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03-14-2013, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
Conferences don't boot members out.
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I would add the word normally after the word conferences. A conference might even boot a school out and then invite them back several years later.
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03-14-2013, 06:47 PM
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True,...
Originally Posted by longtimefan
I would add the word normally after the word conferences. A conference might even boot a school out and then invite them back several years later.
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....we know it has happened at least once. But, even that time the conference went to great pains to prevent it.
So, while it could happen,....I'm sure you'll agree that it would be extraordinary should something like that happen. And it certainly would give the new conference a black eye.
Whatever, seems as if the C7 will make their announcement in about a week.....after the conference tournaments are over, but before the NCAAs begin. They, or someone, said 7-10 days. If so, that would be the right time frame. Hopefully they won't drag it out until after the NCAAs....that would leave us hanging another three weeks. Ugh!
This has got to end.
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03-14-2013, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
I would add the word normally after the word conferences. A conference might even boot a school out and then invite them back several years later.
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Teams getting kicked out of conferences almost never happens. Temple's football team getting kicked out of the BE is the only example of this that I can think of. And they deserved to be kicked out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_...otball#Decline
"Temple joined the Big East Conference in 1991, but had difficulty competing against teams with better facilities and bigger budgets. The Owls would not win a conference game until 1995, and would only win 16 conference games during their 14-year run in the league. Temple won as many as three league games only once (1997: 3-8, 3-4 Big East) and went winless in league play six times. Overall, they had a 14-80 record against Big East foes."
That Wikipedia paragraph contradicts itself, it says that Temple only won 16 conference games in 14 years in the league, but then later says that overall Temple had a 14-80 record in the league. I'm not sure which number is correct, 16 or 14.
Last edited by ud2; 03-14-2013 at 06:55 PM..
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03-14-2013, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
I don't understand your reaction (although that's nothing new). You said our small TV market would hurt us. I simply said you can have a small market with a lot of people watching, or a large market with not that many people watching, so our small market might not hurt us as much as some think. No need for the ridiculous reaction.
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Dead on Longtime. Peeps get too caught up in market size. For instance take Tuscaloosa, Auburn, State College, Bloomington...see where I'm going? It's all marketing and perceived regional/national rep. Market size is the same as the mid-major label, it is used to exclude. With the 24 hour news cycle and instant access to the latest updates labels are quickly dying, but some powers that be are trying to get their last grab of the big $$$.
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03-14-2013, 08:18 PM
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2nd Lieutenant
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
I just had a thought (my wife says that is dangerous). According to this morning's DDN, Robbins told Harris he was hearing UD was the "last team in" but was "less sure of the timetable." My thought is that UD could have been the last team selected (perhaps beating out Richmond for the last spot), but still be one of the first three to join. Just because they may have been the last team selected doesn't mean they couldn't be among the first three to join if there were reasons (such as geography) which would make that move more palatable. Just a thought.
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Interesting thought. And in that scenario Robbins could be considered competent.
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03-14-2013, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by purpieschu
Interesting thought. And in that scenario Robbins could be considered competent.
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So with his connections could he be considered an "in", and if so would that make him in-competent
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03-14-2013, 10:07 PM
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In-competent, you say? I bet that's exactly the same things as being in-famous!
http://youtu.be/GIGtHhAfe8w
So surely, we're starting play in the Big East this fall. Done and done...
And stop calling me Shirley.
Rick
Last edited by Rick Scaia; 03-14-2013 at 10:11 PM..
Reason: apparently, I suck at embedding, so it's just a link to the video...
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03-15-2013, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
rollo says we are not allowed to use the word "if." That must mean we are IN.
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Okay . . . ifin' will do, as in 'ifin' we be invited, we is in!
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03-15-2013, 03:01 AM
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I'm pretty sure this guy is reading everyone else's rumors, splitting the difference, and calling it his own scoop. Choose your own adventure. Or conference.
"The next bit of business will be to expand from the 7 Catholic Big East schools forming the core group of the new league, with Butler and Xavier regarded as locks to join in 2013. The 10 team still looks like Creighton, although Dayton is getting some support. The overall plan will be to eventually expand to 12 teams. Dayton would be in that mix, but so would Saint Louis and Georgetown is making a strong push for Richmond."
http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=5803
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03-15-2013, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_NY
If. . .
I think the "If" is pretty big right now. The last 10 years have not done us any favors.
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I think the last 10 years have less impact on the decision than some think. Once you get past Xavier and Butler, it isn't the driving force. And even with those two, it isn't.
Emphasis on basketball and TV market is the driver even with those two. That, resources to compete and georgraphy are driving the final cuts.
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03-15-2013, 11:22 AM
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@SIPeteThamel
Presidents and athletic officials at Xavier and Butler left A-10 meetings this am. No announcement expected, but they are gone.
@SIPeteThamel
The Xavier and Butler departures (without Dayton and SLU) mean that if the Catholic Seven go to 10 next year, Creighton had edge.
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03-15-2013, 11:39 AM
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I understand Creighton is a good program, but how does it fit in the Big "East"? Richmond, while not quite as prestigious, is a solid program and fits in geographically. Or VCU. St Louis is pretty far west as well.
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03-15-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDuke2003
I understand Creighton is a good program, but how does it fit in the Big "East"? Richmond, while not quite as prestigious, is a solid program and fits in geographically. Or VCU. St Louis is pretty far west as well.
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LOL geographical fits went out the window in this realignment business a long time ago. WVU in the big 12? LOL...nebraska in the big 10? it simply doesnt matter, geographically. unless you're somewhere way out west like gonzaga.
it wouldnt surprise me one bit to see g'town or someone on the east complain about the travel to creighton/ SLU eventually.
WVU already has with the big 12.
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03-15-2013, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
LOL geographical fits went out the window in this realignment business a long time ago. WVU in the big 12? LOL...nebraska in the big 10? it simply doesnt matter, geographically. unless you're somewhere way out west like gonzaga.
it wouldnt surprise me one bit to see g'town or someone on the east complain about the travel to creighton/SLU eventually.
WVU already has with the big 12.
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True, but difference is all teams in new BE will have to travel way out to Omaha in all sports.vs only WV doing the traveling in Big 12. There would a bunch of extra cost to all programs if Creighton is only out west.
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03-15-2013, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TA111
True, but difference is all teams in new BE will have to travel way out to Omaha in all sports.vs only WV doing the traveling in Big 12. There would a bunch of extra cost to all programs if Creighton is only out west.
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All the extra cost would be on Creighton's end. Doing it once for each sport every other year is not a big deal at all. Creighton doing it for every sport 8-10 times a year is a big deal.
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03-15-2013, 01:27 PM
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Seems like Marquette gets what it wants. Creighton, Marquette's Omaha branch campus, gets the nod. Now, will the Jesuits be even more bold and go for Richmond too?
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03-15-2013, 01:30 PM
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http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...decided/nWsLz/
I am surprised this hasn't been posted here yet. The thing that sticks out to me is this part:
Another UD official in the know said privately that should the league decide to begin play with 10 teams next season, not nine, Creighton most likely would be the 10th member. He said UD and Saint Louis could be added a year later unless “politics” comes into play.
That sounds like UD may or may not get in for 2014-15 season.
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03-15-2013, 02:00 PM
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Rumor- Dayton offering to pay entrance fee to join Big East in 2013. They don't want to get into bidding war with Richmond's $1B endowment.
dont know what this is about...but just passing it along
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03-15-2013, 02:06 PM
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From the beginning of all this I have felt that...
Originally Posted by The Gem
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...decided/nWsLz/
I am surprised this hasn't been posted here yet. The thing that sticks out to me is this part:
Another UD official in the know said privately that should the league decide to begin play with 10 teams next season, not nine, Creighton most likely would be the 10th member. He said UD and Saint Louis could be added a year later unless “politics” comes into play.
That sounds like UD may or may not get in for 2014-15 season.
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....geography works against us. Nothing we can do about that.
But, I think an eastern school will be selected that provides reasonable geographic balance.....e.g., Richmond.
For Dayton to make this group UD would need to be a "must have",....which is what TK often said, i.e., after the GMW debacle, whatever happened in the future he wanted Dayton to be a "must have".
Alas, we are not.
Over the last decade, when it comes to men's BB we have been in a sideways slide having a slight downward tilt.
I hope I'm wrong, of course,...but I fear that we're in for a pretty big jolt in a week or so.
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03-15-2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by The Gem
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...decided/nWsLz/
I am surprised this hasn't been posted here yet. The thing that sticks out to me is this part:
Another UD official in the know said privately that should the league decide to begin play with 10 teams next season, not nine, Creighton most likely would be the 10th member. He said UD and Saint Louis could be added a year later unless “politics” comes into play.
That sounds like UD may or may not get in for 2014-15 season.
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I read that article last night and it turned my stomach. I didn't even bother linking it. If Marquette shoves it's favorite into line in front of UD, then you know the power grab is on.
Once again, I am very comfortable if things are decided based on solid facts. I am not at all comfortable if deals are made by certain blocks for their own interests behind closed doors.
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03-15-2013, 02:06 PM
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All we need is a 1-armed reporter and Hollywood can turn this into a blockbuster movie!
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03-15-2013, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by TA111
True, but difference is all teams in new BE will have to travel way out to Omaha in all sports.vs only WV doing the traveling in Big 12. There would a bunch of extra cost to all programs if Creighton is only out west.
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Not to pick on you, but this made me laugh. Couldn't you just reverse it.
True, but difference is all teams in the Big 12 have to travel way out to WV in all sports, vs only Creighton doing the traveling in Big East.
Having one team WV or Creighton, geographically out of place in a conference is the same thing. No difference.
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03-15-2013, 02:13 PM
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Betch'a SLU isn't losing any sleep. Would you if you were a Jesuit school?
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03-15-2013, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
...Richmond's $1B endowment.
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I thought this file was interesting, this file lists the size of endowments from #1 all the way down to #839.
Richmond is #33 with a $1.88 billion endowment. UD is #164 with a $415 million endowment. Harvard is #1 at $32 billion.
http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/rese...tValues319.pdf
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03-15-2013, 02:23 PM
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From this morning's Trib. Makes it sound as if Creighton is definite.
Now, if next week they only announce the three schools for 13-14 and leave it at that, I don't like our chances at all. That will leave us twisting in the wind, and gives the people who are pushing hard for Richmond more time to grease the ways so they can slide their buddy into place in 14-15.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,7897661.story
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03-15-2013, 02:28 PM
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At some point, I've got to ask myself, why are the endowments so high? What is the end point of saving up all of that money?
Take for example, Richmond has the $1Bill endowment. IIRC, I read that they had about 3,000 students at any given time. If they took 5% from the endowment each year, then divided equally amongst their 3,000 undergrads per school year, that would break down to $31,333 per student.
If you assume a nicely run endowment should net more than 7% on average over time in investments, you get an endowment that could cover a good chunk of tuition costs for each student. Think about it, you could essentially turn your school into a "free" school for all students, then select the best of the best each year and limit your class size.
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03-15-2013, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bobber
From this morning's Trib. Makes it sound as if Creighton is definite.
Now, if next week they only announce the three schools for 13-14 and leave it at that, I don't like our chances at all. That will leave us twisting in the wind, and gives the people who are pushing hard for Richmond more time to grease they ways so they can slide their buddy into place in 14-15.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,7897661.story
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That article mentioned the A10, at a meeting of its schools today, possibly voting today to increase the A10's exit fee, and that may have been why Xavier and Butler left the A10 meeting. I'm sure the BE wants to avoid any new members having to pay any more exit fees than they already are.
This whole situation seems to be coming to a head, sure seems like this is all going to be resolved shortly. That article said an announcement should be made on Wednesday or Thursday of next week.
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03-15-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford
At some point, I've got to ask myself, why are the endowments so high? What is the end point of saving up all of that money?
Take for example, Richmond has the $1Bill endowment. IIRC, I read that they had about 3,000 students at any given time. If they took 5% from the endowment each year, then divided equally amongst their 3,000 undergrads per school year, that would break down to $31,333 per student.
If you assume a nicely run endowment should net more than 7% on average over time in investments, you get an endowment that could cover a good chunk of tuition costs for each student. Think about it, you could essentially turn your school into a "free" school for all students, then select the best of the best each year and limit your class size.
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Richmond is very affordable because of their endowment which, by the way, came from the Robins (sp) family of pharmaceutical fame. They gave something like 60 million to the school back in the 1950s-60s and it has grown significantly.
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03-15-2013, 02:38 PM
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If we are not working both sides of this issue, we are wrong.
We need to be posturing to join the C7, but we need to be working overtime with Bernie McGlade to target schools for A-10 expansion. We need to be on the phone with other mid-majors that aren't potential A-10 targtets (Wichita State, New Mexico, St Mary's) and develop home-home scheduling agreements that will benefit everyone from an RPI standpoint.
The bottom line is we need to be proactive, not reactive. If we are sitting and hoping, we are screwed.
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03-15-2013, 02:54 PM
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All of this turmoil that has just come to light in a matter of days, to me, has all the earmarks of a power grab by schools who see this as a chance to reward their friends and punish those who are not their friends, Chicago-style. There's money on the table. "Where's mine?"
They've had six month to sift carefully through this matter. And now --suddenly-- we're at the edge and new schools are emerging for no other reason than they have a champion or voting bloc pushing for their inclusion behind closed doors.
It's all politics.
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03-15-2013, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick
If we are not working both sides of this issue, we are wrong.
We need to be posturing to join the C7, but we need to be working overtime with Bernie McGlade to target schools for A-10 expansion. We need to be on the phone with other mid-majors that aren't potential A-10 targtets (Wichita State, New Mexico, St Mary's) and develop home-home scheduling agreements that will benefit everyone from an RPI standpoint.
The bottom line is we need to be proactive, not reactive. If we are sitting and hoping, we are screwed.
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THIS. I agree 100%. Quite frankly I am a littler perturbed that there does not seem to be any movement by the A10.
Perhaps I am naive to think McGlade may be sitting on her hands, but there are plenty of good replacements out there and I don't see why she wouldn't be on the phone already trying to sure up the A10's future.
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03-15-2013, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
THIS. I agree 100%. Quite frankly I am a littler perturbed that there does not seem to be any movement by the A10.
Perhaps I am naive to think McGlade may be sitting on her hands, but there are plenty of good replacements out there and I don't see why she wouldn't be on the phone already trying to sure up the A10's future.
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theres no question she probably is...at least has a short list of names...but at this point she's probably trying to figure who for sure is leaving and when. can't do much if you don't know that.
i think she's probably well aware that butler,x are for sure gone. but outside of that, who else, and when?
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03-15-2013, 03:03 PM
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Not sure how you can think McGlade is not proactive after she brought in Butler and VCU. I'm sure she is on top of things.
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03-15-2013, 03:08 PM
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Please read this article.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/col.../?sct=uk_wr_a1
Why I hate elitists and politics. And the irony is not lost on me that these are "jesuit" schools. Marquette will get Creighton. Georgetown doesn't want VCU..but they do want Richmond.
St Louis (Jesuit) will be a no-brainer with Creighton aboard. Georgetown will likely get Richmond (politics) or we have a shot.
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03-15-2013, 03:17 PM
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First it was Fox and money driving the decision...
Now it's politics and elitists....
And I don't have a problem with either as each give us a better shot at a C7/BE invitation than the recent history and records of our men's basketball team.
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03-15-2013, 03:20 PM
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Not true.
Fox and money? yes
Politics and elitists? no
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03-15-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerinChicago
Please read this article.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/col.../?sct=uk_wr_a1
Why I hate elitists and politics. And the irony is not lost on me that these are "jesuit" schools. Marquette will get Creighton. Georgetown doesn't want VCU..but they do want Richmond.
St Louis (Jesuit) will be a no-brainer with Creighton aboard. Georgetown will likely get Richmond (politics) or we have a shot.
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That article would seem to be a strike against Richmond since Richmond is located in the same town as VCU, yet the rumor seems to be that Georgetown is lobbying for Richmond's inclusion:
"While Georgetown's fingerprints are obvious, a big test of Georgetown's power will be whether or not VCU joins the league in the next wave of expansion. While Georgetown hasn't lobbied against VCU in meetings, television sources say that the Hoyas don't want VCU in the league. (The prevailing thought being that VCU is too close geographically for Georgetown's comfort and being a public school doesn't fit the profile.) Many schools in the Catholic Seven are enamored with VCU, especially because the league's bottom four teams -- Providence, DePaul, Seton Hall and St. John's -- have combined to win just one NCAA tournament game in the last 10 years."
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03-15-2013, 03:25 PM
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I read earlier today that Georgetown's Jack DeGioia is part of the US delegation which will attend Pope Francis's installation Mass.
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03-15-2013, 04:02 PM
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Careful what you wish for....
....you just might get it.
If we're "in" all Priders will be elated,....and if we're not, we'll all be dejected. Include me in that group.
I think we're "not". Know what? That might not be all bad. Anyone thinking that UD would be considered an "equal" sitting the table with the likes of Georgetown Villanova, Marquette,...is dreaming.
For sure, we'd be considered the undeserving school from the other side of the tracks....for a long, long time.
So. assuming we're "not in", it makes great sense to make every possible effort to do the very best we can to improve ourselves and the A10. Butler mananged very well, thank you very much, playing for years in a league that we turn up our noses at.
If we manage to improve our program enough to dominate the "new" A10,...no small trick,...Dayton is likely to be far better off and likely to appear in many more NCAAs than if we're perpetually in the bottom half of the "new" BE. And there is at least a 50-50 chance that's exactly where we'd be.
Bottom line: So, we're not in. What to do? Work like hell with McGlade to ensure that replacements are the best possible...and that the A10 bottom dwellers are held to a higher standard.
We won't have as much money. But, money was never an issue for men's BB anyway...and the rest of the athletics program is in good shape.
Without significant improvement UD will struggle to be among the top one of two teams in the "new" A10 on a regular basis.
It's time to get to work and make that happen, finally. Rejection may be the wake up call Dayton needs. It was once before when the GMW threw us overboard..and we became much better because of it. Why not now?
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03-15-2013, 04:23 PM
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I wish the reporters and blogs would just zip it and wait for a press conference. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. The rush to be the first to report has now trumped the urge to be succinct and correct. Its been this way for the last few years.
All of this work and effort and jockeying so you can say you told the world 87 seconds before the rest of the world found out. Nobody has stuck to a story from the beginning. They report every possible outcome, then when things finally happen, they will say "I told you so."
Here's what I know: UD hasn't told me anything and they don't plan to, until something public is announced. How many reporters or bloggers ever say, "I have no idea"? Everyone wants to think they know everything about everything and that's the problem.
Nothing anyone can do to alter the path of this train, so don't get worked up over it. You are mere passengers. So, enjoy the nice view out the window before the sun sets, rather than argue with the train conductor about the rail time tables. It will make your evening far more pleasant.
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03-15-2013, 04:28 PM
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Being in could be a bad thing. Because some could interpret all is fine. Being rejected could lead to what do we need to do. My guess though is it gets chalked up to factors out of "our" control and nothing changes.
Being out isn't the WMD of the world. Gonzaga will still continue to play in an inferior conference even though the have made it widely known they would prefer to play elsewhere. You can be what you want to be be without being in.
I think the SI article is a plus an minus to being in. Appears there could be a Georgetown backlash and UD could be a compromise. But who knows. What I think is what matters in slots 10 to 12 (if there is 12) has little to do with basketball wins and losses.
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03-15-2013, 06:38 PM
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I wonder if Temple is excited about their decision to move?
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03-15-2013, 09:28 PM
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A10 realognment....
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03-15-2013, 10:58 PM
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03-15-2013, 11:13 PM
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Interesting. This article says "several" AD's and Presidents left the A-10 meeting. The article UAC posted said Xavier and Butler officials left. To me "several" is more than two. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
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03-16-2013, 12:01 AM
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Creighton in according to the Omaha newspaper.
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03-16-2013, 12:06 AM
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03-16-2013, 12:36 AM
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from the article...
"Yet it’s also poised to lose three marquee programs this year – Temple, Butler and Xavier — and two more next year — St. Louis and Dayton."
lets hope
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03-16-2013, 12:56 AM
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Nail in the coffin?
If Creighton gets in and we don't it will be due to (1) their great attendance, and (2) their consistent NCAA appearances. As it has been commented on ... TV appeal trumps all else.
Likewise, if we don't get in at all! ... Well, our dismal season pretty much sealed our fate. I don't think it is fair to AM, but many things in life are not.
Frankly, all the talk about the A10 being a better answer, well, I despise this. I loved the GMW because we got to see very good teams come here. This is far from the case now and with larger conference realignments, it will get even worse. I don't want to be the "king" of our downtrodden conference, want to try to recruit high D1 recruits, and try to win some important games. If you notice, we often play down to weaker opponents, but get charged up (team and fans) when a Pitt or X come in. Pay a lot for some pretty mediocre competition. We only sell out 4-5 games a year (at best with quite a few seats still empty) NOT the regular sellouts as advertised. Would seats be available if top notch games were played?
I'm getting older ... and more wishful for the 50s and 60s!!!!!
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03-16-2013, 01:02 AM
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This Andy Katz tweet has me nervous:
The new Big East is making the right move going to just 10 teams. That's the perfect basketball number. Round robin. 18 league games
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Are they going to 10 and staying there for the long run or is it a one year situation? If its a long term 10 team league, we are toast
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03-16-2013, 01:21 AM
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Folks,
Like you, I'm watching every Tweet, blog, message board, and internet flotsam for any hint that we're in. Agreed that after yesterday's teaser from the Post, today's return to uncertainty has been soul crushing. This will all play out in the near future, but wanted to post this as a glimmer of hope on an otherwise morose message thread:
From Holy Land of Hoops message board, posted by Bostonfriar (guy who seems to have some connections at Providence):
Re: Creighton or Dayton for #10?
by bostonfriar » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:22 am
12 is the number, 10 for 2013 and 12 for 2014. AD's would like 10 to have an 18 game conference schedule and 12 OOC. Fox wants 12 for programming reason. Fox is paying the money that makes the league viable so IMO they will win out. Fox is reported to be willing to up the $500M to $600M to keep the individual school annual amount at $4.1M with 12 teams.
Butler, X and Creighton in 2013, StL and Dayton in 2014.
Its a negotiation between FFox and Big East and between the 7 current Big East schools regarding who is added.
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http://holylandofhoops.com/viewtopic...bdc767e128692a
OBTW, don't be spooked by the response immediately below that, it's merely an opinion based on the ajerseyguy post where he mentions the Georgetown push for Richmond.
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03-16-2013, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by skip69
Would seats be available if top notch games were played?
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If UD was 4-12 or 6-10 in the league every year, yes.
UD has never had a league problem. And if they stay in the A10, they will not have a league problem. They have a competitiveness problem. That crosses all boundaries. Simply switching leagues will change nothing in its own vacuum. And predicting certain things to happen merely based on a league switch is wishful thinking. South Florida and DePaul fans would love to talk to UD fans about why a league change is far less important than your overall program health. Neither school has met the same highs since they left C-USA, in part, because the competition is much stiffer.
If UD moves to the Big East, I think it has a lot of things going for it. But it has a ton of pitfalls too. If UD gets in that league, I see the odds of stepping up and pounding opponents about 50/50 with continuing to swim in mediocrity. Its a coin toss. What we know is this: we aren't competitive in the league we're in. We can't even ride the bike without training wheels and we're expecting to conquer the Nurburgring on a Hayabusa.
If we remain in locked arms with SLU, VCU, SJU, Richmond, etc, we're still viable. I see very little difference in fighting for 5 bids in a 12 team Big East vs fighting for 2-3 bids in a 12 team league thats much weaker.
Purely in a vacuum, I wanted the C7 to get absorbed into the A10, but Butler and XU had no interest whatsoever in continuing to play A10 teams. I misjudged their commitment to the league.
And in a vacuum Id like to see UD remain aligned with XU, SLU, Butler, and the likes of Georgetown, etc. and we raise our game and become a 26-6 program every year and 12-4 conference team every year and a #6-7 seed in the NCAAs every year. But there's really nothing to suggest that will ever happen even if we're provided the opportunity.
Murray State goes to the NCAAs almost every season. They play in an inferior league. I doubt their fan base would trade a better league for considerably fewer NCAA appearances.
We need to get to the NCAAs far more regularly. Im for any plan or approach that achieves that goal. And I dont care if its stronger league or weaker league. Id prefer a stronger league. But it may not be possible in a stronger league because it hasnt been doable in the existing A10.
What is possible and what is practical are two entirely different sets of realities. Philosophically I want the best of everything. But we're not dealing in philosophicals.
This program is what it is, and others are treating it based on those facts. We deserve no more or no less than what our resume' suggests.
We can start 100 new topics on league shuffling, transfers, league records, bad bounces, losses by 3pts or less, market demographics, facilities, fan bases, Arbitron ratings, and the plethora of moving screens.
Jimmys and Joes: thats all it ultimately comes down to. Everything else is window dressing. And, everything else ultimately takes care of itself if you bring in enough quality players.
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03-16-2013, 02:19 AM
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Only 10 for BE in 2013-2014: X, Butler, and Creighton
"The new Big East will have only 10 members in 2013-14 and then will take an approach to future expansion, sources with knowledge of the situation told ESPN's Andy Katz."
Sounds like the uncertainty over UD's future could continue for all of next season or even longer.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...ording-sources
Edit: If the BE stops at 10, I could see SLU leaving the A10 and taking Creighton's spot in the MVC.
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03-16-2013, 02:32 AM
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Great post, Chris..
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03-16-2013, 02:35 AM
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UD2
Edit: If the BE stops at 10, I could see SLU leaving the A10 and taking Creighton's spot in the MVC.[/QUOTE]
Ouch!!
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03-16-2013, 07:25 AM
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The crawl at the bottom of ESPN's telecast this morning indicates Creighton will join Xavier and Butler next year.
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03-16-2013, 08:31 AM
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I don't like our chances at all to get in the new BE. With Creighton getting in, I think that pretty much sealed our fate. If, and that's a big if, the league decides to expand down the road I believe St. Louis is in a great position for a spot. The league will want 6 western division teams and 6 eastern schools ( currently 5 and 5) So geographically they will pair up BU-X, Depaul-MU and Creighton-STL. and add another eastern school like Richmond/VCU. Don't expect any help from X as they did when they helped us get into the A10. It was in their best interest to bring as along as their geographic partner because at the time X-UD were the furthest west teams in the league. I don't think its our poor performance on the court that is hurting us as much as where our court is located.
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03-16-2013, 08:41 AM
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If SLU thought that had any chance at being added in '14 (which they clearly do) why would they leave the A10 for one season?
Likewise, why would the MVC add SLU for what might be only one season?
I think SLU and UD will remain in the A10 during this purgatory year, which will help the A10 fight through this difficult transition. Going all the way down to 10 schools in one off-season would be a nightmare for the A10.
EDIT: I guess the real concern is that if the BE stays at 10 for good the A10 will likely lose SLU to the MVC. Though even if that happens, a 10 team BE would be only marginally better than a revamped A10 on the court (if at all).
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03-16-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rasta man
This Andy Katz tweet has me nervous:
Are they going to 10 and staying there for the long run or is it a one year situation? If its a long term 10 team league, we are toast
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If they stay at 10 they are in trouble because they are looking at max 5 tourney teams for the foreseeable future and probably 4. Seton Hall, St. John's, DePaul and Providence are perennial no shows. That leaves 6 teams left to get auto berths and they will have beaten each other up during conference play.
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03-16-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R
If UD was 4-12 or 6-10 in the league every year, yes.
UD has never had a league problem. And if they stay in the A10, they will not have a league problem. They have a competitiveness problem. That crosses all boundaries. Simply switching leagues will change nothing in its own vacuum. And predicting certain things to happen merely based on a league switch is wishful thinking. South Florida and DePaul fans would love to talk to UD fans about why a league change is far less important than your overall program health. Neither school has met the same highs since they left C-USA, in part, because the competition is much stiffer.
If UD moves to the Big East, I think it has a lot of things going for it. But it has a ton of pitfalls too. If UD gets in that league, I see the odds of stepping up and pounding opponents about 50/50 with continuing to swim in mediocrity. Its a coin toss. What we know is this: we aren't competitive in the league we're in. We can't even ride the bike without training wheels and we're expecting to conquer the Nurburgring on a Hayabusa.
If we remain in locked arms with SLU, VCU, SJU, Richmond, etc, we're still viable. I see very little difference in fighting for 5 bids in a 12 team Big East vs fighting for 2-3 bids in a 12 team league thats much weaker.
Purely in a vacuum, I wanted the C7 to get absorbed into the A10, but Butler and XU had no interest whatsoever in continuing to play A10 teams. I misjudged their commitment to the league.
And in a vacuum Id like to see UD remain aligned with XU, SLU, Butler, and the likes of Georgetown, etc. and we raise our game and become a 26-6 program every year and 12-4 conference team every year and a #6-7 seed in the NCAAs every year. But there's really nothing to suggest that will ever happen even if we're provided the opportunity.
Murray State goes to the NCAAs almost every season. They play in an inferior league. I doubt their fan base would trade a better league for considerably fewer NCAA appearances.
We need to get to the NCAAs far more regularly. Im for any plan or approach that achieves that goal. And I dont care if its stronger league or weaker league. Id prefer a stronger league. But it may not be possible in a stronger league because it hasnt been doable in the existing A10.
What is possible and what is practical are two entirely different sets of realities. Philosophically I want the best of everything. But we're not dealing in philosophicals.
This program is what it is, and others are treating it based on those facts. We deserve no more or no less than what our resume' suggests.
We can start 100 new topics on league shuffling, transfers, league records, bad bounces, losses by 3pts or less, market demographics, facilities, fan bases, Arbitron ratings, and the plethora of moving screens.
Jimmys and Joes: thats all it ultimately comes down to. Everything else is window dressing. And, everything else ultimately takes care of itself if you bring in enough quality players.
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Chris,
Everything you say is true. I would argue that not many posters on this board are assuming membership in the New Big East will automatically end the frustration that has been perpetual mediocrity. I am quite sure nearly all of us would agree that becoming a bottom feeder in the Big East would be no more preferable than the program's current state.
Of course, admission to the Big East is a game changer in many ways. AM has already shown himself to be a promising recruiter. The prestige of the Big East will increase the size of his targeted recruitment pool. From a spectator point of view the difference will be huge.(I suspect living in Ohio will no longer be an obstacle to watching games I cannot attend). I agree the probability of being invited to the NCAA tournament does not necessarily become greater just because we are in the Big East. But, a Big East UD that is regularly in the NCAA tournament is a different animal than an A10 UD that is a regular participant. (Albeit, either seems like a distant dream from our current perspective).
In summary, I agree there is no guarantee that this perpetual mediocrity ends no matter what UD's future conference affiliation might be. I like our chances far more in the future Big East however. In the end, the current Big East/A10 tumult may bring about the changes we desire no matter what. If UD does not get into the New Big East there is little doubt it will create tremendous dissatisfaction in the UD fan base. In such an environment I believe the administration will be much less tolerant of the mediocrity we have experienced over the last several decades.
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03-16-2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by purpieschu
If UD does not get into the New Big East there is little doubt it will create tremendous dissatisfaction in the UD fan base. In such an environment I believe the administration will be much less tolerant of the mediocrity we have experienced over the last several decades.
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hahaha unless people stop showing to games...it won't matter.
then again if it ends up being x,butler, slu, richmond leaving when all said and done in the future
depending on who they replace those teams with maybe people grow tired of the games we get at the arena and stop showing?
otherwise its business as usual, measly buy games, with a even weaker conference schedule with increased ticket prices every few years.
a few people noted that this year it looked like students would only show up for some of the bigger games, (butler/x) and other games they were dismal. well...we get left in a depleted a-10 with our rival gone...expect that to be the norm from here on out.
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03-16-2013, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by purpieschu
I would argue that not many posters on this board are assuming membership in the New Big East will automatically end the frustration that has been perpetual mediocrity. I am quite sure nearly all of us would agree that becoming a bottom feeder in the Big East would be no more preferable than the program's current state.
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I posed this poll months ago:
http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22592
And 4/5 posters here think a move to the Big East will make it easier for us to make the NCAA tournament...meaning the expectations will be higher for our program if/when we make the move.
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03-16-2013, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
hahaha unless people stop showing to games...it won't matter.
then again if it ends up being x,butler, slu, richmond leaving when all said and done in the future
depending on who they replace those teams with maybe people grow tired of the games we get at the arena and stop showing?
otherwise its business as usual, measly buy games, with a even weaker conference schedule with increased ticket prices every few years.
a few people noted that this year it looked like students would only show up for some of the bigger games, (butler/x) and other games they were dismal. well...we get left in a depleted a-10 with our rival gone...expect that to be the norm from here on out.
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If we win, the fans will show up regardless of Conference affiliation. Look at the UD Arena history. The only dip they've seen in attendance occurred under O'Brien, and even then it was over 10,000.
If we stay in the A10 and win, all will be good.
If we move to the C7/BE and lose, the students will stay home and the townies will show up.
If we stay in the A10 and lose, students will stay home and townies will buy tickets but stay home.
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03-16-2013, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by skip69
If Creighton gets in and we don't it will be due to (1) their great attendance, and (2) their consistent NCAA appearances.
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The fact that the Creighton President is on the Marquette Board of Trustees won't have anything to do with it?
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Makes it tough for McGlade...
If the A10 knew that loss of XU and BU ended it, the league could backfill and move on. Not knowing if/when the BE will go after one or more A10 schools creates uncertainty that hampers A10 expansion.
Suppose you are a Bradley, Valpo, Detroit,...whomever,.....and the A10 expresses interest. But, you know there is a possibility that SLU and UD will leave the next year. Seems to me that would matter a lot.
The A10 needs to add midwest schools...but the candidates don't want to find themselves alone in a year or two.
The BE may decide to go to 12,...but I don't think that will help Dayton. Should SLU jump to the MVC; that would help UD. Otherwise, I think SLU is preferable to UD...and another eastern school will be added to provide balance.
Flyer fans would be best turning their attention to how the A10 will respond and recover. We are not going to part of this.
Complicating matters is the loss in future years of UNCC, Temple, UMass. No doubt McGlade has a list of potential replacements. But, the fact is that as far as BB is concerned, what really matters most is how UD performs on the court in the A10....as has been the case throughout the decade we just lost.
Even the money difference matters little. But, the loss of an opportunity for a huge lift in institutional prestige matters greatly...and I'll bet is what stings Dan Curran the most.
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03-16-2013, 10:58 AM
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We're cooked
If the P Hamel article in SI.com yesterday is correct about the Georgetown President running the negotiations for the CBE7 schools, then we are DEAD as far as this league is concerned. In my line of work, I have dealt with G-Town folks. There is a true arrogance there - even toward their own kind. They see themselves as the "Catholic" Ivy League school and Duke, Harvard, Penn, and Stanford are the schools they travel with in doing admissions visits to cities in the fall each year. You think ND folks are full of themselves? G-Town people are right there with them.
Our only hope would be for the also-rans like St. John's, DePaul, Providence, and Seton Hall (our ilk) to dig their heels in and resist being steamrolled in the process and want us as a non-Jesuit ally in league decision-making. Can't count on XU and Butler because they're just happy to get in on the gravy-train.
When I read Hamel's article yesterday about G-Town, I knew we were finished (or another word that begins with the letter "F").
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Originally Posted by rollo
If we win, the fans will show up regardless of Conference affiliation. Look at the UD Arena history. The only dip they've seen in attendance occurred under O'Brien, and even then it was over 10,000.
If we stay in the A10 and win, all will be good.
If we move to the C7/BE and lose, the students will stay home and the townies will show up.
If we stay in the A10 and lose, students will stay home and townies will buy tickets but stay home.
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I believe the days of loyal fans showing up regardless of the product are coming closer to and end. Actual attendance was down in the arena this year. It will take time for that to filter into the lower arena, but you can see the defections in the upper arena. So, the days of 12,000 fans showing up for bad games are less likely to happen. I can see attendance closer to 9,000 a game as possibility in the near future. That is still good attendance, but not for an arena that holds 13,400 and a fan base that craves great basketball. It can also mean revenue hit for a program that has one of the highest margins in the country (according to the web site listed before.)
I have heard from a few lower arena fans who are seriously considering dumping their tickets. There were significant prices increases each of the last two years which seems to be factoring into their thinking.
This means getting into the Big East and being competitive has to be very important to the administration. Not just one but both.
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03-16-2013, 11:11 AM
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i guess if we want to look at this recent news more positively...
the original report a few weeks ago stated it would be butler,x, and likely creighton in '13 with dayton/ slu in '14. in between that time we had richmond popping up, dayton potentially #10 for '13..along with whatever else.
well the first part of that original report seems to have panned out. so i guess theres hope the 2nd part pans out as well?
honestly though its hard not to think negatively. seems theres more working against us than for us.
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03-16-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by purpieschu
Chris,
Everything you say is true. I would argue that not many posters on this board are assuming membership in the New Big East will automatically end the frustration that has been perpetual mediocrity. I am quite sure nearly all of us would agree that becoming a bottom feeder in the Big East would be no more preferable than the program's current state.
Of course, admission to the Big East is a game changer in many ways. AM has already shown himself to be a promising recruiter. The prestige of the Big East will increase the size of his targeted recruitment pool. From a spectator point of view the difference will be huge.(I suspect living in Ohio will no longer be an obstacle to watching games I cannot attend). I agree the probability of being invited to the NCAA tournament does not necessarily become greater just because we are in the Big East. But, a Big East UD that is regularly in the NCAA tournament is a different animal than an A10 UD that is a regular participant. (Albeit, either seems like a distant dream from our current perspective).
In summary, I agree there is no guarantee that this perpetual mediocrity ends no matter what UD's future conference affiliation might be. I like our chances far more in the future Big East however. In the end, the current Big East/A10 tumult may bring about the changes we desire no matter what. If UD does not get into the New Big East there is little doubt it will create tremendous dissatisfaction in the UD fan base. In such an environment I believe the administration will be much less tolerant of the mediocrity we have experienced over the last several decades.
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The last thing that this fanbase wants to see is UD missing the BE reformation and then trying to put a happy face on a crappier schedule, less bargaining power when scheduling, less status among our peers, less television opportunity, less league money, no network affiliation, etc.
I don't care if it is mathematically eaiser for us to get an auto-bid to the NCAA in the Horizon League. It's a downward trend, IMO.
This inclusion was supposed to be aim of the decade-long project of improving the entire athletic department. It's goal was to make us more attractive for a big-time league re-organization. Let us not move the goalposts if we miss.
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03-16-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan
I have heard from a few lower arena fans who are seriously considering dumping their tickets. There were significant prices increases each of the last two years which seems to be factoring into their thinking.
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I'm one of them...but odds are that my love for UD will prevent me from dumping them...but more likely will lead to me splitting my seats with multiple friends...while keeping them in my name in case we ever get back to being a top 25/NCAA tournament caliber team.
Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan
This means getting into the Big East and being competitive has to be very important to the administration. Not just one but both .
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Nothing will breath life back to this program than a C7/BE invite. But it'll only be temporary....3 or 4 years in the cellar will make us all miserable.
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03-16-2013, 11:30 AM
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There is no way this program has any future success of note without going to this new BE. We may make a tourny or 2 but that's it. Our recruiting will suffer and most importantly our famed home court advantage will take a huge hit. What do you think joining the Horizon or staying on a watered down A10 will do to ticket sales? It will crush them. Guys like us don't matter we show up no matter what but we make up MAYBE 5% of the crowd. The other 95% are going to be hard to convince that that game in march versus Duquesne is a big deal. What will we be selling season tickets off of? I random visit by New Mexico? If we get left out of this league our program will become just like another UD...Detriot.
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03-16-2013, 11:33 AM
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And yes we may linger near the bottom of the new BE but with the money it will bring in at the very least I can see our other sports benifiting greatly. I would rather be near the bottom of the BE initially than near the top of some rinky dink conference. It's all about the ceiling to me.
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03-16-2013, 12:34 PM
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Why on Earth is the Horizon League being mentioned over and over? I don't see any scenario where we end up there.
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03-16-2013, 12:36 PM
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Both of you....
Originally Posted by Flyer_Tom
There is no way this program has any future success of note without going to this new BE. We may make a tourny or 2 but that's it. Our recruiting will suffer and most importantly our famed home court advantage will take a huge hit. What do you think joining the Horizon or staying on a watered down A10 will do to ticket sales? It will crush them. Guys like us don't matter we show up no matter what but we make up MAYBE 5% of the crowd. The other 95% are going to be hard to convince that that game in march versus Duquesne is a big deal. What will we be selling season tickets off of? I random visit by New Mexico? If we get left out of this league our program will become just like another UD...Detriot.
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Originally Posted by Flyer_Tom
And yes we may linger near the bottom of the new BE but with the money it will bring in at the very least I can see our other sports benifiting greatly. I would rather be near the bottom of the BE initially than near the top of some rinky dink conference. It's all about the ceiling to me.
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....sound as if you think UD still has a chance to enter the new BE,...in 2014/2015? A chance, maybe....like about 10%.
But, has being in a relatively weak conference hampered Butler or Gonzaga? They have achieved success we can't even imagine.
As for recruiting.....joinning the BE would have aided recruiting. But, I don't see why not being in will hamper recruiting. We haven't been in the BE. our recruiting should be about the same as it's been.
Coaching stability? That takes a hit. The HC job in the new BE is a destination job....the UD job is not.
In my opinion, I still think the biggest hit UD takes by being snubbed is in the area of institutional prestiege.
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03-16-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
Why on Earth is the Horizon League being mentioned over and over? I don't see any scenario where we end up there.
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Perhaps, but without X, Butler, SLU, Temple, and possibly others, the new Atlantic 10 might as well be the Horizon League...
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03-16-2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
If SLU thought that had any chance at being added in '14 (which they clearly do) why would they leave the A10 for one season?
Likewise, why would the MVC add SLU for what might be only one season?
I think SLU and UD will remain in the A10 during this purgatory year, which will help the A10 fight through this difficult transition. Going all the way down to 10 schools in one off-season would be a nightmare for the A10.
EDIT: I guess the real concern is that if the BE stays at 10 for good the A10 will likely lose SLU to the MVC. Though even if that happens, a 10 team BE would be only marginally better than a revamped A10 on the court (if at all).
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My post was directed at the possibility of SLU leaving for the MVC at some point in the future if the BE stays at 10. I agree that I don't see SLU leaving the A10 after this season.
Originally Posted by UACFlyer
Even the money difference matters little. But, the loss of an opportunity for a huge lift in institutional prestige matters greatly...and I'll bet is what stings Dan Curran the most.
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I think losing $3 million/year or $4 million/year matters a lot, but I do agree that the most important thing is on court performance.
Originally Posted by purpieschu
But, a Big East UD that is regularly in the NCAA tournament is a different animal than an A10 UD that is a regular participant. (Albeit, either seems like a distant dream from our current perspective).
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I agree, a BE UD that is a NCAA regular is a lot different than an A10 UD that is a NCAA regular.
Overall, I am going to remain positive and put on a smile about the possibility of UD not getting into the BE. Yes, attendance/energy around the program may decrease, but I am optimistic that UD stands a good chance of getting into the NCAA tournament more often by being a member of a weakened BE.
This whole thing may turn out to work in UD's favor somewhat. Gonzaga, Memphis, Butler, etc. did fine in weaker leagues.
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03-16-2013, 01:31 PM
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It's obvious that our lack of NCAA wins is keeping us out of the initial group of invites, however, with our facility, support and tradition, we should be able to overcome any question and be a member of this league. If we don't get into the Big East, I can't think of a bigger failure for this school and program. They tout we have the best fans, we host the first four and NCAA tournament. Long tradition....if we can't get in, I will cut ties with the program. Especially if a Richmond gets in over us? Are you kidding? I'll be done.
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03-16-2013, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
Even the money difference matters little. But, the loss of an opportunity for a huge lift in institutional prestige matters greatly...and I'll bet is what stings Dan Curran the most.
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Who knows UAC, UD may be able to recoup some/or a good portion of the $3-$4 million by appearing in the NCAA tournament more often as a member of the A10.
I think UD is going to be ok regardless of whether they get in the BE or not.
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03-16-2013, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
Why on Earth is the Horizon League being mentioned over and over? I don't see any scenario where we end up there.
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Not so fast my friend, don't think we can rule out any scenario at this point. I truly believe UD's plan B is to be the tourney host of which ever conference they are in if plan A of joining the New Big East does not work out.
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03-16-2013, 01:54 PM
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so let me get this straight on why they might wait to add 2 more in '14 than everyone at once:
1. they want to minimize the cost of teams exit fees (seems unlikely seeing as UD and SLU would gladly pay)
2. they are being nice to the A-10 as to not raid the A-10 of 4 teams right away, giving the A-10 time to adjust/plan ahead (this seems unlikely as well...what does the BE care about the A-10?)
3. the presidents aren't exactly sure who else they want to add yet, they'll stick with 10 for a year and try to determine who they might want to add in a year (possible to very possible)
4. similar to #3, they want to try just 10 teams next year, and if they feel confident with that they'll just stick with it. (very possible)
anything else anyone can think of?
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03-16-2013, 02:12 PM
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They want a league, quick and dirty, and ten is about right for that. But Fox needs more product than ten can deliver, so they'll go to twelve in 14-15.
Just my opinion.
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03-16-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bobber
They want a league, quick and dirty, and ten is about right for that. But Fox needs more product than ten can deliver, so they'll go to twelve in 14-15.
Just my opinion.
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but why not add everyone at once...especially if they know dayton/ slu are the ones?
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03-16-2013, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Buster Goode
It's obvious that our lack of NCAA wins is keeping us out of the initial group of invites, however, with our facility, support and tradition, we should be able to overcome any question and be a member of this league. If we don't get into the Big East, I can't think of a bigger failure for this school and program. They tout we have the best fans, we host the first four and NCAA tournament. Long tradition....if we can't get in, I will cut ties with the program. Especially if a Richmond gets in over us? Are you kidding? I'll be done.
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If Ricmond or SLU are chosen the selection has nothing to do with NCAA wins. The only two that are selected on that basis are X and Butler. And they also met all the other criteria. The rest os driven by politics, TV, footprint and money.
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03-16-2013, 02:26 PM
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Everything is mere speculation at this point, especially since nothing substantiated the NY Post article that got everyone excited.
Folks are crazy if they think UD will be fine if not accepted into the BE. Our recruiting will tumble. Any A10 school or others that get in will have the upper hand on the top recruits that UD even looks at. It is a no brainer for a recruit.
If UD doesn't make it, the program will sidestep. Any additions to the A10 post BE decision, will not make the A10 stronger, as many of those schools are unproven part timers in the NCAA that have had a few good years overall.
I don't think for a minute that there is anything in the BE's playbook that places consideration to the decimation of the A10 and in what time frame. They want money and will make the decisions to get it. Who cares if a exit fee is more or less. Those fees will be paid in full with any new revenue from the BE.
If we are stuck in the A10, we will be the equivalent of an overconfident Horizon league team that lives in an environment of 12k per game and has overwhelming support for a team that doesn't meet or exceed the standards of its peers.
People say they would rather be the big fish in a mediocre conference than be a bottom dweller in the BE. Seriously? What gives any of you any indication that a transfer of talent away from the A10 will guarantee that UD even becomes the top of the A10 without Butler, X, etc? Hell, if we have to be a bottom dweller, it might as well be to the tune of 3+ million per year with better talent coming into UD arena.
Smoke and mirrors if anyone thinks the A10 will be fine with additions from other mid majors to equate to the BE or the current A10. This is bigger than RPI's, schedules, etc. This is about money and the ability to bring in the best player possible. Not being included in the BE reduces revenue and the ability to bring in the best player. Without that, get used to what we have witnessed for the last 20 years.
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03-16-2013, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
but why not add everyone at once...especially if they know dayton/slu are the ones?
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Dayton and Saint Louis are not the ones, yet. They would prefer more good basketball teams. It is about basketball first.
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03-16-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
If Ricmond or SLU are chosen the selection has nothing to do with NCAA wins. The only two that are selected on that basis are X and Butler. And they also met all the other criteria. The rest os driven by politics, TV, footprint and money.
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Or appearances for that matter. UD has made 14 trips. SLU 6 and I believe Richmond 8 or 9. Plus we know appearances must mean nothing because SJU would be at the top of the list with Xavier.
Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer
Perhaps, but without X, Butler, SLU, Temple, and possibly others, the new Atlantic 10 might as well be the Horizon League...
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Huh? Dayton, VCU, SJU, UMASS, and many of the potential additions are better than anything the Horizon League has to offer (outside of maybe Valpo).
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03-16-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_NY
Dayton and Saint Louis are not the ones, yet. They would prefer more good basketball teams. It is about basketball first.
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SLU isnt good at basketball? you live under a rock?
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03-16-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
....geography works against us. Nothing we can do about that.
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That's one side of the coin, but I still prefer Pete Gillen's perspective:
Pete Gillen has followed the developments and has a unique perspective as a former coach for one of the Catholic 7 (Providence) and for one of the likely invitees ( Xavier). Although the new league could be content to stay at nine or 10 teams after playing one season, he believes it ultimately will get to 12.
He’s hearing Richmond as a possible candidate, perhaps favored by nearby Georgetown. He’s also not sure if Creighton is ideal because of the distance from some of the Eastern-most schools.
To Gillen, UD is a no-brainer.
“I hope Dayton gets in. They deserve to get in,” he said. “They get 13,000 for just about every home game. Tremendous tradition. They’d be a nice traveling partner with Xavier. A team plays Xavier on a Saturday and, on a Monday, they go up and play Dayton. I think it would make a lot of sense. Dayton would be a perfect fit.”
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...holic-7/nWd6T/
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03-16-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
Huh? Dayton, VCU, SJU, UMASS, and many of the potential additions are better than anything the Horizon League has to offer (outside of maybe Valpo).
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Perhaps they can rename it the "High School Gym, Second Tier Refs, Broken Shot Clock" League of America?
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03-16-2013, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
SLU isnt good at basketball? you live under a rock?
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Where did you read SLU isn't good at basketball?
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03-16-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by purpieschu
I am quite sure nearly all of us would agree that becoming a bottom feeder in the Big East would be no more preferable than the program's current state.
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I agree, I'd rather be at the top of a weakened A10 than be at the bottom of the BE.
The reason I want to be in the BE is because I honestly think UD can compete in the BE.
Originally Posted by Flyer_Tom
And yes we may linger near the bottom of the new BE but with the money it will bring in at the very least I can see our other sports benifiting greatly. I would rather be near the bottom of the BE initially than near the top of some rinky dink conference. It's all about the ceiling to me.
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Yeah, I disagree there, I see no point in joining the BE if you are always going to be at the bottom, even if they are paying you $3-$4 million/year. The objective is to get into the NCAA tournament, being at the bottom of the BE does not accomplish that objective.
Originally Posted by UDDoug
If Ricmond or SLU are chosen the selection has nothing to do with NCAA wins. The only two that are selected on that basis are X and Butler. And they also met all the other criteria. The rest os driven by politics, TV, footprint and money.
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I disagree, Creighton was chosen because they have a good track record of going to the NCAA tournament along with having a great fan base.
Creighton earned their way into the BE.
Originally Posted by shocka43
People say they would rather be the big fish in a mediocre conference than be a bottom dweller in the BE. Seriously?
Smoke and mirrors if anyone thinks the A10 will be fine with additions from other mid majors to equate to the BE or the current A10.
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Again, I'd rather be at the top of a weaker A10 than be at the bottom of the BE.
And yes, I agree, the new A10 will be worse than the old A10.
Originally Posted by hawkoooo
Or appearances for that matter. UD has made 14 trips. SLU 6 and I believe Richmond 8 or 9. Plus we know appearances must mean nothing because SJU would be at the top of the list with Xavier.
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Not sure why you think so highly of SJU, they have done about the same as UD in about the last 15 years.
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03-16-2013, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_NY
Where did you read SLU isn't good at basketball?
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the part where you said ud/ slu arent the ones...they'd prefer more good basketball teams. reads as though you're saying UD/SLU aren't good enough.
i can't be the only one that read it that way right?
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03-16-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bobber
They want a league, quick and dirty, and ten is about right for that. But Fox needs more product than ten can deliver, so they'll go to twelve in 14-15.
Just my opinion.
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I agree, I can see the BE going to 12 eventually.
UD should approach next year and the years after next year as a possible audition for entrance into the BE.
If UD does well in these next few/several years, then UD could end up in the BE eventually if the BE ever expands.
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03-16-2013, 03:09 PM
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St Louis hasn't been as good as UD the last 10 years. They have had a couple good years with Majerus' recruits. Can Crews or someone else keep that up - who knows. Creighton has been about the same as UD the past 10 years. They have done well the past couple years with the coach's All-American son. Can they keep that up once he is gone - who knows. I would say Creighton got in because their President is on the Marquette Board of Trustees. And if Richmond gets in instead of UD it will be due to geography.
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03-16-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
Huh? Dayton, VCU, SJU, UMASS, and many of the potential additions are better than anything the Horizon League has to offer (outside of maybe Valpo).
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Right. And the A-10 could add Valpo which would take the Horizon down another notch. The "new" A-10, with its additions, will still be much better than the Horizon.
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03-16-2013, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
Creighton has been about the same as UD the past 10 years. They have done well the past couple years with the coach's All-American son. Can they keep that up once he is gone - who knows. I would say Creighton got in because their President is on the Marquette Board of Trustees.
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I see that I'm the only one sticking up for Creighton.
I maintain that Creighton earned their way in, but I do agree that CU's president being on the Marquette BOT definitely helped.
Creighton NCAA appearances:
1941, 1962, 1964, 1974, 1975, 1978, 1981, 1989, 1991,
1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2012, 2013
UD NCAA appearances:
1952, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1974, 1984, 1985, 1990,
2000, 2003, 2004, 2009
St. Joe's NCAA appearances:
1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1966, 1969, 1971, 1973, 1974, 1981, 1982, 1986,
1997, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2008
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03-16-2013, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
the part where you said ud/slu arent the ones...they'd prefer more good basketball teams. reads as though you're saying UD/SLU aren't good enough.
i can't be the only one that read it that way right?
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They aren't good ENOUGH! They aren't in! If they were good enough they would be in now!
That doesn't mean they don't have a storied history and haven't been good in the past. Neither team is in now because they aren't good enough for now!
The C7 is willing to go further west if they can get better basketball, they have shown that with Xavier.
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03-16-2013, 04:22 PM
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Brigadier General
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,833
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Thanked 1,262 Times in 666 Posts
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Originally Posted by ud2
I see that I'm the only one sticking up for Creighton.
I maintain that Creighton earned their way in, but I do agree that CU's president being on the Marquette BOT definitely helped.
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I agree that Creighton is a worthy addition. I'm just not in the mood to promote them right about now. Ha
Plus their geography kinda sucks.
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03-16-2013, 04:42 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 14,788
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FWIW, just one man's opinion, the lobby that succeeds in keeping us out of the "band of 3" that makes the initial B10 (if in fact that will happen), will now have a year to make sure we are not part of the B12. And speculation aside, they will make good use of that year to exclude us. All the objective data available (and posters here have come up with some really good stuff why it should be UD) won't make a rat's arse difference if several BE schools actually have the clout they seem to have on the surface right now.
Oh, we'll hear our name thrown around in worn out articles that use other rags research and print, but in the end my money says we are on the outside looking in. That is, part of the new A10.
And that ultimate exclusion is a crock and is very disturbing.
2 cents
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Mad Props to San Diego Flyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
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