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10-20-2015, 12:10 PM
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I doubt the lawsuit is dropped. Ginsberg had to know his chances of getting the TRO were not good and I doubt he would have taken on DP as a client based solely on winning a TRO. So I expect the lawsuit to continue to a conclusion of some type.
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10-20-2015, 12:21 PM
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If Dyshawn returns and the lawsuit continues, he'll go down in history as the most expensive athletic scholarship ever given...anywhere.
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10-20-2015, 12:25 PM
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San Diego, there are so many different players at fault here. From the UD Administration to the Federal Government to PC philosophy that runs rampant through Academia to a lack of common sense to Pierre to the girl involved to Title IX overreach to Title IX Coordinators etc. The percent of fault varies. One thing that is growing in my disgust is Dan Curran's disappearing act. A good leader grabs the bull by the horns. This guy has went into the witness protection program. Not a peep out of him. Overall, UD selected the Federal Government over right and wrong and a student. I come from small business, so I have a big distrust of large institutions because they will crush you any second they want to. This whole case is a classic case of large institutions running amuck. They do not care who they pi$$ off. Someone mentioned a while back that UD will throw throw the basketball team and Archie under the bus to stay in the good graces of the Federal Government. That is a true fact. What can I do about it? I can decide on who gets my money.
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10-20-2015, 12:52 PM
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What do you expect any member of UD to say? They are restricted by what they can legally say about current/former students and are limited on what they want to say when involved in litigation. They're getting killed in places like this board because the only statements heard are coming from Pierre's attorney and UD has their hands tied on what they can say in response. I imagine that's precisely why Pierre's attorney keeps making public statements: they get the dynamic.
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10-20-2015, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
If Dyshawn returns and the lawsuit continues, he'll go down in history as the most expensive athletic scholarship ever given...anywhere.
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Ed O'bannon
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10-20-2015, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
If Dyshawn returns and the lawsuit continues, he'll go down in history as the most expensive athletic scholarship ever given...anywhere.
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Cool story. Do tell more.
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10-20-2015, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Just stating the obvious...if you read the reports, to include the Title report...then you should have seen it....
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If you're so well-versed, why not just answer the question?
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10-20-2015, 03:21 PM
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I doubt the law suit ends either. But as long as it remains in Judge Rose courtroom the chances Pierre prevails at trial appear slim. And Slim is packing bags to get out of town. Rose already shot down most of the arguments that would be made at trial and said Pierre is unlikely to prevail. It would be much different if he said the facts were good and he may be prevail but fails to meet the other criteria for a TRO such as harm. That he shot him down on every one of the four points appears to severely diminish the odds at trial.
I still don't think it ends the court battle a year or two from now.
And UD may well make their policy and process more "ideal".
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10-20-2015, 04:39 PM
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10-20-2015, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Angry John
San Diego, there are so many different players at fault here. From the UD Administration to the Federal Government to PC philosophy that runs rampant through Academia to a lack of common sense to Pierre to the girl involved to Title IX overreach to Title IX Coordinators etc. The percent of fault varies. One thing that is growing in my disgust is Dan Curran's disappearing act. A good leader grabs the bull by the horns. This guy has went into the witness protection program. Not a peep out of him. Overall, UD selected the Federal Government over right and wrong and a student. I come from small business, so I have a big distrust of large institutions because they will crush you any second they want to. This whole case is a classic case of large institutions running amuck. They do not care who they pi$$ off. Someone mentioned a while back that UD will throw throw the basketball team and Archie under the bus to stay in the good graces of the Federal Government. That is a true fact. What can I do about it? I can decide on who gets my money.
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Dan Curran is FIGMO...don't expect anything decisive, controversial or revealing from the doctor, just indifference or vagueness!
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10-20-2015, 09:27 PM
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So much for his legacy. Typical of the plastic people that are in charge of many of our nation's institutions today. Take your golden parachute and ride off into retirement while the horse barn burns down. Totally sad.
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10-21-2015, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Angry John
So much for his legacy. Typical of the plastic people that are in charge of many of our nation's institutions today. Take your golden parachute and ride off into retirement while the horse barn burns down. Totally sad.
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A one semester suspension for a basketball player is far from the barn burning down from the view of the university administration. Let's try to keep some perspective.
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10-21-2015, 10:33 AM
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Sure would be nice if someone (Jablonski) would ask DP's talkative attorney if his client intends to return Dec 22nd.
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10-21-2015, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DGO67
Dan Curran is FIGMO...don't expect anything decisive, controversial or revealing from the doctor, just indifference or vagueness!
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for those of us who might be acronym-challenged - - FIGMO?
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10-21-2015, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Elwood
for those of us who might be acronym-challenged - - FIGMO?
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A simple google search - "F" it, got my orders.
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10-21-2015, 01:47 PM
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Barn burning would be the following:
1. Pierre transfers.
2. Other schools use this against UD in recruiting.
3. Archie gets mad and takes another job next year.
Yes, this scenario could happen and that would be bad. It would be Roger Brown Part II. I hope this does not happen. I would like to see Pierre calm down and realize his best case situation is to stay at UD. I also hope Archie has worked out a game plan with Pierre and is not too mad at the situation.
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10-21-2015, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Angry John
Barn burning would be the following:
1. Pierre transfers.
2. Other schools use this against UD in recruiting.
3. Archie gets mad and takes another job next year.
Yes, this scenario could happen and that would be bad. It would be Roger Brown Part II. I hope this does not happen. I would like to see Pierre calm down and realize his best case situation is to stay at UD. I also hope Archie has worked out a game plan with Pierre and is not too mad at the situation.
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Pierre has made his decision. Will stay in Canada until December. 😏
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10-21-2015, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Angry John
Barn burning would be the following:
1. Pierre transfers.
2. Other schools use this against UD in recruiting.
3. Archie gets mad and takes another job next year.
Yes, this scenario could happen and that would be bad. It would be Roger Brown Part II. I hope this does not happen. I would like to see Pierre calm down and realize his best case situation is to stay at UD. I also hope Archie has worked out a game plan with Pierre and is not too mad at the situation.
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Sure, that'd be difficult for the men's basketball program. Maybe. We can survive Pierre transferring, and I'm sure other schools use other things to recruit against UD anyways. I doubt this would change that much. Maybe Archie leaves (I hope he doesn't), but that doesn't necessarily mean the end is nigh depending on who is hired and the actions taken in response. That's all a lot of maybes and worst case scenarios anyways. Maybe DP comes back 2nd semester and we make the Final Four. Who knows.
If I'm the President of the university (God help us all), barn burning would be losing accreditation or the endowment dried up. Basketball is important to the school and to many of its alumni, but UD is a lot bigger than the basketball program and any one player or coach. It's not going to receive the death penalty from the NCAA or anything. This isn't the end of the world.
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10-21-2015, 10:22 PM
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The basketball returning to the days of JOB isn't a major event in the legacy of the university president.
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10-22-2015, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
The basketball returning to the days of JOB isn't a major event in the legacy of the university president.
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And that's unfortunately the problem. They've never understood the role of national exposure via basketball court success. Whatever you do ...please don't fan the flames of success, after all do we really want that kind of exposure?
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10-22-2015, 07:05 AM
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I am laughing at UDDoug's ridiculous remark. UD Basketball is the University's biggest marketing tool. You don't want your biggest marketing tool weakened.
Last edited by Angry John; 10-22-2015 at 07:10 AM..
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10-22-2015, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Angry John
I am laughing at UDDoug's ridiculous remark. UD Basketball is the University's biggest marketing tool. You don't want your biggest marketing tool weakened.
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If basketball is the main reason kids attend UD, then why has the student section gotten smaller and smaller over the past 3-4 years?
Dare I suggest that the reason UD's admission standards have risen, along with their tuition, may have something to do with the advances seen in the Business, Allied Health and Engineering schools...?!
...oh, that and St. Patrick's Day!
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10-22-2015, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
If basketball is the main reason kids attend UD, then why has the student section gotten smaller and smaller over the past 3-4 years?
Dare I suggest that the reason UD's admission standards have risen, along with their tuition, may have something to do with the advances seen in the Business, Allied Health and Engineering schools...?!
...oh, that and St. Patrick's Day!
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Past 2 UD Freshman classes have been the 2 largest in UD history. The success of basketball team and the growth of socal media is what caused all of the students to even hear of UD. Without a doubt, the success of the basketball program is huge for the university and the community.
The record high in applicants is due to the basketball success and seeing the celebrations on campus
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10-22-2015, 09:19 AM
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Sence of community
I and My two Children are UD grads. The kids both in the last 5 years. For both of them they listened and watched me over the past 40 years stay in constant touch with my UD friends and go on Golf trips and to the ATen tourney each year. I came to UD from NY, I was not a good student and it was a long way from Home my only knowledge of the school was the NIT and going to watch them play. My son applied to Indiana and part of the application was an essay where they asked him to express what he wanted in a college experience. He asked for my help and I said, You want to feel about the place like I do, It gave me my best friends for Life, and it stills feel safe and warm to go back. He ripped up the essay and never applied. he was a Flyer. The 3 of us attend every Home BB game and we are on our way to Orlando as a family. We drive thru the GHETTO and tell some of the great stories that took place in what we think is one of the Wonders of the world. The boys were back for our 40th this year and we walked thru the GHETTO and it felt great. We don't spend time talking about the Business class we took, we do of course make fun of some of the Profs but not a lot of time on academics. The boys are all very successful and built business and run companys and with all the ups and downs in life the UD experience brings the smile and energy to let ya get away for a while. Place is special, many of us did go there for basketball and the Ghetto and it worked out really well. The Flyer news had a story about not calling the Ghetto the Ghetto. Take away the Ghetto and BB and lets see how that enrollment goes. Be a shame to let the liberals start tearing away at something as pure and harmless as the UD Ghetto.
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10-22-2015, 09:25 AM
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Correlation vs Causation
Again, if they come here for the basketball, why aren't they at the games?
And could the size of the freshman class have anything to do with the increased priority in the recruitment of Asian and Middle Eastern students? Who don't care about basketball. Or are all 7500 students on our campus basketball junkies?
Basketball, IMRO, gives us name recognition, which is good. But I bet less than 50 students/year come here for because of the basketball team. With 8 years of teaching at UD under my belt, and a pretty good idea of what my students want from their University, I have to much respect for their abilities than to think they'd be so shallow as to not put their education a couple notches ahead of a basketball game...that they won't attend.
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10-22-2015, 09:34 AM
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Comments re the last few posts...
In no special order....
1) Outside the mid-west the University of Dayton is largely unknown. To the extent that it is known, ~ 100% of that recognition is due to the success of Flyer basketball...men's, of course,...but increasingly women's as well. There is no other PR and/or marketing tool that even comes close to the importance of basketball, whether or not the student section is "full" or completely empty.
2) Any increase in UD's admission standards is so small as to be insignificant. Essentially, they have remained the same for many years. The reason why the admission rate has decreased from ~ 80-85% to ~50-60% over the last decade, or so, is do nearly doubling of the applications, which results from the Internet.....i.e., kids apply to far more schools than they used to.
The meaningful figure to look at is the academic creds of UD's freshman class, i.e., SAT/ACT scores and HS class rank. According the annual "Fact Book" produced every year by UD, by such measures UD's incoming students are about the same as they were 10-15 years ago.
UD's large freshman classes are another thing entirely. Over the last 10+ years UD has become a far more attractive option for students and parents. Improvements in UD's capital infrastructure and the environment in the university park area are amazing. UD has become a very nice place.
One last thought: Re trouble with BB players having the potential of spoiling our reemergence on the national scene, the Kav affair, last year's thugs, and now the current suspension...no one of which is a killer,...represent a disturbing pattern that is troubling. It's got to stop lest our beloved U's BB program earns itself a reputation that becomes damaging and that no one wants.
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10-22-2015, 09:53 AM
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Rollo, Most don't come because of academics. I live in Columbus and the school is not highly thought of for academics other than Engineering. Its the environment, Ghetto and a place where a kid who may not be the best student dosent feel intimidated and not left out.
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10-22-2015, 09:54 AM
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When my oldest son was choosing a college, he had 2 requirements...(1) he wanted to attend a school he 'could be proud of' academically and (2) one that had major D1 football...that was it.
In the Dayton area, that really limited his choices to UC and tOSU...although I pushed Purdue just a little.
tOSU won, and if a case could be made for the success of an athletic team being a driving force for enrollment, tOSU is a great case study as the south endzone student section has expanded by >10,000 over the past 15+ years. Obviously, kids want to experience tOSU football...and that can't be argued.
I'm not convinced that UD basketball is anything more than a seasonal marketing tool for recruiting...but I am - as always - open minded and looking to be proven wrong...a first!
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10-22-2015, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by flybye
Rollo, Most don't come because of academics.
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Respectfully, I disagree. Kids/parents don't finance $55k/year so their kids can be sexually harassed while receiving a subpar education and beer belly. I know a lot of UD students and have sat thru enough meetings to know that these kids are being challenged and are rising to those challenges...academics at UD in 2015 aren't what they were in 1975 when UD's tuition was a very affordable $2k.
Originally Posted by flybye
I live in Columbus and the school is not highly thought of for academics other than Engineering.
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That's an unfortunate truth and one UD is aware of and trying to change. But Columbus has so many great colleges within 30 miles (Denison) I can see why UD isn't looked at very highly in and around the I-270 loop.
Originally Posted by flybye
Its the environment,Ghetto and a place where a kid who may not be the best student doesn't feel intimidated and not left out.
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That's why I went there...but if my HS son or daughter come to UD, it d*mn well better be for different reasons simple because UD offers so much more opportunities today than ever imagined in the 80's.
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10-22-2015, 10:13 AM
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Its is very important. I was In Memphis and 4000 showed up. So the success of the program is important. I Hope the New president can uplift the Academic standing of the school but I hope we never lose sight of the kid who wants a great experience and not just Academics. The Ivy league kids cant wait to get out... we cant wait to get back. That's Ok its SPECIAL. Columbus people ask how do they get that tuition and keep the growing the enrollment. I don't say because Condoleeezza Rice teaches there, I say its hard to explain but its a place where we all fit.
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10-22-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
In no special order....
1) Outside the mid-west the University of Dayton is largely unknown. To the extent that it is known, ~ 100% of that recognition is due to the success of Flyer basketball...men's, of course,...but increasingly women's as well. There is no other PR and/or marketing tool that even comes close to the importance of basketball, whether or not the student section is "full" or completely empty.
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I think your ~100% is a bit overdone. Do the partnerships with UDRI, GE, Wright Patt, Chaminade University not have any recognition? What about the Marianist connection to High Schools around the country? If that is all less than a measurable percentage, I'd be surprised.
Originally Posted by UACFlyer
2) Any increase in UD's admission standards is so small as to be insignificant. Essentially, they have remained the same for many years. The reason why the admission rate has decreased from ~ 80-85% to ~50-60% over the last decade, or so, is do nearly doubling of the applications, which results from the Internet.....i.e., kids apply to far more schools than they used to.
The meaningful figure to look at is the academic creds of UD's freshman class, i.e., SAT/ACT scores and HS class rank. According the annual "Fact Book" produced every year by UD, by such measures UD's incoming students are about the same as they were 10-15 years ago.
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Agreed on the percentages. However, looking at the factbook, SAT scores trend the same as the national average, but ACT scores are up 5%, while the national average is a slight decrease. Additionally, the average HS rank is up in that same timeframe.
Originally Posted by UACFlyer
UD's large freshman classes are another thing entirely. Over the last 10+ years UD has become a far more attractive option for students and parents. Improvements in UD's capital infrastructure and the environment in the university park area are amazing. UD has become a very nice place.
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Very nice yes, but with a huge price tag. Tuition has almost doubled in the last 10 years, and tripled since I was a Freshman in 1996. I think it's worth it, but will be hard pressed to send both my boys there, even with the 20K average financial assistance.
Originally Posted by UACFlyer
One last thought: Re trouble with BB players having the potential of spoiling our reemergence on the national scene, the Kav affair, last year's thugs, and now the current suspension...no one of which is a killer,...represent a disturbing pattern that is troubling. It's got to stop lest our beloved U's BB program earns itself a reputation that becomes damaging and that no one wants.
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What has happened here is nothing compared to the wake left behind Larry Brown, Calipari; and the issues at Indiana and Lousiville. Those are disturbing and troubling situations. I don't like it either, but we are very focused on UD Basketball here, and I can't imagine those same kids that know nothing of UD outside the Midwest have any clue what is going on now.
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10-22-2015, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Basketball, IMRO, gives us name recognition, which is good. But I bet less than 50 students/year come here for because of the basketball team. With 8 years of teaching at UD under my belt, and a pretty good idea of what my students want from their University, I have to much respect for their abilities than to think they'd be so shallow as to not put their education a couple notches ahead of a basketball game...that they won't attend.
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If it's anywhere near 50 that come to UD because of the basketball team I would be surprised.
But, ask Donald Trump how important free advertising is. I visited UD only because I remembered them making a Sweet 16 run. Otherwise, I had no idea there even was a college / university in the city of Dayton. So when a friend was making a road trip I thought "sure what the heck." The rest is history.
How many students would otherwise have no clue Dayton even exists? You can send all the trash can fodder you want. After the first few they all look alike. Something needs to make you stand out.
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10-22-2015, 11:12 AM
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Thoughtful post...
Originally Posted by BlueMiniS
I think your ~100% is a bit overdone. Do the partnerships with UDRI, GE, Wright Patt, Chaminade University not have any recognition? What about the Marianist connection to High Schools around the country? If that is all less than a measurable percentage, I'd be surprised.
Agreed on the percentages. However, looking at the factbook, SAT scores trend the same as the national average, but ACT scores are up 5%, while the national average is a slight decrease. Additionally, the average HS rank is up in that same timeframe.
Very nice yes, but with a huge price tag. Tuition has almost doubled in the last 10 years, and tripled since I was a Freshman in 1996. I think it's worth it, but will be hard pressed to send both my boys there, even with the 20K average financial assistance.
What has happened here is nothing compared to the wake left behind Larry Brown, Calipari; and the issues at Indiana and Lousiville. Those are disturbing and troubling situations. I don't like it either, but we are very focused on UD Basketball here, and I can't imagine those same kids that know nothing of UD outside the Midwest have any clue what is going on now.
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All good points, however...
1. In my opinion, the factors you cite, UDRI et al, while important, are largely unrecognized outside the local region. When the Flyers are in an NCAA game on a Sat or Sun millions see that. No comparison.
2. While test scores and class rank have improved slighty, it's just not enough to impact reputation. For a rep spike UD needs a freshman class with 1250 SATs and 35-40% in the top 10% of HS class. We're a long way from that.
3. College cost is a big deal, no doubt.
4. The SMU, UL etc scandals are national events. I'm not suggesting we face anything like that. But I do worry about it becoming "It's always something at UD" catching on. This year had (has) great promise....now there is a shadow. Don't want that sort of thing to become common at UD.
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10-22-2015, 11:54 AM
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The day basketball becomes the most important thing to the university president is the day UD starts losing most if its financial support for things like UDRI. Basketball is a tear drop in the ocean as to what drives the university.
The perception of the engineering school and the business school mean much more. And when they ask applicants, admitted and accepted students why UD, athletics and basketball barely register. Academics, community, the ghetto (er student neighborhood), the Davis Center, Flyer Enterprises all rank higher. A sizable portion of the applicants today )nearly half) don't even know UD plays Division I sports, despite the Elite Eight. The students like the parties and exposure an Elite Eight bring, but day in and day out they dont care in general. Less than 25% will go to more than five games in their four years. And as Rollo can attest, the basketball players aren't exactly in high regard by their fellow students.
UD does not need the two largest classes in its history. This years class is "disappointing" because it is too big. They want to shrink the size. And if basketball were the cause, then why is it that the upward trends started in the darkest days of basketball.
I bet Dr Spina spends less than 10 percent of his time on athletics. Probably much less than that, and nearly all if it will be in budgets.
Lastly, I guess Brother Fitz was the worst university president in the history of the world.
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10-22-2015, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Angry John
I am laughing at UDDoug's ridiculous remark. UD Basketball is the University's biggest marketing tool. You don't want your biggest marketing tool weakened.
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And to take it a step farther, Elite 8's are the nitro that makes the whole thing really work.
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10-22-2015, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
And when they ask applicants, admitted and accepted students why UD, athletics and basketball barely register. Academics, community, the ghetto (er student neighborhood), the Davis Center, Flyer Enterprises all rank higher. A sizable portion of the applicants today )nearly half) don't even know UD plays Division I sports, despite the Elite Eight. The students like the parties and exposure an Elite Eight bring, but day in and day out they dont care in general. Less than 25% will go to more than five games in their four years. And as Rollo can attest, the basketball players aren't exactly in high regard by their fellow students.
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I picture my wife, who doesn't even know that there is such a thing as D1 vs. D2, etc. So I hear what you're saying.
But does her dad know? Yessireebob. And who's guiding her decision?
To me the marginal element of a decision is far too underappreciated. Would a large % of students go to UD if they did not have an engineering school? No, therefore the fact that we have an engineering school is THE MOST important element. We should focus all our resources there. But wait, UC has an engineering school too.
So does UC have UDRI? No, therefore UDRI is THE MOST important element. We should focus all our resources there. But wait, UC has something similar(?).
So does UC have a beautiful campus? No (?), therefore . . .
I think what gets overlooked is that many of these elements of the complex decision are just table stakes. You don't even get invited to the table without these elements. So what can UD do at the margin to attract positive attention? UD athletics is one of many things, and happens to draw much brand recognition with tens of millions of people, some of which are only college BB fans for a couple weeks a year.
It will not automatically lead to a great student body, but it's a great tool in the toolbox to pick up quite a few students at the margin every year you otherwise would not have had.
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10-22-2015, 12:51 PM
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I wonder how many prospective students we lose - despite the recent March headliners - because daytonuniversity.com doesn't exist?
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10-22-2015, 01:08 PM
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I am not arguing it is UNimportant to a school like UD. This isn't the University of Chicago or MIT. But I think there may be surprise at how few parents give a rats when guiding their kids on college choice.
UD was attracting record numbers of class applicants, higher quality applicants well before an Elite Eight.
I am arguing that the university presidents tenure being judged based on whether or not the basketball team is successful, or whether or not the university suspends a basketball player. I think those who may argue this is abig issue in the success of UD as an academic institution are overstating the role athletics actually plays. While not MIT, UD is also not Butler which was in danger of entering a death spiral.
It matters to a lot of older alumni. And it matters to some athletic boosters. But it does not rank very high in terms of importance of sources of major university funding.
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10-22-2015, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Angry John
Barn burning would be the following:
1. Pierre transfers.
2. Other schools use this against UD in recruiting.
3. Archie gets mad and takes another job next year.
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Okay, so then someone just lit a match in the chicken coup then?
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10-22-2015, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
In no special order....
1) Outside the mid-west the University of Dayton is largely unknown. To the extent that it is known, ~ 100% of that recognition is due to the success of Flyer basketball...men's, of course,...but increasingly women's as well.
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Respectfully disagree. My son was fortunate enough to just participate in a UD sponsored ACADEMIC trip to NY/NJ (School of Business). It included several networking events, some hosted by UD alumni, some that weren't. They sure as he!! know all about UD's SoB and the type of graduate it's produced. And those events didn't begin with the pep band playing the fight song or bball highlights from the past two years. Same goes for PA and the mid-Atlantic states, Va, Carolinas, etc. Nowhere near "largely unknown".
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10-22-2015, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
All good points, however...
1. In my opinion, the factors you cite, UDRI et al, while important, are largely unrecognized outside the local region.
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Holy smokes! You need to spend a few days at WPAFB!!! The entire Air Force and Dept of Defense is fully aware of the incredible work being done by UDRI and its many collocated employees throughout the DOD. I realize you are prefacing with "my opinion" but you are grossly underestimating the recognition the NON-BASKETBALL side of UD receives across the country and beyond.
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10-22-2015, 02:10 PM
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Guys, ask Dan Curran and or Neil Sullivan the Financial importance of the the Basketball program. Forget the applicants, though it does help but in a school our size the money it brings in makes a huge impact. It Funds the other sports whom all lose money. Schools are cutting back sport programs. Akron loses money on Football and breaks even on BB and had to cancel other sports including BB. If that arena didn't exist we would be in trouble. Be good at a game or at an event to ask Dan about it..
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10-22-2015, 02:33 PM
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Everyone within the U agrees and understands the importance of the men's basketball team to the rest of its athletics...but I think we're talking about the importance of the men's basketball team to those outside and/or considering applying to/attending the U.
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10-22-2015, 03:32 PM
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Ok, I believe the academic/research accomplishments are noteworthy and admirable. But b-ball is a conduit that allows us to broadcast those accomplishments on national media when we are making noise in the NCAA. Those pregame/halftime communications reach many people, not just jocks. UD doesn't get many opportunities to reach the broad audience. Otherwise it's simply eagles talking to their kind. Have no idea how to price all that, but I suppose someone does.
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10-22-2015, 04:04 PM
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The hoops team gets brand recognition out there...and while may not be the deciding factor in a kid coming to UD, it is about the package deal. Kid is interested in UD then sees the E8 run...might be the game changer. I would imagine on UD visits, the athletic programs are discussed as one of the many things to do on campus.
It doesn't help attendance numbers when every game is televised...in HD...number of international students doesn't help...combine that with the increased academic demands mentioned...the demographic of the UD "student" may be different than the years past. Academic first, party second...versus the other way around. Number of home games over winter break, failure to have an in state rival, the previous ridiculous points system, pampered kids that don't want to walk in the cold or take the time to catch the shuttle...
Not stating that it is acceptable, but I think times have changed.
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10-22-2015, 04:06 PM
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God love you Rollo. You are an intellectual individual that has strong beliefs in your principals and viewpoints. I am not saying your wrong, because you are right on many issues. What holds you back at times is the world of academia. The World of PC tries to deny the existance of human nature. It views it as evil. I am sorry to inform you that marketing is a part of human nature. It does motivate human beings to do certain things. Look at the success of the OSU Buckeyes in football and what it has done for the school's enrollment. You can't deny athletic success brings in a certain amount of students.
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10-22-2015, 04:06 PM
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Basketball is a conduit in which those are advertised. But in terms of how those are promoted to people who fund things like UDRI, the Davis Center, engineering school, business school etc, to those who send projects their way, to those who recruit graduates - well let's just that basketball has very little to do with how they know about UD. It isn't why Blackrock, JPMirgan and the like know every student in the Davis Center, why the four largest accounting firms are hosting multiple events a year for UD students, and the same for engineering. It is because those exist, they do well in competitive events.
We are showing our age with old thinking that UD is known because of basketball. Those days are gone. The profile of the school in professional circles is much different. And at high school and other places for attracting applicants.
Athletics and basketball are too ingrained into the fabric of the school, but if they shut down the athletic department or went D3, the school would still succeed.
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10-22-2015, 04:08 PM
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David Jablonski @DavidPJablonski 32m32 minutes ago
Talked to Kendall, Kyle, Scoochie. All expect Dyshawn Pierre back this season but have not asked him directly if he'll return in December.
David Jablonski @DavidPJablonski 32m32 minutes ago Dayton, OH
Kendall said Dyshawn is working out five hours a day back at home.
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10-22-2015, 04:18 PM
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Correct....
SDF is right. The BB publicity opens the window so UD can be seen.
As to Radar's comments re how well UD is known away from the region,
relatively" unknown, I would say. A school over 150 years old that for the first time just past the point where more than 50% of its students are from out of state is pretty local. Indeed, most of UD's students have not just been from Ohio; they've been from the Dayton region.
I think part of that is because our U is named after a city. That's very good PR for the city, not the U,....but I would not want a different name for a second. Nonetheless, I think names like Marquette, Xavier, Villanova, Fordham, etc., are have much better national recognition than names like UD, Saint Louis U., Seattle U., Providence C., etc......of course the names of those cities are known well; but not the names of schools sharing the city name.
Whatever, it's hard to match sports success when it comes to name recognition. I'll bet that if UD had a faculty member win a Nobel Prize the PR would not come close to that of the Flyers making he Final Four.
Re academic PR and related reputation, while UD had been better than just good for quite some time now, as Rollo mentioned, it's unfortunate that our academic reputation needs work. To be sure, reputation is a lagging indicator. Nonetheless, I hope our new president takes a look at that issue and develops a "remedial" plan for improvement.
I've given the matter quite a bit of thought without coming up with any brilliant ideas. I did come up with one clue recently. "Peers" like SLU, FU, MU and a few other Catholics always have higher peer assessment scores than UD. The question is "why?" I took a look at program offerings at those schools and a few more peers as well. One thing stood out: They each offer considerably more doctoral level programs than UD. Doctoral education requires top-notch faculty and facilities that impact undergraduate education...and a school's reputation.
UD's engineering program is a crown jewel. But no other UD school comes close. Aside from engineering UD is a master-level school. I hope Spina works that issue. In my opinion,....opinion,....UD's academic rep across the board would benefit from adding roughly a dozen PhD level programs in the College or Arts and Science.
In addition, it's important to understand the importance of scholarly research on a schools reputation. UDRI's outstanding work is focused on technology, even more specifically on air force problems. That's quite different from scholarly research conducted by senior permanent faculty aided by doctoral candidates. Adding doctoral programs would involve considerably more of the latter...beneficial in my opinion.
Please don't misunderstand. UD will always maintain its undergraduate focus. I'm just suggesting that somewhat more emphasis on graduate education would benefit the U across the board, as regards academic rep and undergraduate education well.
Just opinion.
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10-22-2015, 04:27 PM
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David Jablonski @DavidPJablonski
More on Pierre from Scoochie Smith, who makes excellent use of #TrueTeam.
Jablonski: You have any doubt he's coming back?
SS: Yeah, I'm sure.
Jablonski: You think he's coming back?
SS: For Sure. True Team.
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10-22-2015, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19
David Jablonski @DavidPJablonski
More on Pierre from Scoochie Smith, who makes excellent use of #TrueTeam.
Jablonski: You have any doubt he's coming back?
SS: Yeah, I'm sure.
Jablonski: You think he's coming back?
SS: For Sure. True Team.
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I still have some doubts but you know what? It might just happen.
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10-22-2015, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Angry John
God love you Rollo.
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Aren't you being redundant?
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10-22-2015, 05:08 PM
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It is part of the marketing approach. Beat a dead horse to death. I keep hoping it gets through to you. On a more positive note, I hope the Scooch is right. Bury the hatchet DP and come back and play for the Flyers. In the the mean time if you can make some bucks off of Dandy Dan 's goofball leadership do it.
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10-22-2015, 05:09 PM
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I think all are making valid points on recruiting, that that's exactly MY POINT. These decisions are made at the margin.
"Every" college has smart kids.
"Every" college has parties.
"Every" college has athletics.
"Every" college has a few people on CNN / Time / etc.
So if you say UDRI is important, you're right. As is the basketball program. And the Ghetto. The more things you do well, the wider net you throw.
You don't destroy UDRI to make a better basketball team. But you try to do everything well that you devote resources to.
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10-22-2015, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
Basketball is a conduit in which those are advertised. But in terms of how those are promoted to people who fund things like UDRI, the Davis Center, engineering school, business school etc, to those who send projects their way, to those who recruit graduates - well let's just that basketball has very little to do with how they know about UD. It isn't why Blackrock, JPMirgan and the like know every student in the Davis Center, why the four largest accounting firms are hosting multiple events a year for UD students, and the same for engineering. It is because those exist, they do well in competitive events.
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Well, I didn't know all the above until you just posted it on a BASKETBALL board. All schools would survive without athletics. SMU would probably THRIVE without athletics.
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10-22-2015, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19
David Jablonski @DavidPJablonski 32m32 minutes ago
Talked to Kendall, Kyle, Scoochie. All expect Dyshawn Pierre back this season but have not asked him directly if he'll return in December.
David Jablonski @DavidPJablonski 32m32 minutes ago Dayton, OH
Kendall said Dyshawn is working out five hours a day back at home.
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Here's to all those posters who immediately were so co*k-sure Dyshawn would bolt.
Get a life.
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10-22-2015, 11:17 PM
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Who would have thought that the "preseason" banter on this message board would be far worse than the "offseason" banter was..... when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Some of you guys need help!
Can't wait for the season to start!
GO FLYERS!
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10-23-2015, 06:04 AM
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Get a life? Are you including yourself in this rhetorical statement?
If our message board members had a life, we wouldn't be wasting our time posting silly comments on a silly game...
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10-23-2015, 07:26 AM
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'but none have talked to him directly'...
So they don't know any more than we do.
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10-23-2015, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
'but none have talked to him directly'...
So they don't know any more than we do.
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Doesn't it strike any of you "co**sure people" who think he will be back as odd that someone who has a land line, a cell phone (with internet service), a Twitter account, an e-mail address, a physical address, and likely carrier pigeon service in his area. . . but no one has asked him?
Heck I don't know 99% of you people and I would at least send you a PM if something serious like this happened. If it was someone who has gone through the trenches for thousands of hours with me, I would surely pick up the phone?
Then again, maybe the players were "forbidden" from contacting him, which human nature says they ignored, so he does know DP is coming back but he's not allowed to publicly admit he's spoken to DP.
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10-23-2015, 08:37 AM
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I haven't read more than 10 of the replies . . . (who has that much time?) . . . and I'm sure it's been asked: Who is paying for the kid's lawyer?
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10-23-2015, 08:39 AM
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Has anyone been keeping up with the Louisville situation? I am not sure how we kick a kid off the team for violating student codes around whether consent is possible when drinking and Louisville has the coach buying the team hookers and no one is off the team (yet). I guess they have a different student handbook.
Somewhat related, I am now worried that Pitino is gone. They would likely put an assistant in for this year, but next year this could be another worry for us to lose Archie.
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10-23-2015, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Dogdaddy
Has anyone been keeping up with the Louisville situation? I am not sure how we kick a kid off the team for violating student codes around whether consent is possible when drinking and Louisville has the coach buying the team hookers and no one is off the team (yet). I guess they have a different student handbook.
Somewhat related, I am now worried that Pitino is gone. They would likely put an assistant in for this year, but next year this could be another worry for us to lose Archie.
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(gulp) This thread just took another detour...Chris, what's the UDP record for # of pages for one thread?
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10-23-2015, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by moville
Who is paying for the kid's lawyer?
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UD Boosters
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10-23-2015, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar
(gulp) This thread just took another detour...Chris, what's the UDP record for # of pages for one thread?
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27
Topic................................pages........ ..replies.......views
Another Domino Falls ....... 27 ........... 2634 ........ 158k
Depleted Big East ............ 20 ........... 1979 ........ 208k
Games of Note (I) ........... 16 ........... 1552 ........ 105k
Recruiting ...................... 16 ........... 1553 ........ 215k
Games of Note (II) .......... 13 ........... 1257 ........ 82k
Pierre Fights Suspension ...10 ........... 963 ...........70k
http://www.udpride.com/forums/forumd...ort=replycount
FWIW, there are over 2700 threads with 0 replies.
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10-23-2015, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by moville
I haven't read more than 10 of the replies . . . (who has that much time?) . . . and I'm sure it's been asked: Who is paying for the kid's lawyer?
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Originally Posted by rollo
UD Boosters
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How is it that a booster can pay $XX,000 for an athlete's legal expenses, but can't buy him a Big Mac at McDonalds?
Also, "when" DP comes back for the second semester, will he still have 1 semester of eligibility left? Not that it would make any sense to use it, but just curious?
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10-23-2015, 10:06 AM
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I have just been advised to be fair, don't use "c**k sure" by itself either use "c**t/c**k sure" or the generic "genital sure"
Thanks you for your cooperation.
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10-23-2015, 10:25 AM
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The DDN article is pretty firm on his return
Originally Posted by rollo
'but none have talked to him directly'...
So they don't know any more than we do.
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"Dayton junior point guard Scoochie Smith TALKS TO PIERRE ALL THE TIME and tries to keep his spirits up. He hasn’t asked Pierre directly about his plans, but Smith had this exchange with a reporter on Thursday."
“Do you have any doubt he’s coming back?” Smith was asked.
“Yeah, I’m sure,” Smith said.
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That's a little more than this board knows me thinks. I suppose Scoochie would sign an affidavit if it would help ease folks minds. Geez.
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10-23-2015, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by moville
I haven't read more than 10 of the replies . . . (who has that much time?) . . . and I'm sure it's been asked: Who is paying for the kid's lawyer?
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Grown men with money.
Originally Posted by Dogdaddy
Somewhat related, I am now worried that Pitino is gone. They would likely put an assistant in for this year, but next year this could be another worry for us to lose Archie.
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Doubt it. Wouldn't worry about AM leaving to go anywhere until Thad Matta hangs them up.
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10-23-2015, 02:25 PM
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Colonel
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Originally Posted by rollo
'but none have talked to him directly'...
So they don't know any more than we do.
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There are few things in life you can count on with certainty. Death, taxes, and that Rollo will loudly take up an anti-player position on any off court allegations involving UD players.
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10-23-2015, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by daytonflyers
There are few things in life you can count on with certainty. Death, taxes, and that Rollo will loudly take up an anti-player position on any off court allegations involving UD players.
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Wrong again...and just to prove it, here's an article about the team voluntarily going to Dayton Children's Hospital every week to meet with and read books to seriously sick children...
.....
....oops. My bad...the article doesn't exist! But when it happens, I'll be the first to pat them on the back!
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10-23-2015, 02:41 PM
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First, don't they do a buddy walk or something? And a Christmas with a bunch of local kids? And a variety of other community service related activities? Yes, they do.
Second, is the suggestion that if they don't read books to sick kids they are bad people? Like, since they don't read to sick kids (they might, we don't know), then they necessarily raped someone. I see the logic there...
These kids are putting forth more effort, focus, and selflessness on a particular endeavor (the basketball team we all love and support) than I could have dreamed of putting forth at 20 years old. Do you think they found themselves here by accident? They were selling drugs, raping women, and robbing convenience stores for 18 years, then poof, suddenly realized they were good basketball players and we put them on scholarship?
I didn't read to sick kids in the hospital when I was 20 years old either, and I like to think I am still managing to contribute to society a decade later. Did you read to sick kids when you were in college? Let me guess: you will say that you did, because no one on here can verify it. If you did, were you a scholarship athlete with 30+ hours a week dedicated to a sport?
Get off your high horse, bud. And if you think the people in the basketball program are such bad people, why are you here? Why don't you just stop supporting the team?
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10-23-2015, 02:45 PM
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I didn't read...I did math with elementary school kids at the East Dayton Boys Club and bribed them with cans of coke...and coached a 6th grade girls 'B' basketball team, whose singular goal was to score 10 points in any game...which we did, once!
And I did it for free and because someone asked me to...not because I had to for PR purposes like the teams of past and present.
But who am I to judge, right?! Oh yeah...I'm King!
Now get back to the fields, serf! It's your societal duty...plus, I gotta eat tonite!
So let it be written...so let it be done.
King R...OUT!
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Last edited by rollo; 10-23-2015 at 02:51 PM..
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10-23-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
I didn't read...I did math with elementary school kids at the East Dayton Boys Club...and coached a 6th grade girls 'B' team.
For free...and not because I had to for PR purposes like the teams of past and present do.
But who am I to judge, right?! Oh yeah...I'm King!
Now get back to the fields, serf! I gotta eat tonite!
So let it be written...so let it be done.
King R...OUT!
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Well, you are so gracious with your time and humble about your experiences. I see that you didn't do it for "PR" (you are not noteworthy, so have no need to "relate" to the "public"), but you did it so you could gloat about it years later on a message board, while explaining how much better you are than a 20 year old you don't know. Thanks for including the detail that the team you coached was the "B" team, so we could be clear that you were selflessly giving your time to folks who were not blessed with near the gifts that you were. What a mensch!
Do you know exactly what Dyshawn Pierre, Kyle Davis, Scoochie Smith, and everyone else on the team does with their time? Do you know that they don't do things like that? But you are right, I bet they don't. I bet they just eat free food and get free stuff from UD, disrupt class (because god knows they aren't here to get an education), bully UD students that look like you looked, have sex with the co-eds, and use drugs and alcohol. Yep, in fact, I'm certain that's all they do.
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10-23-2015, 03:03 PM
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10-23-2015, 03:32 PM
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General
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Well this has taken a bit of a nasty turn.
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10-23-2015, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
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Hey Rollo, did you put all of your impressive volunteer experiences on your resume when you were looking for your first job out of college? Would you consider that PR?
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10-23-2015, 03:37 PM
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no...but did someone fart?
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10-23-2015, 08:11 PM
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2nd Lieutenant
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Time to blow the whistle, jump center and start the season. This is getting snarky.
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10-23-2015, 11:19 PM
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The "ignore" feature is AWSOME!
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10-23-2015, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dogdaddy
Has anyone been keeping up with the Louisville situation? I am not sure how we kick a kid off the team for violating student codes around whether consent is possible when drinking and Louisville has the coach buying the team hookers and no one is off the team (yet). I guess they have a different student handbook.
Somewhat related, I am now worried that Pitino is gone. They would likely put an assistant in for this year, but next year this could be another worry for us to lose Archie.
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Replace Slick Rick with Archie - fresh off his own mini sex scandal, after having the two expelled for theft, and Kavenaugh-- oh yeah I see them signing him up for sure. Maybe Bill Cosby will replace Arch here.
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10-24-2015, 07:06 AM
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Sensationalize much? IMO Archie is in everyone's top three prospective coaching hires. Can you imagine how seamless a transition that would be to replace Pitino with Miller? Yeah, you'd better be scared like the rest of us.
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10-24-2015, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog07
Replace Slick Rick with Archie - fresh off his own mini sex scandal, after having the two expelled for theft, and Kavenaugh-- oh yeah I see them signing him up for sure. Maybe Bill Cosby will replace Arch here.
Posted via Mobile Device
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Imagine if a coach had previous scandals that were so bad he had to VACATE A FINAL 4!! TWICE!!! There's a guy who will never work in this business again. NO SCHOOL wants to win that bad.
And then there's Larry Brown. . . still gainfully employed. . . .
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10-24-2015, 10:32 AM
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Major General
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It's highly doubtful (IMHO) that UofL comes out of this unscathed...meaning without NCAA sanctions being imposed. Depending upon what they might be (including reduced scholarships, lack of post-season tourney participation, etc.) any replacement coach would have to think long and hard before taking the job if Petino is ousted.
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10-24-2015, 10:56 AM
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but this is a big name power 5 school.... would not surprise me to see a little slap on the wrist, or maybe even nothing.... They don't call him slick Rick for nothing.
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10-24-2015, 11:11 AM
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Another aspect...
Originally Posted by Bat'71
It's highly doubtful (IMHO) that UofL comes out of this unscathed...meaning without NCAA sanctions being imposed. Depending upon what they might be (including reduced scholarships, lack of post-season tourney participation, etc.) any replacement coach would have to think long and hard before taking the job if Petino is ousted.
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Originally Posted by TerryK_67
but this is a big name power 5 school.... would not surprise me to see a little slap on the wrist, or maybe even nothing.... They don't call him slick Rick for nothing.
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A few things UL will consider, in no special order:
1. UL BB is a very valuable cash machine.
2. Not knowing about something you should know about is (usually) not an acceptable excuse for a "CEO". Nonetheless, it does matter a great deal in a case like this. If RP can persuade UL leadership that he really didn't know what was going on,...he can apologize profusely, admit he wasn't watching the shop closely enough and vow he will will in the future....and nothing remotely like this will ever occur again under his watch. That's a lot different than acknowledging, or being unable to credibly deny, that he knew what was going on.....in my opinion.
How could UL retain a guy who admitted he was aware of such a situation? They can't. So far, RL has adamantly denied knowledge of the matter...I'm not certain; but he may even be denying that the story is true.
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10-24-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
How could UL retain a guy who admitted he was aware of such a situation? They can't. So far, RL has adamantly denied knowledge of the matter...I'm not certain; but he may even be denying that the story is true.
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Denying knowledge of something like this (on campus...assistant coach...>$10k...) screams 'lack of institutional control'...doesn't it??
Forgetting about UL for the moment, why hasn't the NCAA totally wiped UNC off the map? Rampant and repeated academic fraud has to be addressed before anything is done at Louisville.
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10-24-2015, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Denying knowledge of something like this (on campus...assistant coach...>$10k...) screams 'lack of institutional control'...doesn't it??
Forgetting about UL for the moment, why hasn't the NCAA totally wiped UNC off the map? Rampant and repeated academic fraud has to be addressed before anything is done at Louisville.
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The UNC investigation is very much alive. UNC turned in an additional violation in July, just when it was getting close to the ninth inning.
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/c...e31097100.html
Then there is this, which is wishful thinking by the UNC fans and the worthless newspaper down here, that the NCAA will go easy.
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/loc...e32472684.html
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10-24-2015, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar
(gulp) This thread just took another detour...Chris, what's the UDP record for # of pages for one thread?
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This thread will set a record for the # of posts that have nothing to do with the title.
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10-24-2015, 06:13 PM
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Major
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Originally Posted by rollo
I didn't read...I did math with elementary school kids at the East Dayton Boys Club and bribed them with cans of coke...and coached a 6th grade girls 'B' basketball team, whose singular goal was to score 10 points in any game...which we did, once!
And I did it for free and because someone asked me to...not because I had to for PR purposes like the teams of past and present.
But who am I to judge, right?! Oh yeah...I'm King!
Now get back to the fields, serf! It's your societal duty...plus, I gotta eat tonite!
So let it be written...so let it be done.
King R...OUT!
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I just realized that I read your posts up to the word "king" then I skip to the next....
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10-24-2015, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by UDTradition
I just realized that I read your posts up to the word "king" then I skip to the next....
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I love how feisty and grumpy the UDP-bears are after awakening from their off-season hibernation.
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10-24-2015, 07:49 PM
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David Jablonski @DavidPJablonski 7m7 minutes ago
Nothing new on Dyshawn Pierre today. I asked Archie Miller and AD Neil Sullivan if there was anything to report. They said no.
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