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11-08-2011, 04:54 PM
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How about stealing their name from a former Okie State Center and go to "Big Country"
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11-08-2011, 04:55 PM
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and we're now at 900 posts on a topic with more twists and turns that I think anyone imagined possible. Amazing.
While we're throwing out scenerios, I mentioned it previously, but perhaps adding Louisville for all sports, Notre Dame for all sports but football, BYU for football only would be the "best" plan for the B12. It would give the B12 a title game if they wanted it, give ND a home for its olympic sports and adding to the TV value side of the B12 in those sports, it would give BYU a "big time" home for its football program while avoiding the issue w/ BYU's no sunday policy that would affect everything else. Louisville adds a solid all around athletic program with a decent chunk of eyeballs.
Win, win, win, and win????
Not really sure what that would mean for the Big East going forward, but it makes a lot of sense to me for the B12, if BYU & ND were game. You know Louisville would jump at the opportunity. I do agree w/ the previous statement, neither louisville nor UC have any other options than the B12 at this point, at least in terms of moving up, so I don't think the B12 needs to feel pressed to add either school immediatly, despite what the Big East does in the near term. Both would jump to the B12 tomorrow if given the chance, as would Boise State and a handful of MWC teams. Similarly, the ACC won't have problems adding either UConn or Rutgers if need be. The B10 could be a player with either, but I don't think the ACC feels like it has to go to 16 right now since no body else is there.
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11-08-2011, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Class of 73 Alum
I suggested a few weeks ago that the Big East be renamed the Really Big East
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It's all relative.
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11-08-2011, 07:42 PM
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I like the Pan Am League for the renamed Big East. The former airline could be brought out of mothballs to sponsor the tournament.
This whole Big East expansion is patently absurd. At least the basketball will be watered down enough that they will no longer be an 8-9 bid league. Their RPIs will tank in a few years.
With Louisville (probably), Cincinnati (maybe), West Virginia, Syracuse, Pitt all gone, the best basketball will be with UConn, Villanova, Georgetown, and Marquette. Notre Dame isn't bad. Depaul, Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Houston, San Diego State provide some history but not a lot of substance (SDSU's great run last year notwithstanding). South Florida, Central Florida, SMU, Boise, and Rutgers provide nothing.
I still think ND and BYU will end up in the B12 as non-football members.
Finally, I think it's time for the UD powers to start working behind the scenes to form a new basketball conference. It's fairly likely at this point that what most of us want - the Big East basketball separation - is not going to happen. It's also fairly likely that the other thing most of us want - improvement across the board in the A14 - is not going to happen.
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11-08-2011, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sheg
Finally, I think it's time for the UD powers to start working behind the scenes to form a new basketball conference. It's fairly likely at this point that what most of us want - the Big East basketball separation - is not going to happen. It's also fairly likely that the other thing most of us want - improvement across the board in the A14 - is not going to happen.
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Good post. Keep the good teams (the schools that actually care/try) from the A-10 and add some good teams (George Mason, Old Dominion, VCU, Butler).
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11-09-2011, 07:40 AM
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A collection of emails to/from Dan Boren (Chancellor of Oklahoma):
http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/c.../OU_emails.pdf
Presumably obtained under FOIA. It's 176 pages, but there's a lot of white space and duplication. There's a really interesting one about Texas and ND to the Big Ten on page 144.
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11-09-2011, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sheg
A collection of emails to/from Dan Boren (Chancellor of Oklahoma):
http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/c.../OU_emails.pdf
Presumably obtained under FOIA. It's 176 pages, but there's a lot of white space and duplication. There's a really interesting one about Texas and ND to the Big Ten on page 144.
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I posted something similar some however many pages back in this thread, or perhaps it was on the similar one on the A-10 board about that email. Well, not the email, but it was a rumor from someone on the northwestern board who also happened to be the guy sayint Nebraska to the B10 long before anyone in the media had them on the B-10 radar. Its amazing how similar that guy's rumor was to the actual email from the OU president.
At any rate, now that there is a bit more weight behind it, I wonder how real the 2014 still is w/ the B12's 6 year TV revenue commitment, would Texas still move prior to the end of that 6 year period? No doubt that would be huge for the B10. Beyond that, would they look to add an additional 2 from the East Coast (Rutgers & Maryland?) and go to 16?
8 conference games seems like the hardest part of a large conference in football, perhaps adding the east coast teams would give ND the east coast presence they want, while both increasing the footprint and value of the BTN and allow them to move to a more managable 9 game schedule.
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11-10-2011, 08:27 AM
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yeah, that can't exactly be good for the Big East expansion plans.
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11-11-2011, 05:18 PM
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Another SEC member...
Frank Deford writes that Greece has learned of all the money to be made from FB TV and has applied for membership in the SEC.
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11-18-2011, 07:31 AM
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BYU and the Big East....
I've been reading the Salt Lake Tribune stories concerning a probable BYU move to the Big East. The thinking seems amazing when considered in light of Prider comments on the dysfunctional Big East.
Facts:
1. Schools like BYU consider it to be extremely important to be in an AQ conference...which, they feel, provide their only access to a BCS bowl.
2. The Big East has AQ status.
3. Reports are that BYU would not even consider the Big East if their connections with knowledgeable BCS experts did not convince them that even in a revamped BCS system, the BE would retain AQ status.
That last point is very important. BYU people are not stupid or ill-informed. Nor are the Boise State people. They have done their due dilligence...and are convinced that the 12-team proposed BCS model will ensure that the BE will retain its AQ status....all the while media "experts" and Priders say just the opposite.
BYU and Boise appear to be slam dunks for the new BE FB conference.....on the fence are Air Force and Navy. I suspect that the BE has a Plan B if either AF or Navy decide against joining.....indeed, it seems as if either both will join or neither.
It won't take long for this to shake out....before the end of the season, I think. Additionally, there has been talk of adding a few BB schools to the BE. Xavier is always mentioned.
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11-18-2011, 09:44 AM
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while I haven't read every post in this volumous thread I gather and it's certainly been my opinion is the Big East might retain their status with adds like Boise St and BYU (and I'm sure the folks at BYU & BSU are very astute and locked in on the issue) that the non football Big East schools are the ones in for another amusement park ride. The basketball schools are second class citizens waiting in the wings to be told what their future sports programs will look like. I'm sure BYU and Boise St are weighing their current western options versus joining the Big East and what short term and long term benefits would be derived from their choice. Their #1 concern has to be the scenario TCU has just emerged from...join the Big East under certain beliefs only to have those never realized. That's the scenario all the top tier (my term) Big East members and potential members operate under and they're the top dogs...you really have to wonder what the basketball schools must be thinking...they're truly stuck in between a rock and a hard place.
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11-18-2011, 09:54 AM
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While those basketball schools continue to pin their entire strategy on staying aligned with football (at any cost) and the cash it brings, I hope they get what they deserve. I would love nothing more than the BE basketball conference watered down to the point that the A10 is consistently out-performing it.
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11-18-2011, 10:59 AM
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Not all priders and media members fall for the "BE losing BCS status" hoopla. I don't think people in the know actually think that is a possibility. From everything I have read, as long as the BE fields 8 teams it is good until 2014. There is no indication that it would lose status even after 2014, especially if it is a strong 12-member league at that time.
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11-18-2011, 11:09 AM
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I haven't read every post here so sorry if this was addressed, but I don't understand why, for example, the MWC would allow Bosie St. to go to the BE as football only. I think if a conference plays a sport but you want to go elsewhere for that sport, it should be all or nothing
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11-18-2011, 11:25 AM
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The BCS must have at least 51% of the FBS teams to maintain its strangle hold on things. They don't want or need 60% or 65% of the FBS teams.......that would mean cutting the pie too many ways. Fifty-one percent, or as close to that as can be had, is fine.
That might be why a 12 team football BE is likely to get the nod for AQ status - regardless of the kind of football it plays - over a much bigger CUSA/MWC combination. Remember, the BCS is anything it wants to be. Nothing is written in stone. It can flip and change in an instant if it feels its monopoly is threatened.
You have to think BYU and Boise have been given assurances along those lines, otherwise I can't see them signing on for just two years on the AQ bandwagon. Mike Tranghese knows the BCS as well as anyone. I imagine he has been busy behind the scenes for months.
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11-18-2011, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by NCkevi
I haven't read every post here so sorry if this was addressed, but I don't understand why, for example, the MWC would allow Bosie St. to go to the BE as football only. I think if a conference plays a sport but you want to go elsewhere for that sport, it should be all or nothing
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The MWC would not allow it. Boise would move all of its other sports to a different conference. I've heard WCC, back to the WAC, even MVC as a possibility.
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11-18-2011, 12:17 PM
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For the sake of football....
Originally Posted by hawkoooo
The MWC would not allow it. Boise would move all of its other sports to a different conference. I've heard WCC, back to the WAC, even MVC as a possibility.
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That schools are willing to jerk around their entire athletic department, including all their other sports, is stark (and disturbing) evidence of the overwhelming dominance of football in college athletics.
More than one pundit has made the observation that football is responsible in no small way for the devastating mess Penn State finds itself in. The rationale for such a notion is that at many of the big time FB schools the programs have become so large and powerful, and profitable, so as to become untouchable institutions unto themselves, answering to no one. Thus, an affair like PSU's can result in an immediate "circle the wagons" mentality.....worsening troubling situations like Sandusky's.
The extent to which such situations can get out of hand and severely distort the thinking of intelligent, otherwise well-intentioned, people, is evidenced by their thinking that somehow an affair like Sandusky's can be covered up and hidden from view,...permanently. Any thinking person outside PSU would be certain that it's impossible to hide something like that...that it's a matter of "when" it's revealed, not "whether". And the longer the concealment, the worse the matter becomes.
It's a chore for psychologists to explain the group mentality and behavior of the guys at PSU who, by any other measure, are very intelligent, responsible people that have nothing but the best interests of PSU at heart...yet they collectively engage in bahavior causing their beloved institution harm that will take many years to repair. Hard to figure.
Nonetheless, here we have schools falling all over themselves, turning their athletic departments upside down and inside out to join BCS conferences. Even service academies?
It's almost unbelieveable!
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11-18-2011, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bobber
The BCS must have at least 51% of the FBS teams to maintain its strangle hold on things.
That might be why a 12 team football BE is likely to get the nod for AQ status
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The ACC (14), SEC (14), Big Ten (12), Pac 12 (12) and Big 12 (10) have a combined 62 teams. They don't need the Big East to keep the BCS alive.
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11-18-2011, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FSUFlyer
The ACC (14), SEC (14), Big Ten (12), Pac 12 (12) and Big 12 (10) have a combined 62 teams. They don't need the Big East to keep the BCS alive.
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True, they could just cut it down to five AQ conferences from the current six. But I doubt they will. At least, I have not heard any rumors to that effect. Has anyone else?
After all, why are CUSA and the MtnWest merging if not in the hope of getting that sixth AQ slot?
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11-18-2011, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bobber
True, they could just cut it down to five AQ conferences from the current six. But I doubt they will. At least, I have not heard any rumors to that effect. Has anyone else?
After all, why are CUSA and the MtnWest merging if not in the hope of getting that sixth AQ slot?
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AQ may be a thing of the past:
According to sources with direct knowledge of meetings held in San Francisco earlier this week, the suggested change calls for the BCS to sever its direct ties with the so-called BCS bowls -- the Allstate Sugar Bowl, Tostitos Fiesta Bowl, Discover Orange Bowl and Rose Bowl Game presented by Vizio -- and concentrate solely on arranging a No. 1 vs. No. 2 national championship matchup.
The proposal also would eliminate automatic BCS bowl qualifying status currently given to the six major conferences. All conferences would be free to make their own deals with the 34 other existing bowls.
More: http://espn.go.com/college-football/...me-sources-say
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11-18-2011, 11:06 PM
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NCkevi beat me to it, but that would certainly be a very good thing to stop this ridiculous conference expansion. Let each conference keep ALL of their bowl tie-ins, and just take the top two and put them in the "National Championship Game." Plus, that would also open the door for expanding that scenario to taking the top four or eight at some point, because it would get the BCS Championship Game away from control of the bowls themselves. That would be tremendous for college football as a whole.
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11-19-2011, 12:00 AM
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Whoaa. That would make the CUSA/MtnWest monster look pretty foolish, wouldn't it?
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11-19-2011, 09:17 AM
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That would be interesting to go back to the bowl "tie-ins" with conferences and do away with BCS Bowls. Schools like Boise, Utah, and TCU (and others) have been complaining that the BCS is rigged and it is too difficult for them to get to a BCS Bowl. Well, how many teams like that made the four major bowls (Rose, Sugar, Orange, and Cotton) back in the "good ole days" - not very many.
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11-19-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bobber
Whoaa. That would make the CUSA/MtnWest monster look pretty foolish, wouldn't it?
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It still could be beneficial. If Houston had a chance to play Boise or TCU at the end of this season, it would do wonders for their poll positions (if they won of course). But would that mean the regular C-USA title game would go out the window? If Houston got to play in BOTH games I think it would be really beneficial. But only one? Not sure its much of an upgrade.
Does anybody know how such a monster conference would operate schedule wise?
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11-21-2011, 03:44 PM
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WVU Story
West Virginia expects to be playing soon in the Big 12 regardless of the BE lawsuit. It is an interesting read. Also talks about the possible elimination of AQ status and the effect that may have. You can't help but wonder if UConn, Rutgers, Louisville and Cincinnati aren't thinking along the same lines.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoot...-easts-lawsuit
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11-22-2011, 08:29 PM
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The crawl on the CBS Sports coverage of the Illinois State/Rutgers game is reporting that talks between the Big East and BYU have stalled, and that the BE is now moving on to try to convince San Diego State to join.
Interesting......verrry interesting.
Just in. This independent confirmation.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/45409685/
Last edited by bobber; 11-22-2011 at 08:34 PM..
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11-22-2011, 09:27 PM
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And suddenly there is a lot of buzz on the conference-switching scene. Seth Davis tweeted - and others are picking up - a story that Notre Dame has been in preliminary talks with the ACC about joining for all sports membership. Obviously this is just a rumor, but it could mean the Irish are less than bullish on the future of the Big East.
Yikes!
Also makes you wonder if people are starting to sweat in Piscataway and Storrs.
Last edited by bobber; 11-22-2011 at 09:32 PM..
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11-22-2011, 11:14 PM
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RU and UC have been sweating for some time.....
Originally Posted by bobber
And suddenly there is a lot of buzz on the conference-switching scene. Seth Davis tweeted - and others are picking up - a story that Notre Dame has been in preliminary talks with the ACC about joining for all sports membership. Obviously this is just a rumor, but it could mean the Irish are less than bullish on the future of the Big East.
Yikes!
Also makes you wonder if people are starting to sweat in Piscataway and Storrs.
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If ND winds up in the ACC the ACC will become the first 16 team mega-conference..since a 16th team will then be added. Either RU or UC would jump at the chance. I don't know which would have the most appeal to the ACC. UC may have an edge academically and because of its exceptional overall athletics programs across the board....and may get ESPN help. But, BC is fighting to keep UC out. But, since BC's AD readily admitted his personal ill will toward UConn, that is likely to weaken the credibility of any other arguments that BC may present against UC.
Perhaps the best thing that could happen for RU and/or UC would be for the SEC to go after an ACC school. Often Fla St is mentioned....rumored to being unhappy with the state of ACC FB. That would put the ACC on the defensive, needing to add a team, with or without ND. RU and UC would both be attractive....both are very good schools with no baggage.
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11-23-2011, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bobber
talks between the Big East and BYU have stalled, and that the BE is now moving on to try to convince San Diego State to join.
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So at what point does the Big East just look really pathetic in its reach for a western team? When an invite goes out to the Idaho Vandals? The San Jose State Spartans? The Rice Owls?
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11-23-2011, 08:23 AM
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I guess the question is, why? The "why" likely tells you more about the future of Big East football than the inclusion of BYU could. Does BYU have a better conference affiliation (B12?) on the table? BYU certainly does things a little different, as evidenced in basketball last season, perhaps there's a "pursuit of their best interests" fallout. In either of those cases, it likely doesn't tell us much about the ability of the Big East to survive in the near term.
However, I saw a scrawl on the bottom of the page, that one of the issues was BYU wanted to maintain the rights to their home football games, the Big East said no. I can take that one of two ways, the Big East doesn't want to set precedence allowing different teams to have different deals, or BYU has crunched the numbers and the TV execs they've talked to have lead them to believe the TV package for a reformed Big East won't net them as much money as the BYU network will. I'll assume BYU is one of the more attractive TV options amongst the teams remaining and the teams rumured for the new Big East.
On the Notre Dame side, if they do indeed go to the ACC, UConn & Rutgers seem like natural fits, but what about Louisville? Aside from Notre Dame, Louisville probably has the best overall atheltic program of teams outside the B12, B10, P12, SEC & ACC. Louisville would give Notre Dame a relatively close travel partner for non revenue sports.
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11-23-2011, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Medford
However, I saw a scrawl on the bottom of the page, that one of the issues was BYU wanted to maintain the rights to their home football games, the Big East said no. I can take that one of two ways, the Big East doesn't want to set precedence allowing different teams to have different deals, or BYU has crunched the numbers and the TV execs they've talked to have lead them to believe the TV package for a reformed Big East won't net them as much money as the BYU network will. I'll assume BYU is one of the more attractive TV options amongst the teams remaining and the teams rumured for the new Big East.
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I haven't read every post in this thread, so maybe this has already been said, but if I was the Big East commissioner, I would seriously think about giving BYU an exemption to let them retain the tv rights to their home football games. The Big East is fighting to remain relevant in college football by trying to retain aq status. So, right now, I don't think the Big East is in a position to make very many demands of anybody. The Big East should give the exemption to BYU and then add them so that Boise State can be convinced to join the Big East also.
I wonder if the ACC or another conference would allow ND to retain ND's tv rights?
On the other hand, while I do think the Big East needs BYU, doesn't BYU also need the Big East? Why would BYU pass up an opportunity to join a BCS conference? I guess BYU would be taking a pretty big financial hit with the tv rights/money by joining the Big East. It's too bad the Big East and BYU can't reach some sort of compromise deal regarding the tv rights/money.
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11-23-2011, 09:37 AM
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My guess, the Big East commish knows roughly what a TV package w/ BYU home game rights is worth and what a TV package w/o BYU home game rights is worth. If the AQ status is going away either way, the only thing to re-align over is a better TV deal.
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11-23-2011, 09:54 AM
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According to this article, BYU is probably making a mistake by not joining the Big East due to the fact that the new Big East tv deal would reportedly be far more profitable to BYU than what BYU currently earns with its own tv network. The sticking point seems to be that BYU wants to retain some form of independence regarding tv rights. But, as the article points out, BYU is smart to be wary of giving up its tv rights to the Big East due to the current fragile state of the Big East.
This seems to me like both sides here are really missing a good opportunity by failing to reach a compromise. Both sides would benefit greatly by agreeing to a deal if such a deal would help the Big East retain aq status.
"The latest reports concerning the expansion of the Big East Conference indicate that the only thing holding up a major announcement is the debate over BYU's current television contract.
BYU wants to hold on to their current TV deal, while the Big East is trying to convince them that a new TV deal with the conference would be far more lucrative.
The Big East is probably correct, but you can't blame BYU for wanting to hold on to the sure thing with all the craziness in college football today.
Now, without sounding sarcastic, why don't the two sides simply compromise and do both, for now.
The Big East television deal is going to be massive despite what some might think.
Now, if Big East officials truly believe that it will be that large of a deal, then simply give BYU the guarantees they need. If the new contract fails to surpass what BYU has in place, then let them keep what they have, or at the very least, guarantee them the same.
I know this is a very simplistic way of looking at it, after all, we live in the age of lawyers and fine print. However, you can't tell me there isn't a way to make everyone happy with that much money floating around.
As far as BYU TV itself, which is the schools own network, letting them replay the games and giving them one home game a year as part of the deal should be no problem for the Big East. That seems like a small price to pay to land the Cougars."
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/9...ate-and-others
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11-23-2011, 10:28 AM
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UL?...not a chance Med.
Originally Posted by Medford
I guess the question is, why? The "why" likely tells you more about the future of Big East football than the inclusion of BYU could. Does BYU have a better conference affiliation (B12?) on the table? BYU certainly does things a little different, as evidenced in basketball last season, perhaps there's a "pursuit of their best interests" fallout. In either of those cases, it likely doesn't tell us much about the ability of the Big East to survive in the near term.
However, I saw a scrawl on the bottom of the page, that one of the issues was BYU wanted to maintain the rights to their home football games, the Big East said no. I can take that one of two ways, the Big East doesn't want to set precedence allowing different teams to have different deals, or BYU has crunched the numbers and the TV execs they've talked to have lead them to believe the TV package for a reformed Big East won't net them as much money as the BYU network will. I'll assume BYU is one of the more attractive TV options amongst the teams remaining and the teams rumured for the new Big East.
On the Notre Dame side, if they do indeed go to the ACC, UConn & Rutgers seem like natural fits, but what about Louisville? Aside from Notre Dame, Louisville probably has the best overall atheltic program of teams outside the B12, B10, P12, SEC & ACC. Louisville would give Notre Dame a relatively close travel partner for non revenue sports.
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Med, money is the driver, as always. But, other things do matter....academics/research being one of them. The ACC is about as likely to take a school like Louisville as they are to take Wright State. The ACC thinks of itself as being made up of elite institutions.....ND, Rutgers and UConn fit the profile....UL, most certainlly does not.
If either UL or Cincy are lucky enough to wind up in a major conference it will have to be the Big 12.
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11-23-2011, 11:01 AM
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I know Louisiville is a long shot for the ACC due to academics, UConn seems like the best fit for everyone else, but as an overall athletic program, athletics only, they have the best profile available outside of ND.
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11-23-2011, 11:47 AM
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San Diego State would be a football-only member, but their basketball has been really good of late. If they moved their football program to the Big East, they would have to find another league for its other sports as reports are the Mountain West would kick them out. The Big West would be a major downgrade, but the West Coast Conference with Gonzaga wouldn't be a bad fit. The WCC only has 9 members so I think they'd definitely take San Diego State.
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11-23-2011, 12:02 PM
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Well, all the articles say that the Big East will now simply move on to acquire San Diego State (football only) to complete it's Western Wing. The assumption being that SDSU will satisfy Boise State, who will then join hands with SMU and UCF and Houston and they will all start singing Kumbayah.
Some thoughts and interesting points made by posters on other sites.
Adding San Diego makes no sense geographically. And someone pointed out that the best yearly home attendance for the Aztecs recently was a meager 34K per home game. Most years they draw only 24-30K. This doesn't sound like a BCS school to me and it doesn't to a lot of really serious college football fans either.
The news that the BCS may change completely in 2013 and concentrate only on matching the #1 and #2 teams in a national championship game might have been the kiss of death for Big East expansion. If there is no AQ status then what's all the fuss about joining the Big East? A better TV deal? Perhaps. But for how long?
And, if the ACC and other solid BCS conferences should decide to expand in a year to two, the Big East will likely see Rutgers, UConn, Louisville and Cincinnati exit for greener pastures. This will leave the Big East as sort of an oddball Conference USA with a far Western Wing, huge travel expenses, few natural rivalries and seven pesky basketball schools with a completely different agenda than the football schools.
This still may happen. But you have to ask: Why?
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11-23-2011, 12:04 PM
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Maybe, just maybe, there are some universities that are willing to take a few less dollars to maintain control of their athletic departments - and BYU may just be one of them. If I were in their shoes, I would take a few less dollars to maintain my own brand and control all my own decisions - which ND has done all these years. Likewise, if I were a conference, I would want all the members to live by the same rules.
When you see a university president like Gee at tosu say - if even in jest - he hopes "the coach doesn't dismiss me". When you see what has happened at PSU, not just the pedophile scandal but also the reports that the football players lived by a different set of rules, you begin to see that priorities at many of our universities are out of whack. Athletic departments have become kingdoms within themselves. The BCS system is just a symptom of that excess. Are there any universities that are willing to say enough is enough? So far, not many.
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11-23-2011, 12:55 PM
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$'s to donuts it's simply BYU having the smarts to add this up as a net loser in the long run...it's not like they're not already on the national radar and they probably have it figured we bring more to the Big East than the Big East brings to us. It's not that hard to argue that scenario. Frankly, many folks in the eastern time zone don't realize the great demographics and vitality of our western time zone countrymen and while I'm sure the Ath Dept at BYU felt it necessary to entertain the Big East conversation I don't find it a surprise to find out they think it not in their best interest. The Big East is either a ticking bomb or a mine field for the next few years meaning it's either going to blow up at all at once or just mine by mine...it looks like BYU may be choosing not be the next TCU.
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11-23-2011, 12:57 PM
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Vandy
Originally Posted by ud69
Maybe, just maybe, there are some universities that are willing to take a few less dollars to maintain control of their athletic departments - and BYU may just be one of them. If I were in their shoes, I would take a few less dollars to maintain my own brand and control all my own decisions - which ND has done all these years. Likewise, if I were a conference, I would want all the members to live by the same rules.
When you see a university president like Gee at tosu say - if even in jest - he hopes "the coach doesn't dismiss me". When you see what has happened at PSU, not just the pedophile scandal but also the reports that the football players lived by a different set of rules, you begin to see that priorities at many of our universities are out of whack. Athletic departments have become kingdoms within themselves. The BCS system is just a symptom of that excess. Are there any universities that are willing to say enough is enough? So far, not many.
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A few years ago Vanderbuilt eliminated its athletics department and the position of AD. Athletics now reports directly to a senior university VP. At the time VU claimed to be worried about the very things that have been happening.
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11-23-2011, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by oRed
$'s to donuts it's simply BYU having the smarts to add this up as a net loser in the long run...it's not like they're not already on the national radar and they probably have it figured we bring more to the Big East than the Big East brings to us. It's not that hard to argue that scenario. Frankly, many folks in the eastern time zone don't realize the great demographics and vitality of our western time zone countrymen and while I'm sure the Ath Dept at BYU felt it necessary to entertain the Big East conversation I don't find it a surprise to find out they think it not in their best interest. The Big East is either a ticking bomb or a mine field for the next few years meaning it's either going to blow up at all at once or just mine by mine...it looks like BYU may be choosing not be the next TCU.
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I couldn't have said it any better, O. BYU would bring a lot more to the table than it would ever be likely to get back.
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11-23-2011, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69
Maybe, just maybe, there are some universities that are willing to take a few less dollars...
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A few less dollars yes, but this is big money we're talking about. I don't have all the facts relating to BYU's tv contracts, but I know the Conference USA and Mountain West TV contracts are in the neighborhood of 14-15 million. If the Big East can get anywhere close to $1.5 billion as they're saying, that is pretty significant. AQ status is great as long as it lasts, but at the very least schools like SMU, Houston and UCF will receive five-ten times more money, allowing them to up their athletic budgets so they can (at least theoretically) better compete with the big boys.
Here's a good article from today's Orlando Sentinel that touches on the money and why the Big East remains the best option for schools like UCF: http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/spo...le+Feedfetcher
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11-23-2011, 03:03 PM
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There is so much uncertainty with all of this. Are 16 team super conferences the wave of the future? If so, the Big East as a BCS conference is probably history. Maybe BYU is holding out for an invitation to a 16 team Pac10 or Big12.
I don't want to hear BYU complaining if they get left out of a BCS conference as a result of realignment. BYU has had the opportunity to join both the Big 12 and Big East now, and BYU has turned down both offers.
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11-24-2011, 02:23 AM
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This is an interesting weekend for all this BCS talk.
1. We have the end of two long going rivalry games, namely Texas-Texas A&M, and Nebraska-Kansas.
2. 1 vs. 3 and the number 2 team is rooting for #1. How many times can you look at one division in a conference as that dominating and basically wrapped up a rematch for the National Championship game?
Gotta wonder what will be next?
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11-27-2011, 12:07 AM
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If Boise State and San Diego State were to join the new Big East it would be for football only. They would have to find a new home for all of their other sports, right?
Well, supposedly, the Big West would be the likely choice for those sports. But the Big West Commissioner, when asked, said neither school has contacted his conference about possible limited participation. And the SDSU boards are really fired up over the prospect of having the basketball team, which is on a run right now, leave the multi-bid Mountain West to play in the one bid Big West.
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebaske...-to-slow-start
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11-27-2011, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by bobber
If Boise State and San Diego State were to join the new Big East it would be for football only. They would have to find a new home for all of their other sports, right?
Well, supposedly, the Big West would be the likely choice for those sports. But the Big West Commissioner, when asked, said neither school has contacted his conference about possible limited participation. And the SDSU boards are really fired up over the prospect of having the basketball team, which is on a run right now, leave the multi-bid Mountain West to play in the one bid Big West.
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebaske...-to-slow-start
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I love how some of these schools are falling all over themselves to screw their other sports in order to move their football teams to a crappy conference that may or may not maintain its AQ status - or, there may not even be such a thing as AQ status in a couple years.
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11-27-2011, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bobber
If Boise State and San Diego State were to join the new Big East it would be for football only. They would have to find a new home for all of their other sports, right?
Well, supposedly, the Big West would be the likely choice for those sports. But the Big West Commissioner, when asked, said neither school has contacted his conference about possible limited participation. And the SDSU boards are really fired up over the prospect of having the basketball team, which is on a run right now, leave the multi-bid Mountain West to play in the one bid Big West.
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebaske...-to-slow-start
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Yes, the Big West would be a step down, but the WCC would be a good fit for SDSU basketball and its other sports. WCC only has 9 members and is strong in basketball led by the Zags obviously.
Originally Posted by longtimefan
I love how some of these schools are falling all over themselves to screw their other sports in order to move their football teams to a crappy conference that may or may not maintain its AQ status - or, there may not even be such a thing as AQ status in a couple years.
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AQ stuatus has very little to do with things. It's a bonus as long as it exists, but even without it the money will be significantly more than what these schools are getting in their existing conferences.
Last edited by DallasFlyer; 11-27-2011 at 11:06 AM..
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11-27-2011, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer
Yes, the Big West would be a step down, but the WCC would be a good fit for SDSU basketball and its other sports. WCC only has 9 members and is strong in basketball led by the Zags obviously.
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WCC is not an option for SDSU or BSU. WCC is made up of faith-based institutions and will not admit state schools.
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11-27-2011, 12:40 PM
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Much more to it than AQ status....
Originally Posted by longtimefan
I love how some of these schools are falling all over themselves to screw their other sports in order to move their football teams to a crappy conference that may or may not maintain its AQ status - or, there may not even be such a thing as AQ status in a couple years.
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I agree cpmpletely that the entire BCS mania and process is absurd. But what schools like Boise and others are after goes way beyond a conference with AQ status. As you point out, there may be no AQ status in a few years.
When thinking about this longtimer, you've got to rember that while the guys running these schools may be unprincipled, they are not stupid. The Big East is presenting the candidate schools with hard data showing them the TV contract opportunities that the BE can guarantee. It amounts to millions more per year than the schools are now getting.
As usual,...it's the money.
Also, the BE must know that Boise is "in" if the BE can come up with a western partner. Otherwise there would be no reason for the BE to even consider a school like SDU....it would make no sense. Absent Boise, the BE would be looking much closer to home....and there are still eastern schools that are begging to join the Big East.
It's all nuts....we know that....and a disgrace for college athletics. I wonder what, if anything, it will take to break the cycle and force a return to sanity.
Meanwhile, we can be thankful that we're not caught up in the mess. If the BE BB schools split off some day UD may become involved...but never at the insane level that typifies the FB schools. It's sad.
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11-27-2011, 02:20 PM
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It is true there may or may not be AQ status for conferences in several years. And it is also true that the Big East would bring in more TV money than these schools now get.
But the elephant in the room has to be the future status of the five remaining BE football schools, Rutgers, UConn, USF, Louisville and Cincinatti. Of the five, only USF will not be on the shopping list of current BCS conferences like the ACC and the Big 12 if and when expansion takes another lurch. In addition, should Notre Dame decide that playing the likes of Houston, SMU and Central Florida for its olympic sports is not what they had in mind and breaks from the Big East to join the ACC, then I think all bets are off.
With Notre Dame possibly gone and Rutgers, UConn, Cincy and Louisville all nervously looking at the door the future of the conference is shaky. In a very possible scenario in a few years the Big East could be a mid-level football conference that is spread from coast to coast and a weakened basketball conference with only Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette to do the heavy lifting.
I think the networks have probably figured this out and I wonder how much they'd be willing to pay for the broadcast rights? Certainly it wouldn't be anything near the amount the Big East just turned down a year ago. And forget the geographic absurdity of the whole thing, just think of what an academic polyglot this far-flung entity would be. You'd have schools like Houston rubbing elbows with Georgetown and Villanova. Not to mention Boise and San Diego State basically throwing the non-football part of their athletic programs under the bus by shipping them off to the Big West.
A high price to pay for - possibly - two years of basking in the BCS sun.
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11-27-2011, 02:41 PM
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All excellent points, bobber,...
Originally Posted by bobber
It is true there may or may not be AQ status for conferences in several years. And it is also true that the Big East would bring in more TV money than these schools now get.
But the elephant in the room has to be the future status of the five remaining BE football schools, Rutgers, UConn, USF, Louisville and Cincinatti. Of the five, only USF will not be on the shopping list of current BCS conferences like the ACC and the Big 12 if and when expansion takes another lurch. In addition, should Notre Dame decide that playing the likes of Houston, SMU and Central Florida for its olympic sports is not what they had in mind and breaks from the Big East to join the ACC, then I think all bets are off.
With Notre Dame possibly gone and Rutgers, UConn, Cincy and Louisville all nervously looking at the door the future of the conference is shaky. In a very possible scenario in a few years the Big East could be a mid-level football conference that is spread from coast to coast and a weakened basketball conference with only Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette to do the heavy lifting.
I think the networks have probably figured this out and I wonder how much they'd be willing to pay for the broadcast rights? Certainly it wouldn't be anything near the amount the Big East just turned down a year ago. And forget the geographic absurdity of the whole thing, just think of what an academic polyglot this far-flung entity would be. You'd have schools like Houston rubbing elbows with Georgetown and Villanova. Not to mention Boise and San Diego State basically throwing the non-football part of their athletic programs under the bus by shipping them off to the Big West.
A high price to pay for - possibly - two years of basking on the BCS sun.
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...and all true. But, the issues you raise are all well known to the leaders of the institutions considering joining the Big East. Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps these guys are stupid...but, I really don't think so.
It seems likely that they know things that we don't. Perhaps they know that while most of the remaining BE FB schools want out, that it will a few years, at least, before that happens, if ever. Meanwhile, a multi-year TV deal will be struck from which they can benefit significantly.
There must be some meaningful appeal to joining the BE that makes so many C-USA-level schools want to do it. It has been pointed out by Priders that the level of FB in the BE is not significantly better than that of C-USA...maybe no better at all. Yet C-USA schools are not just interested in the BE, they're anxious to join. Boise would join in a heart beat if it were not for geography.
Those guys all know something that we do not....I'd love to hear their side of the story.
(I am reminded of something I was told many years ago when I started my professional career...I was about 25. An older and wiser collegue told me that when someone or some orgranization seems to be doing something that appears to be completely foolish, irrationale or otherwise impossible to explain or understand....almost invariablly it seems that way because there are important things that you do not understand about the situation.)
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11-27-2011, 02:42 PM
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All excellent points, bobber,...
Originally Posted by bobber
It is true there may or may not be AQ status for conferences in several years. And it is also true that the Big East would bring in more TV money than these schools now get.
But the elephant in the room has to be the future status of the five remaining BE football schools, Rutgers, UConn, USF, Louisville and Cincinatti. Of the five, only USF will not be on the shopping list of current BCS conferences like the ACC and the Big 12 if and when expansion takes another lurch. In addition, should Notre Dame decide that playing the likes of Houston, SMU and Central Florida for its olympic sports is not what they had in mind and breaks from the Big East to join the ACC, then I think all bets are off.
With Notre Dame possibly gone and Rutgers, UConn, Cincy and Louisville all nervously looking at the door the future of the conference is shaky. In a very possible scenario in a few years the Big East could be a mid-level football conference that is spread from coast to coast and a weakened basketball conference with only Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette to do the heavy lifting.
I think the networks have probably figured this out and I wonder how much they'd be willing to pay for the broadcast rights? Certainly it wouldn't be anything near the amount the Big East just turned down a year ago. And forget the geographic absurdity of the whole thing, just think of what an academic polyglot this far-flung entity would be. You'd have schools like Houston rubbing elbows with Georgetown and Villanova. Not to mention Boise and San Diego State basically throwing the non-football part of their athletic programs under the bus by shipping them off to the Big West.
A high price to pay for - possibly - two years of basking on the BCS sun.
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...and all true. But, the issues you raise are all well known to the leaders of the institutions considering joining the Big East. <aybe I'm wrong. Perhaps these guys are stupid...but, I really don't think so.
It seems likely that they know things that we don't. Perhaps they know that while most of the remaining BE FB schools want out, that it will a few years, at least, before that happens, if ever. Meanwhile, a multi-year TV deal will be struck from which they can benefit significantly.
There must be some meaningful appeal to joining the BE that makes so many C-USA-level schools want to do it. It has been pointed out by Priders that the level of FB in the BE is not significantly better than that of C-USA...maybe no better at all. Yet C-USA schools are not just interested in the BE, they're anxious to join. Boise would join in a heart beat if it were not for geography.
Those guys all know something that we do not....I'd love to hear their side of the story.
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12-04-2011, 04:58 PM
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12-04-2011, 05:06 PM
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What is a football post
doing here?
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12-04-2011, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chriscage
doing here?
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Well, technically, you are right: this is the basketball area. I started a thread like this on this subject in the Jibberish area a while back, but somehow it got moved over here.
Conference realignment is of interest to many of us because what happens elsewhere may affect the A10 and UD (e.g., Temple may leave the A10 for the Big East because of football). And football is the prime mover in conference realignment. If Louisville's football coaches are recruiting high school prospects by telling them they'll soon be playing in the Big 12, that is of interest to those of us following this situation.
So, a thousand pardons if you are not interested in the current conference situation and found that the article I linked was a waste of your time. I suggest that in future you avoid clicking on this thread.
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12-04-2011, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by chriscage
What is a football post doing here?
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Are you serious? This is really a tongue-in-cheek joke, right?
956 posts later and you don't know why a football post is on this thread?
I suggest you read them all and get up to speed with us.
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12-04-2011, 10:09 PM
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Going to be interesting. If U of L does go to the Big 12 who is member 12? Is it UC or is it someone we haven't heard of?
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12-05-2011, 09:14 AM
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Bobber, I don't think you need to appologize for your post, its exactly on topic for what this thread has become. Should the thread be involved in the Men's BB board or the Off topic board?? Not for us to decide, but 10 pages in it looks like Chris is ok with it sticking on the Men's BBall board for the impact these changes may have on UD & the A-10 down the road. If someone hasn't figured on thru the first 9 pages that football is the driving force behind this, and the overlying story in most of the reports that's on them, not you bobber.
Thanks for the update, Louisville to the B12, and the B12 getting back to 12 makes sense on a lot of fronts. It was reported a month or two ago that Notre Dame was considerring its future conference affiliations. The B12, ACC & B10 have all been mentioned, but the word was that Notre Dame wouldn't decide (or at least make an announcement) until after the football season. With Football season over (save the bowl games) an announcement from ND, if any were to come, should happen w/n the next 2 months. They could hold off until after their bowl game, but you would think they'd want a clear message to their football recruits about their future intentions. Football recruiting typically picks up pretty heavily b/w now and January.
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12-05-2011, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Medford
Bobber, I don't think you need to appologize for your post, its exactly on topic for what this thread has become.
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Medford and Bobber are right - realignment will more than likely have an impact on basketball as well. Having a SINGLE thread devoted to that doesn't hurt and the fact that for 3 months it's been consistently at the top of the list of threads should show it is of interest to many people here.
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12-05-2011, 11:08 AM
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UAC, having pondered the premise in your Posts that these University/College Administrators who are considering joining the BE are not stupid, I've got to disagree. In looking at the disruption that would be caused to their athletic departments by such a move, the lack of commitment by existing BE members to that conference, the fluidity of the whole BCS AQ question and the disparate location of some of these schools, I think you're giving them waaaaaaay too much credit. Quite often, these people (Senior College Officials and Trustees) are the epitome of the "Peter Principal" at work. They may have the requisite terminal Degrees in their respective fields, they may be quite adept at "meeting and greeting' and raising funds for their endowments and they may even be somewhat proficient in structuring the academic environment at their schools, but by-and-large they seem totally inept in anything other than linear thinking and any matters that may take them outside their comfort zone within the Ivory Towers. When you look at what some of these same officials have presided over with "speech codes" on campus, allowing curricula to be dictated by the academic "fad of the day", rogue athletic departments and other ethical lapses, there may be just too much Institutional hubris for these folks to overcome. So I, for one, am not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how prescient they may be when it comes to Conference realignment; greedy, yes..."smart", not necessarily. Witnessing this fiasco unfold has been like watching a slow motion train-wreck as institutional integrity has been flushed away as these same "smarter-than-your-average-bear" Administrators greedily seek out that elusive pot-o-gold at the end of the BCS rainbow and for what may yet prove to be a chimera.
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12-05-2011, 11:58 AM
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All very good points....
Originally Posted by Bat'71
UAC, having pondered the premise in your Posts that these University/College Administrators who are considering joining the BE are not stupid, I've got to disagree. In looking at the disruption that would be caused to their athletic departments by such a move, the lack of commitment by existing BE members to that conference, the fluidity of the whole BCS AQ question and the disparate location of some of these schools, I think you're giving them waaaaaaay too much credit. Quite often, these people (Senior College Officials and Trustees) are the epitome of the "Peter Principal" at work. They may have the requisite terminal Degrees in their respective fields, they may be quite adept at "meeting and greeting' and raising funds for their endowments and they may even be somewhat proficient in structuring the academic environment at their schools, but by-and-large they seem totally inept in anything other than linear thinking and any matters that may take them outside their comfort zone within the Ivory Towers. When you look at what some of these same officials have presided over with "speech codes" on campus, allowing curricula to be dictated by the academic "fad of the day", rogue athletic departments and other ethical lapses, there may be just too much Institutional hubris for these folks to overcome. So I, for one, am not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how prescient they may be when it comes to Conference realignment; greedy, yes..."smart", not necessarily. Witnessing this fiasco unfold has been like watching a slow motion train-wreck as institutional integrity has been flushed away as these same "smarter-than-your-average-bear" Administrators greedily seek out that elusive pot-o-gold at the end of the BCS rainbow and for what may yet prove to be a chimera.
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If the BE grand plan falls apart that will tend to support my view that these guys are not dumb....if it moves forward I'll join your camp.
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Other points: I have read on this board and have been hearing/reading elsewhere how "easy" college is....or has become. Remembering well how hard I had to work at UD and at Northwestern...I have found that hard to believe, especially seeing how very hard my grandkids are working in middle school and high school...buried in homework.
Then over Thanksgiving I was at an affair at which a recent grad of a very good, highly competitive school was in attendance. In passing he mentioned what a breeze college was....a piece of cake....very little effort. Good grief! I am shocked by that...for nearly a quarter of a million to get a kid through college, I want them worked like slaves.
Also, recently, I read somewhere that in the mid-60s A Duke study concluded that, given what was haappening in college athletics.....in the 60s mind you,...that Duke would no longer be able to compete in the ACC...and should therefore withdraw.
Of course, Duke did not withdraw....but must have made other academic "adjustments and accommodations" for its athletes so that the school could remain competitive in the ACC. Well, if Duke was concerned in the 60s and made changes so as to "fit in" the ACC, you can imagine what a Duke education must be like today...both for athletes and non-athletes.
I think one of the issues is cost. Schools are a lot more reluctant to dismiss a failing student after his/her first year after the kid's family has forked over $50K for that one year. Even if financial aid was provided...the money had to come from somewhere. Also, schools are now "dinged" by U.S. News and other raters for poor student retention. What better way to ensure retention than to make college easy.
It should not be easy....and 90%, or whatever, of HS kids should not be going to college. It should be d**n demanding even for the best students...and college should not be an option for well below average HS students.
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12-05-2011, 01:10 PM
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Colleges aren't making things easier....physics, engineering, chemistry, math etc...can't be made easy.
What colleges are doing is inventing majors like Recreation Managment, Film, Child and Family Studes, Photography etc....and pushing their athletes into fields that a generation or two ago didn't exist or only needed certificates.
Duke plays the game and likes to tout their basketball team's 'average SAT' score. Back when Grant Hill played, for example, Sports Illustrated examined the entrace scores of the basketball team and found that 2 had 1200+ but the rest hovered around 910. Notre Dame, Stanford, Vanderbilt, NWern all do the same thing....as does X and UD. Can't compete otherwise.
What do you want to bet that >80% of the 'occupy' crowd had similar majors?
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12-05-2011, 02:05 PM
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At least when we were in school (back in the day), the Jocks (not all mind you, but let's say the less studious ones) took Phys. Ed...not really a "taxing" major, but at least they had a degree and were qualified to be Phys Ed teachers and coaches at the High school level. These days with "Women's Studies", "Black Studies", and the chance to Make-Up-A- Major in "Independent Studies", a lot of kids come out of college as unprepared for the private sector as when they went into college, only now they're in debt up to their eyeballs and feel they were sold a bill of goods (and, unfortunately, in many cases they were!) When you add that on top of what others have said about how society has promoted a childhood where nobody loses, everyone's a winner and you get a trophy just for showing up, some of these kids are bound to be bitter and resentful to find out the real world doesn't work that way. So our "Educators", as well as parents, have failed to prepare a large segment of our youth for the harsh realities of the world that will confront them as they step out of Universities into the work place. Given all that has transpired, I just don't hold Academia in as high esteem as many seem to or, obviously, as they hold themselves. Sorry for the rant.
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12-05-2011, 02:45 PM
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FYI...
The UD mens' majors are somewhat predictable and include:
Criminal Justice (1), General Studies (3), Discover Arts (2), Electronic Media (1), Finance & Business Economics (1) and Entrepeneurship (1).
Gavs, Derenbecker and Sanford's bio doesn't list a major. I didn't include the walk-ons.
The UD Girl's majors are surprising as they don't include any General Studies...the Phys Ed of the 2000's:
Math Education (1), Criminal Justice (1), Marketing (1), Exercise Science (1), Engineering (4), Sports Management (3) and Communications/Public Relations (2).
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12-05-2011, 11:39 PM
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Here's a rumor that the Big East will announce its new schools soon. I wouldn't be surprised if Boise State's snub by the BCS is behind it all.
http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/in..._of_addin.html
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12-06-2011, 12:24 AM
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If this be true, they are meeting in NYC to plan for the addition of 5 schools to the conference - and the BE hoops schools are not invited to the meeting. Is that disfunctional or what.
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12-06-2011, 08:44 AM
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At some point, they're going to be right, but I find it comical how many times I've read "The Big East is close to announcing their expansion, could happen as soon as next week" I think that story has been posted in some form or fashion from various sources every week for the last 2 months.
I do wonder what happens to this conference if the BCS shifts away from what it currently is in 2014. Aside from the national title games, the other games are nothing but an effort to grab the most fans in one spot and generate as much money for their city as possible. however, the perception is often that the BCS is or should be more than that, it should be the ultimate reward, how dare you leave out Boise State for Michigan or Virginia Tech. You see this same argument every year b/w the non qualifier or non traditional 2nd team from a BCS conference over the traditional large fan base school that travels well to bowl games.
Those arguments carry some weight, no doubt, despite being contrary to the BCS "real" goal. Aside from the title game, I don't think the BCS is too excited to have teams that travel poorly. The SEC can't be too happy watching unranked teams grab a big bowl spot while their 3rd place, ranked in the top 10 team goes to a lesser bowl.
I've heard the rumors of the BCS scaling back in 2014 to be only the national title game, then allowing the Rose, Orange, Sugar, Fiesta (and possibly Cotton Bowl) to be a bit more selective in who they select. For instance, the Rose Bowl could take the top team from the B10 & P12 as they always have, and seemingly always want to have, unless one of those teams is in the title game. They'd then get the option of filling that spot w/ the 2nd place team from either conference, or top 10 BCS ranked team from any other conference. In theory, it would open things up a bit more, but in reality it would likely shut the "little" guy out even more, the Big East's bowl tie ins would likely get even worse, the SEC & B10s bowl tie-ins would get stronger.
The foundation laid by the 2014 BCS will potentially have as great an impact on the landscape of college football as the current conference shuffle is having. Potentially, the additions of these schools to what remains of the Big East could happen despite the carot being essentially ripped away from them after 1 season.
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12-06-2011, 10:04 AM
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IMO the BCS format was an attempt to put some sort of imprimatur on a D-1 National Champion without going to a playoff system. This allowed the historic relationship the Bowl Committees had with the major conferences to continue with only minor tweaking. However, since the BCS has not really quashed dissatisfaction among those seeking a playoff format (similar to those that exist for other FB divisions) and may have actually raised consternation among others who actually see an unfair, biased approach in Bowl selections, the Powers that be may just decide to go back to the old way of doing things (Conference tie-ins) and dispense with the charade of selecting teams for the major bowls based on "merit". It looks that the Bowl sponsors have come (or are coming) to the realization that the BE and ACC play a less exciting brand of FB than the SEC, Big 10, Big XII and Pac 12. Moreover, core teams in the BE and ACC (being more BB centric) don't travel all that well to Bowl game venues and the Chambers of Commerce that help support these endeavors want to see packed hotel rooms, restaurants and bars, while the TV sponsors want a huge number of "eyeballs" watching the games. As we all know, it's the money driving all this and if the BCS format doesn't deliver on it's promise of quelling descent on the crowning of a National Champion and it causes consternation among fans over the "fairness" of the Bowl selection process, why continue the ruse?
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12-06-2011, 10:33 AM
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Exciting Football...
Originally Posted by Bat'71
IMO the BCS format was an attempt to put some sort of imprimatur on a D-1 National Champion without going to a playoff system. This allowed the historic relationship the Bowl Committees had with the major conferences to continue with only minor tweaking. However, since the BCS has not really quashed dissatisfaction among those seeking a playoff format (similar to those that exist for other FB divisions) and may have actually raised consternation among others who actually see an unfair, biased approach in Bowl selections, the Powers that be may just decide to go back to the old way of doing things (Conference tie-ins) and dispense with the charade of selecting teams for the major bowls based on "merit". It looks that the Bowl sponsors have come (or are coming) to the realization that the BE and ACC play a less exciting brand of FB than the SEC, Big 10, Big XII and Pac 12. Moreover, core teams in the BE and ACC (being more BB centric) don't travel all that well to Bowl game venues and the Chambers of Commerce that help support these endeavors want to see packed hotel rooms, restaurants and bars, while the TV sponsors want a huge number of "eyeballs" watching the games. As we all know, it's the money driving all this and if the BCS format doesn't deliver on it's promise of quelling descent on the crowning of a National Champion and it causes consternation among fans over the "fairness" of the Bowl selection process, why continue the ruse?
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Bat, you are probably right....the BE and ACC do not play the exciting brand of FB typical of the big four BCS conferences. Recognition of that "fact" might be the trigger for another round of realignment.
Here's how: One (or more) teams in the ACC are not at all happy with the level of ACC FB. FSU is mentioned most often as being dissatisfied. From what I've read there is a growing faction of FSU fans/boosters, etc., that wants to see FSU in the SEC.
If such a transition were to come to pass, that puts pressure on the ACC for the first time...changing the ACC from the predator to the prey. The ACC would then be in the position of needing to add teams.....Rutgers and UConn would be candidates, I think, disrupting yet again a "new" Big East.
Seem likely that within five years all the original BE FB schools will be eslewhere.
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12-06-2011, 01:55 PM
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I see your point, UAC, and it would probably make sense for something to play out along those lines if the BCS format, as currently constituted, stays in place beyond 2013. However, does the move to a Big Four or Five Conference configuration make any sense if the BCS simply morphs into a single Bowl game to match the top two teams (as determined by the current practice) against each other?
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12-06-2011, 02:32 PM
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Dominoes rearranged
"The Big East is set to add Boise State, San Diego State, SMU, UCF and Houston as it begins to rebuild its league . . .
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...ing-conference
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12-06-2011, 02:48 PM
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http://brett-mcmurphy.blogs.cbssport...32522/33728643
On CBS as well.
It still baffles me what the Big East has become. At one point it was a solid east coast conference. Sure Miami dominated, but they dominated college football in general, VTech was an up and comer, BC, Syracuse & WVU were traditionally solid, if not great, etc.... Now it stretches from one the New England states, down to close to Tijuana
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12-06-2011, 03:48 PM
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The BCS is a joke, as is the Big East. Last year the automatic qualifier from the Big East was a four loss team which wasn't even in the Top 25 of the BCS standings. This year West Virginia is 23rd in the BCS standings. Then the BCS Bowls pass over the 7th and 8th ranked teams in favor of the 11th and 13th ranked teams simply because they are bigger names and/or travel better. In regard to the Big East, I hope Boise State joins them and then UC and Louisville and/or UConn and Rutgers leave. Someone said these administrators are very smart people. I'm not so sure about that. But, of course, you might have some other not so smart administrators (from ESPN) throwing a lot of money at a conference that doesn't deserve it, so it may all work out in the end - not because the parties are so smart, but because none of them are very smart.
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12-06-2011, 04:09 PM
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The BE, sort of like the Pioneer League...
Originally Posted by Medford
http://brett-mcmurphy.blogs.cbssport...32522/33728643
On CBS as well.
It still baffles me what the Big East has become. At one point it was a solid east coast conference. Sure Miami dominated, but they dominated college football in general, VTech was an up and comer, BC, Syracuse & WVU were traditionally solid, if not great, etc.... Now it stretches from one the New England states, down to close to Tijuana
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....coast-to-coast, border to border
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12-06-2011, 04:26 PM
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May be that it's the fans that aren't smart...
Originally Posted by longtimefan
The BCS is a joke, as is the Big East. Last year the automatic qualifier from the Big East was a four loss team which wasn't even in the Top 25 of the BCS standings. This year West Virginia is 23rd in the BCS standings. Then the BCS Bowls pass over the 7th and 8th ranked teams in favor of the 11th and 13th ranked teams simply because they are bigger names and/or travel better. In regard to the Big East, I hope Boise State joins them and then UC and Louisville and/or UConn and Rutgers leave. Someone said these administrators are very smart people. I'm not so sure about that. But, of course, you might have some other not so smart administrators (from ESPN) throwing a lot of money at a conference that doesn't deserve it, so it may all work out in the end - not because the parties are so smart, but because none of them are very smart.
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BCS or no BCS....from what I've read there is an insatiable appetite for college FB on TV in the U.S. The money that ESPN throws around comes from advertisers, which comes from us.
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12-06-2011, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
BCS or no BCS....from what I've read there is an insatiable appetite for college FB on TV in the U.S. The money that ESPN throws around comes from advertisers, which comes from us.
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I just can't believe there's a big market out there for games like San Diego State vs Central Florida, SMU vs UConn, or Rutgers vs Houston (in most years).
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12-06-2011, 04:53 PM
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I just can't believe all these schools will still be commtted to the BE in 2013 when they supposedly will begin playing each other. I have to wonder if their agreement automatically dissolves if the auto bid is revoked. Or if the Big12 comes calling.
It's a house of cards.
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12-06-2011, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
I just can't believe there's a big market out there for games like San Diego State vs Central Florida, SMU vs UConn, or Rutgers vs Houston (in most years).
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I guess the proof will be in the next TV contract the Big East signs. How is it shaped, how is it divided amongst the football only, non football, and the schools that will play both? How does it compare to what the SEC, B10 & P12 are making? How does it compare to what the B12 is making, which is a likely landing point for teams like Louisville, and more importantly how does it compare to the ACC which is probably the biggest challenge to the Big East for pecking order in both Football (bottom of the BCS) and basketball (though how much does the loss of 'Cuse, Pitt & WVU hurt the basketball side?)
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12-06-2011, 04:58 PM
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We'll have to wait and see....
Originally Posted by longtimefan
I just can't believe there's a big market out there for games like San Diego State vs Central Florida, SMU vs UConn, or Rutgers vs Houston (in most years).
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I don't know if there is or not. But, I suspect that you would have said the same thing about South Fla vs Rutgers...or Cincy vs UConn,....schools that were in the BE before the latest blow-up. In May the BE, comprised of those schools, turned down a $1.4 billion TV contract thinking it could do better.
A stupid move, it turns out, but indicative of the kind of money available from TV. It seems reasonable to conclude that the new schools have been presented data from the BE showing the kind of TV revenue they can expect.
The entire collge FB scene is nut, I agree,....indeed, shameful. It will take some sort of catastrophe to shake it up, it seems,.....something like the Penn State debacle surely is not enough.
Closer to home...it does seem as if the "new" BE will soon result in a FB-BB split....which could affect UD.
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12-06-2011, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
I don't know if there is or not. But, I suspect that you would have said the same thing about South Fla vs Rutgers...or Cincy vs UConn,....schools that were in the BE before the latest blow-up. In May the BE, comprised of those schools, turned down a $1.4 billion TV contract thinking it could do better.
A stupid move, it turns out
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My point, exactly. That was very stupid of those administrators, and some have said that is part of the reason Pitt and Syracuse left. And, of course, in May Pitt, West Virginia, and Syracuse were part of the equation.
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12-06-2011, 05:23 PM
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The CBS article mentioned that if Air Force declines to join the Big East in football only, that Temple would be a likely replacement as a football-only school.
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12-06-2011, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2
The CBS article mentioned that if Air Force declines to join the Big East in football only, that Temple would be a likely replacement as a football-only school.
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If true, further evidence that the Big East is a joke. They would be taking back a team which they kicked out several years ago, a team which just lost to Bowling Green, Toledo, and Ohio University, and a team which has never won the MAC.
Last edited by longtimefan; 12-06-2011 at 05:40 PM..
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12-06-2011, 06:06 PM
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Lol Temple as football-only? Puke...
How are the basketball schools taking this in stride? There MUST be something we just don't know about behind the scenes.
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12-06-2011, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
Lol Temple as football-only? Puke...
How are the basketball schools taking this in stride? There MUST be something we just don't know about behind the scenes.
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Can't imagine the basketball schools are too thrilled with SMU, Houston, and Central Florida. They must think there's more money in it for them to stay put.
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12-06-2011, 06:30 PM
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BE BB schools....
Originally Posted by hawkoooo
Lol Temple as football-only? Puke...
How are the basketball schools taking this in stride? There MUST be something we just don't know about behind the scenes.
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.....probably the BE BB schools are waiting it out. But, for sure they have had their meetings and have a Plan A, B, etc., if they decide or are forced to split.
I have always heard that Villanova and Georgetown are the big dogs that call the shots. Seton Hall and PC will just go along....less sure about SJU, MU and DU.
Interesting, I think,....a few years ago Ted K. "carefully" selected peer schools that UD should be compared with...about a dozen. As of the latest AP poll, four of Ted's peers are in the top 25: Xavier, Marquette, Creighton and Gonzaga.
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12-06-2011, 06:46 PM
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12-06-2011, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
I don't know if there is or not. But, I suspect that you would have said the same thing about South Fla vs Rutgers...or Cincy vs UConn,....schools that were in the BE before the latest blow-up. In May the BE, comprised of those schools, turned down a $1.4 billion TV contract thinking it could do better.
A stupid move, it turns out, but indicative of the kind of money available from TV. It seems reasonable to conclude that the new schools have been presented data from the BE showing the kind of TV revenue they can expect.
The entire collge FB scene is nut, I agree,....indeed, shameful. It will take some sort of catastrophe to shake it up, it seems,.....something like the Penn State debacle surely is not enough.
Closer to home...it does seem as if the "new" BE will soon result in a FB-BB split....which could affect UD.
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Well, UAC, I see it differently. I think that the "new" BE has given the hybrid conference (one that mixes basketball and football schools) a new lease on life. If this arrangement can hang together for a few years and get some good TV contracts all will be forgotten as far as differing agendas, academic standing and geographical absurdities. But I'd be interested to know why you think the current arrangement will result in a split.
What could eventually kill the "new" BE, IMO, would be defections by UConn, Rutgers, Louisville and maybe even Cincinnati. If any two of those four schools leave, it might be too much to overcome.
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12-06-2011, 09:56 PM
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Could be....
Originally Posted by bobber
Well, UAC, I see it differently. I think that the "new" BE has given the hybrid conference (one that mixes basketball and football schools) a new lease on life. If this arrangement can hang together for a few years and get some good TV contracts all will be forgotten as far as differing agendas, academic standing and geographical absurdities. But I'd be interested to know why you think the current arrangement will result in a split.
What could eventually kill the "new" BE, IMO, would be defections by UConn, Rutgers, Louisville and maybe even Cincinnati. If any two of those four schools leave, it might be too much to overcome.
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You may well be right Bobber. A wise man doesn't feel too strongly about any opinions he may have re the Big East.....other than the fact that the conference has been very badly managed to allow itself to deteriorate as it has.
Certainly, the BE hybrid model has not worked well for the FB schools. Had they split from the BB schools a few years ago,...i.e., after the first AC raid but well before the most recent....and added four from the likes of UCF, TCU, SMU, UH, BYU, Boise, then the conference would have been relatively strong. At the time the BE was about an average BCS league.
But, the BB schools would have blocked any such move....that's why the split should have occurred first. This is all about football, not basketball. Judging from Pitino's remarks, he still doesn't seem to get that.
Whatever, you're probably right...so long as the BB schools benefit financially and the FB schools see some benefit to having good BB schools, the group may survive.
But, since UL and UC would be much better off in the Big 12; and RU and UC much better off in the ACC....should those moves occur there may be no benefit to retaining the hybrid model, as you suggest.
I'd love to see UConn in the ACC. I think both UC and the ACC would benefit.
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12-07-2011, 12:28 AM
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Boise State getting sent to Las Vegas AGAIN with an 11-1 record?!?!!!
BSU should take the Big East invite, just to guarantee two years of playing in a respectable bowl against worthy competition.
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12-07-2011, 08:59 AM
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I don't know how accurate this is, but I read somewhere that the TV deal the Big East turned down was primarily driven by basketball, with the basketball side getting 2/3rds of the money and football getting 1/3. Kind of makes sense why schools like Pitt would think they could do better, knowing on the grand scheme of things, football generates bigger revenues.
If that is true, the obviously losing 'Cuse, Pitt & WVU in basketball is a huge blow over the gains in Houston, SMU & UCF. On the football side, Boise is a push at best vs WVU, though the other schools in volume may be worth more than Pitt & 'Cuse. The numbers I've seen rumored are anywhere from 3 - 4.5 mil per team in football. Larger than they'd get in CUSA or the MWC, but drastically behind the B10, SEC, P12, ACC & B12.
ESPN now has big investments in Texas (and hence the B12) the ACC & the SEC. The Big East has been a stable in Big Monday, perhaps a big reason for their growth in the 80s. It wouldn't surprise me to see ESPN push the Big East out of the way for a slate of ACC & SEC games on Monday nights in a couple of years.
the other TV problem the Big East has is the constant rumors that Louisville is going to the B12 in the next year or 2, as well as UConn's non too secret desire to land in the ACC. Who's going to make a big commitment to a league in a state of flux, a conference that may potentially lose 2 of its most visable (if not the most visable) basketball programs and arguably the best football program going forward (Louisville)?
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12-07-2011, 10:17 AM
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The NY Post's Lenn Robins is less than impressed by the proposed "New" Big East and doesn't believe the TV contracts will be nearly as lucrative as the one they shot down this past year. http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/colle...l5iCGO2BER5oRM
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Mad Props to Bat'71 For This Totally Excellent Post:
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12-07-2011, 11:29 AM
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This article has a fascinating map of the "new" Big East. It also points out that more teams will likely be coming and going through the conference's revolving door, so the new Big East isn't done yet....not by a darn sight.
http://www.the700level.com/12/06/11/...14&feedID=8510
PS - The Salmon of Capistrano? I must be losing it!
Last edited by bobber; 12-07-2011 at 11:33 AM..
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12-07-2011, 03:12 PM
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The whole BE thing is nuts, I realize,...
Originally Posted by bobber
This article has a fascinating map of the "new" Big East. It also points out that more teams will likely be coming and going through the conference's revolving door, so the new Big East isn't done yet....not by a darn sight.
http://www.the700level.com/12/06/11/...14&feedID=8510
PS - The Salmon of Capistrano? I must be losing it!
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....I really hope to see Rutgers and UConn in the ACC someday,...soon,.....the fit is very good on all measures. But, meanwhile, since FB is entertainment to me,..not a life-and-death matter,....the prospect of seeing games against the likes of SMU, Boise, SDSU, the service academies (hoping they join) sounds entertaining.
Big East FB never was and never would have been a match for the SEC, Big Ten or Big 12. I think it could have matched the ACC and maybe even the PAC 12. Indeed, even with the new line-up it might match the latter two. But never the three power FB conferences.
High school football draws about as well in the south and southwest as the MAC...not as well as the BE; but there is more interest in HS FB in those areas than in BE FB in its region. Just the way it is.
But while it's true that football in the SEC schools, most Big Ten and Big 12 schools is the best, by far, it's also true that those schools much more than others reflect the gross distortion of college athletics that we see today. To the SEC (and Big 12) schools and the regions they represent, generally speaking, football is far more important than academic and research prominence.
While Big Ten FB is also a distortion, the Big Ten schools have managed to sustain a very high level of academic/research prominence. It's interesting, though, that among the top 50 national universities in the country, including private and public, more than half don't play FBS football, many don't play Div 1 FB at any level, quite a few play Div III and some don't play FB at all.
Thus, it's clear that there are major differences in opinion as to the role of athletics generally and football specifically among our best academic institutions.
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12-07-2011, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
Big East FB never was and never would have been a match for the SEC, Big Ten or Big 12.
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He's finally coming around.
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12-07-2011, 03:55 PM
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Yeah but,....
Originally Posted by longtimefan
He's finally coming around.
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.......( I didn't mean it. )
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12-07-2011, 04:13 PM
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I do hope that the basketball schools have had some measure put in the by laws where they control the future of the conference if more of the current football schools depart. What happens if Louisville, UConn & Rutgers all depart in the next 5 seasons? Would Providence, Villinova, Marquette, G'town, etc... be content to be linked to USF, UCF, Houston & SMU going forward?
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12-07-2011, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford
I do hope that the basketball schools have had some measure put in the by laws where they control the future of the conference if more of the current football schools depart. What happens if Louisville, UConn & Rutgers all depart in the next 5 seasons? Would Providence, Villinova, Marquette, G'town, etc... be content to be linked to USF, UCF, Houston & SMU going forward?
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You bring up an interesting point. What happens if teams start to make plans so that it brings other teams down? I think at some point the NCAA needs to either make a special rule that there are no conferences in college football(ideal) or have no ties between the basketball and football side. If we start to water down a bball conference for football money what good is the bball conference? I hope that if push comes to shove and football gets a special category(somehow in fairness to Title IX) that UD gets on the right chair for bball moving forward.
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12-08-2011, 01:37 PM
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These reports say Air Force will not join the Big East. If true, my money says Navy will not likely join either. This has import for the A10 because now the search continues for football schools, meaning Temple is, yet again, going to be considered. And likely, yet again, be blackballed by Villanova.
Also, on a side note, several coaches that have made the Texas football programs (SMU and Houston) desirable to the Big East are rumored to be on the cusp of being hired away by BCS schools. If so, those schools may....may....slide back into mediocrity.
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-footbal...ast-conference
http://www.gazette.com/sports/mike-129836-gen-west.html
Last edited by bobber; 12-08-2011 at 01:51 PM..
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12-08-2011, 01:59 PM
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This BE move has the smell of desperation about it - the smell of death. They can put all the lipstick they want on this pig, but it is still a pig. Possibility of 19 teams for hoops in 2013? Unreal. All for the BE BCS AQ? I predict a lot of these new schools will rue this day in about 3-5 years - if not sooner.
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