rightly so considering rule of law and democracy would be dead.

There are infinite good reasons to leave the EU, UAC, but you are conveniently ignoring them. Remember when Brexit haters guaranteed economic collapse in the days, weeks, and months after the vote? It was all they could talk about. Hasn't happened. Many sectors are actually improving because of the foreshadowing of what Brexit will provide.

Nobody in the US would tolerate the United Nations voting and approving on USA matters that trumped our own elected officials and laws on things like border security, immigration, trade, fisheries, industry, trade with countries outside the UN, etc etc. Not for one second would we stand for it. Its representation without election by those being governed.

Brits just want their country back. They want to be Britain again, not someone or something else. Many other countries want out too based on public sentiment. If they have referendums they will also pass. The great EU experiment never worked because diversity fails whenever the culture and values itself are not shared. You cant ever square western Brit values with Sharia law no-go zones, Brussels ruling power, and free access to your social services by foreigners that never paid into the system. Greece, Italy..they are all imploding. Did you see the recent protests in Paris. They make Trump rallies look like Beto ORourke rallies. Germany may be next. It's why Merkel lost the support of the people and is on the outs. Theresa May? Gone.

Europe's failed experiment.
The primary argument concerning the Referendum re leaving the EU is this: The British people were asked to vote on a matter, "yes" or "no", having such complexity that the consequences of their vote could not possibly have been understood or foreseen. What has been happening since the vote is proof of that.

Not long ago George Will wrote a column concerning matters like this...not Brexit...but policy matters generally. He explained that in a Democracy people should not be voting on policies. Rather, people vote for their representatives who then vote for them on policy matters.

Britons just want their Country back? They just want to be Briton again? No benefit whatsoever to being a member of the EU, right? The Brits are learning otherwise as they attempt to muddle through what they describe as the greatest crisis since WW II.

If going it alone is such a great idea for the Brits why have they been struggling so mightily for two years in an attempt to figure out how to do it?

A coup? Nonsense! No one has suggested that the UK "not honor" the Referendum. What has been widely suggested is that, considering the two years of absolute chaos following the first Referendum, and in light of the great importance of the matter, the voters be asked again the very same question they were asked before. Brexit or not. If they vote again for Brexit...so be it; go for it. But for sure the Brits understand a lot more about the issues and consequences of Brexit than the populist BS available to them at the time of the first vote. Given another opportunity to vote they may change their minds....or not. It's still up to the voters.

As to the notion that the vote may be affected because many first voters have died...give me a break!
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:31 PM
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You just answered your own question UAC. Had the voters voted "No" to the referendum, they could not have possibly known the complexity and repercussions of staying in the EU long-term. So a new referendum would need to have been given to give the Brit citizens a chance to re-think their naivete' and better understand why the EU was and remains so disastrous to the Brit economy, social fabric, and culture. How could they have possibly known how atrocious the EU was? They never really thought about it in more cogent political, social, and economic terms on a global scale -- and even worse did not fully understand the same political, social, and economic freedom and prosperity that being sovereign again would provide. A referendum would have been needed to correct the ignorance of the "remain" vote. Yes?

As for people dying off, nobody outside London or over 45 are asking for a new referendum. Its all younger voters and mostly the politicians that want it. It was up to the voters. The voters answered. Its not the "remain" camp's fault younger voters dont vote enough. Tough titties.

The EU has been a complete and utter failure for Britain and its not even up for debate. Their economy has suffered immensely. Their recovery from the recession was slower than almost any other first world power. The unfettered immigration has hijacked the British culture to the point where you almost cant even recognize it anymore -- in LONDON of all places which is the irony. People are getting stabbed left and right. No-go zones the Brit Met police wont even go into, Sharia law, the NHS literally crumbling on its knees due to all the increased (mostly poor transient) low-skilled immigration, and people in Brussels Belgium making laws that affect Brits lives in which no Brit ever directly elected them to make such laws -- nevermind many of them are appointed and cant even be fired.

Their country is under siege and most Brits outside downtown London will tell you they are living America's future and its not pleasant.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:41 PM
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Flawed logic

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
You just answered your own question UAC. Had the voters voted "No" to the referendum, they could not have possibly known the complexity and repercussions of staying in the EU long-term. So a new referendum would need to have been given to give the Brit citizens a chance to re-think their naivete' and better understand why the EU was and remains so disastrous to the Brit economy, social fabric, and culture. How could they have possibly known how atrocious the EU was? They never really thought about it in more cogent political, social, and economic terms on a global scale -- and even worse did not fully understand the same political, social, and economic freedom and prosperity that being sovereign again would provide. A referendum would have been needed to correct the ignorance of the "remain" vote. Yes?

As for people dying off, nobody outside London or over 45 are asking for a new referendum. Its all younger voters and mostly the politicians that want it. It was up to the voters. The voters answered. Its not the "remain" camp's fault younger voters dont vote enough. Tough titties.

The EU has been a complete and utter failure for Britain and its not even up for debate. Their economy has suffered immensely. Their recovery from the recession was slower than almost any other first world power. The unfettered immigration has hijacked the British culture to the point where you almost cant even recognize it anymore -- in LONDON of all places which is the irony. People are getting stabbed left and right. No-go zones the Brit Met police wont even go into, Sharia law, the NHS literally crumbling on its knees due to all the increased (mostly poor transient) low-skilled immigration, and people in Brussels Belgium making laws that affect Brits lives in which no Brit ever directly elected them to make such laws -- never mind many of them are appointed and cant even be fired.

Their country is under siege and most Brits outside downtown London will tell you they are living America's future and its not pleasant.
Compared to the last two years, prior to the Brexit vote the UK was positively tranquil. That being the case, a "no" vote would have continued the state of "tranquility" and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

And why/how, pray tell, are the out-of-town Brits living America's future?
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:22 PM
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Chris, you've hit multiple nails squarely on the head. The Brits were fed up with the damage done by diktats from the (unelected) European elites. They wanted their country (and their democracy) back and are well on their way to getting it.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Compared to the last two years, prior to the Brexit vote the UK was positively tranquil. That being the case, a "no" vote would have continued the state of "tranquility" and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

And why/how, pray tell, are the out-of-town Brits living America's future?
Tranquil? What rock have you been living under UAC? The immigration population was completing taking over the entire country -- much of it Islamist extremism and Sharia law. Almost 40% of Muslims living in Britain identified as believing in Sharia Law, and almost 20% believed homosexuality should be dealt with the penalty of death.

The entire fisheries industry in Britain has been decimated by the European Parliament controlling British waters and telling them when and how they can fish off their own shores.

The economy was mired in the worst recovery of almost any western European nation at the time the Brexit vote was taken.

The NHS is bursting at the seams and completely unable to handle the massive influx of immigration and strain on its resources which have been paid for and provided by British citizens but now prostituted by immigrants from Eastern European EU countries that paid nothing into the system but reap the same benefits. Its hurting the natives with drastic consequences. Many cannot even get assigned a general doctor for months, nevermind see a doctor. Wait periods for a simple knee replacement are approaching 12-18 months.

Trade in Britain has been all but destroyed by the EU with ridiculous regulations on what can and cannot be traded, how it can be traded, what countries are allowed to negotiate for trade with the EU, what countries are off limits, what those trade tariffs and taxes are, which industries are included, which get special exclusions, on and on. The British have surrendered their entire sovereignty to people they never elected, who do not even live in Britain, to run their economic and social lives with little to no say in the matter. Britain cannot even control its own borders the way it sees fit because the EU mandates free and safe travel throughout the entire union. Its only a matter of good fortune that the British kept the pound sterling and never adopted the Euro or things would be even worse -- Britain has rebounded from the recession in the past two years FASTER than those in the EU using the Euro. Its still bad, but its better.

You act like the British are a bunch of idiots and dont know what they want. They voted because they want out. The realllly realllly do want out. You just have to get outside the London bubble where all the social democrats are to see how most of the average working class people have been decimated by forced cultural assimilation with people that do not share the British culture.

Im sorry but when you immigrate to Britain and then demand that the British Met police and other forces are told by immigrants "not to come into our neighborhood and police our streets or else"....its a real problem. Its a real problem when non-Muslims are specifically directed by law enforcement not to venture into Muslim neighborhoods because its too dangerous for them and they cannot guarantee their safety and wont even protect them if they do. Muslims and other cultures immigrating to the UK is not in an of itself a problem. But not assimilating with British culture -- which is to say western values -- is where the country is falling apart.

When your immigrants do not recognize women as having the right to drive a car, think homosexuals should be killed, or walk down the street with their entire bodies covered or fear beatings by your husbands -- we have a problem.

Yet you speak as if the Brits are some anomaly that simply made some referendum mistake that would never happen again or anywhere else. Huh? Have you not been following the protests in other EU countries? They are fracturing at the seams for the very same reason the UK is. They are tired of being forced to lose to their identity in the name of homogeneity. These are not small street corner protests either. We're talking half a million people taking to the streets in France, Italy, Greece, Germany and other countries. There is a reason May, Marcon, Merkel, and others are fighting for their political lives right now -- they are receiving the exact same blowback in their own countries that the British parliament is receiving in Britain. People are tired of being ruled by Brussels and want to be themselves again. They want to control their own borders how they see fit, make trade negotiations with whomever they wish, have an immigration policy of their own that reflects the will of their own people, and maybe most importantly -- are tired of being tied to a union of countries where the more prosperous and financially responsible countries are on the hook for helping prop up the least financially capable countries. There is absolutely no reason a mega-economy like Germany should be in the same socio-economic construct as Greece.

Its just so condescending to talk about these people like they are so stupid they dont know whats best for themselves, and they need people from across the pond who havent lived their misery to put them on the proper path. Britain won't be the last country to leave the EU and all those countries and leaders I mentioned are absolutely scared shytless that if they have a referendum or vote on EU membership and let the people decide -- the gig is up and countries will drop like flies.

The EU promised much and delivered very little. Economies are not better, borders are not more secure, culture is not more enriched, cohesion is not tighter. Its created nothing but resentment, disdain, and apoplexy on the part of those that have been affected most by it -- lower- and middle-classes that just want to have their countries back and be left alone. Were the EU doing so well, we would not be seeing 500,000 people on the streets in many EU cities every other weekend begging and pleading for change.

Britain had a vote. It should be honored. You cant erase what happened because you dont like the outcome. Who's to say Women's Suffrage was a smart decision? We should just ignore it and have a do-over.


The EU offers nothing that Britain or any other country cant earn on their own. They did for hundreds of years just fine. They can still trade with the world, be friends with the world, make allies as they see fit, control their borders, and most importantly create rules and regulations only from those elected officials directly elected by those affected by their politics.



The "from each according to ability to each according to need" creep is America's future if we're not careful. Europe is showing us where we are headed unless we pay attention to the results of forced cooperation instead of mutually agreed cooperation among parties in it for the same reasons. Whats to stop the USA, Canada, and Mexico from forming a NAU (North America Union) with a common currency and unfettered travel between? And the same trade deals with the rest of the world? Why should Canada get the same trade deal with Lichtenstein as the USA if the USA can send 100x the product Lichteinstein citizens want to buy?
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:10 PM
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Thanks for the great explanation Chris. I knew some of these things, and others not. Puts it all in perspective. A revote would be a slap in the face those who voted to get out, and non-democratic message. The vote to get out was for a reason.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
. . . The NHS is bursting at the seams and completely unable to handle the massive influx of immigration and strain on its resources which have been paid for and provided by British citizens but now prostituted by immigrants from Eastern European EU countries that paid nothing into the system but reap the same benefits. Its hurting the natives with drastic consequences. Many cannot even get assigned a general doctor for months, nevermind see a doctor. Wait periods for a simple knee replacement are approaching 12-18 months.

Trade in Britain has been all but destroyed by the EU with ridiculous regulations on what can and cannot be traded, how it can be traded, what countries are allowed to negotiate for trade with the EU, what countries are off limits, what those trade tariffs and taxes are, which industries are included, which get special exclusions, on and on. The British have surrendered their entire sovereignty to people they never elected, who do not even live in Britain, to run their economic and social lives with little to no say in the matter. Britain cannot even control its own borders the way it sees fit because the EU mandates free and safe travel throughout the entire union. Its only a matter of good fortune that the British kept the pound sterling and never adopted the Euro or things would be even worse -- Britain has rebounded from the recession in the past two years FASTER than those in the EU using the Euro. Its still bad, but its better.

You act like the British are a bunch of idiots and dont know what they want. They voted because they want out. The realllly realllly do want out. You just have to get outside the London bubble where all the social democrats are to see how most of the average working class people have been decimated by forced cultural assimilation with people that do not share the British culture.

Im sorry but when you immigrate to Britain and then demand that the British Met police and other forces are told by immigrants "not to come into our neighborhood and police our streets or else"....its a real problem. Its a real problem when non-Muslims are specifically directed by law enforcement not to venture into Muslim neighborhoods because its too dangerous for them and they cannot guarantee their safety and wont even protect them if they do. Muslims and other cultures immigrating to the UK is not in an of itself a problem. But not assimilating with British culture -- which is to say western values -- is where the country is falling apart.

When your immigrants do not recognize women as having the right to drive a car, think homosexuals should be killed, or walk down the street with their entire bodies covered or fear beatings by your husbands -- we have a problem. . . .

. . . Its just so condescending to talk about these people like they are so stupid they dont know whats best for themselves, and they need people from across the pond who havent lived their misery to put them on the proper path. Britain won't be the last country to leave the EU and all those countries and leaders I mentioned are absolutely scared shytless that if they have a referendum or vote on EU membership and let the people decide -- the gig is up and countries will drop like flies.

The EU promised much and delivered very little. Economies are not better, borders are not more secure, culture is not more enriched, cohesion is not tighter. Its created nothing but resentment, disdain, and apoplexy on the part of those that have been affected most by it -- lower- and middle-classes that just want to have their countries back and be left alone. Were the EU doing so well, we would not be seeing 500,000 people on the streets in many EU cities every other weekend begging and pleading for change.

Britain had a vote. It should be honored. You cant erase what happened because you dont like the outcome. Who's to say Women's Suffrage was a smart decision? We should just ignore it and have a do-over.

The EU offers nothing that Britain or any other country cant earn on their own. They did for hundreds of years just fine. They can still trade with the world, be friends with the world, make allies as they see fit, control their borders, and most importantly create rules and regulations only from those elected officials directly elected by those affected by their politics.

The "from each according to ability to each according to need" creep is America's future if we're not careful. Europe is showing us where we are headed unless we pay attention to the results of forced cooperation instead of mutually agreed cooperation among parties in it for the same reasons. Whats to stop the USA, Canada, and Mexico from forming a NAU (North America Union) with a common currency and unfettered travel between? And the same trade deals with the rest of the world? Why should Canada get the same trade deal with Lichtenstein as the USA if the USA can send 100x the product Lichteinstein citizens want to buy?
Wow, are you talking about Great Britain or the US? You are 100% correct!
The vote must be honored and the exit must take place. Once this has been completed you can then determine if this is want you want as a country, and if it is not, then you can vote again. And of course there is going to be chaos. You have intertwined your country with the rest of Europe in almost every facet imaginable. You don't unravel that overnight, without getting your hands dirty. England will ultimately regain their sovereignty, culture, and self determination and once completed, will never turn back.
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Mad Props to N2663R For This Totally Excellent Post:
JimBo (02-14-2019)
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
England will ultimately regain their sovereignty, culture, and self determination and once completed, will never turn back.
They let the cancer in and it won't be easy to kill. Never is. And probably won't happen. Remember who the London Mayor is...everyone is digging in.
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