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  #301  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I would think it's standard to let the accused know exactly what he's being accused of down to the specifics. Here's why. Let's pretend he wasn't.
************************************************** *

Can you tell us what you did the night of 4/23?
Yes, I ate, went to the bathroom, and went out.

Can you get more detailed?
Like how?

Were you with any women that night?
Yes.

Can you tell us who?
There were a lot of women I talked to that night.

Where did you talk to them?
at home and when I went out.

Did you have sexual relations with any woman that night?
no.

Did you have sexual relations with any woman early in the morning?
Yes.

Was it consensual?
Yes.

Who was the woman?
Now you're getting personal, why are you asking me these questions?

Because the woman has made an accusation about you?
What kind of accusation?

That you had non-consensual sex with here.
The sex was consensual.

Will you tell us step by step how you got to the point of consensual sex?
She and I went clubbing, we came home and we kissed, hugged and one thing led to another and we had sex.

************************************************** *******

The above shows that a smart person answers no questions without knowing why the question is being asked. You can't get the answers any other way. And even if they got more detailed with their questions on the night it happened or after getting her report a smart person would have their lawyer in there with him and he would make sure every question related to any allegation was exposed before allowing his client to answer it. This is the only way to get his side of the story without taking a year asking questions and responding to questions from the accused prior to his answering anything.
Yes, that's exactly what I would expect to happen. Wouldn't you?!?! Why would that NOT happen? I'm truly confused why you think this is the wrong way for this to take place. A skilled detective will ask the right questions to get the right answers. The keystone cops will not. It doesn't take a year, it takes a lawsuit. That's how the world works.

Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
No based on the written words, the code of conduct does not say that. The code says effective consent requires words and/or actions and that one is to err on the side of caution and presume the other party can not give effective consent.

Athletes in particular are counseled repeatedly to not engage in sexual activity when alcohol is involved because you should presume this situation is going to occur and the other party will claim they were incapacitated.

Pierre chose to ignore all of that.
Well at least they're being realistic. By the way UDDoug, did you know that it's possible to rape your wife? Now, what if the law changed to say that when you and your wife are intoxicated you can't give consent. And then one day she decided to divorce you so she trapped you by having a glass of wine and then coming on to you. I can see all your friends tsk-tsking you: "You chose to ignore all that, Doug."

This is completely, totally, ridiculously unrealistic. And then people run with "he was counseled, he chose to ignore it."

Oh, and by the way, the accuser states in her section of the official report, "The complainant said she did not feel particularly intoxicated while in the bar, on the way back to her apartment, she felt a little more drunk."

Did she say she was incapacitated? No. As a matter of fact, she goes so far as to say (in her own words) that she did not feel particularly intoxicated while in the bar. And later when the night air hit her, did she feel wasted? No, she felt a "little more drunk."
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  #302  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
ry
Guess the difference between this situation and Londons night with a hooker prior to the NIT championship game was that the female did not file a complaint. Ergo no punishment for London.
Plus the fact it is likely she clearly and affirmatively consented.

Last edited by UDDoug; 09-30-2015 at 09:51 AM..
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  #303  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:29 AM
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From what I recall of the CoC, every student broke it at least once, so it was wise to not get on anyone's bad side.
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  #304  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:30 AM
N2663R N2663R is offline
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Plus the fact it likely she clearly and affirmatively consented.
Did he get a receipt?
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  #305  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
"Lowering inhibitions to the extent you make decisions you would not make sober is enough" Enough for what? To be called rape? I strongly disagree.
If we are defining rape I totally agree. But we aren't. We're talking about the modicum of behavior expected by the Code of Conduct with respect to obtaining consent. Those are two totally different things, with different standards. The Code of Conduct isn't about making sure you don't rape someone.
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  #306  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
......By the way UDDoug, did you know that it's possible to rape your wife? Now, what if the law changed to say that when you and your wife are intoxicated you can't give consent. And then one day she decided to divorce you so she trapped you by having a glass of wine and then coming on to you. I can see all your friends tsk-tsking you: "You chose to ignore all that, Doug."

This is completely, totally, ridiculously unrealistic. And then people run with "he was counseled, he chose to ignore it."

Oh, and by the way, the accuser states in her section of the official report, "The complainant said she did not feel particularly intoxicated while in the bar, on the way back to her apartment, she felt a little more drunk."

Did she say she was incapacitated? No. As a matter of fact, she goes so far as to say (in her own words) that she did not feel particularly intoxicated while in the bar. And later when the night air hit her, did she feel wasted? No, she felt a "little more drunk."
Yes, I know you can rape your wife.

I also know that the way these hearing work is if she's drunk they rule a reasonable person will decide she can't consent. We can complain about how the Title IX hearing boards have gone, but that's a different issue than this particular case occurring at the time those hearings operate as they do.

We have no idea what other testimony may have occurred at the hearing. But the way these work, "feeling a little more drunk" is going to result in the body deciding effective consent was not given.

My point is the policy is explained to the basketball team as: assume the person you are with can not consent if they have been drinking. You should assume the policy will be implemented in that manner and enforced in that manner if charges are ever filed.

At BYU the policy for athletes flat out prohibits pre-marital sexual relations, consensual or not.

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  #307  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Did he get a receipt?
If he's Jerry Springer he would not need one, he would have the cancelled check.
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  #308  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:57 AM
N2663R N2663R is offline
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
If he's Jerry Springer he would not need one, he would have the cancelled check.
In the spirit of the posts here over the past week, I'm not sure a cancelled check is good enough. How can you prove what the intent of the check was? Maybe she did his laundry.
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  #309  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Yes, I know you can rape your wife.

I also know that the way these hearing work is if she's drunk they rule a reasonable person will decide she can't consent. We can complain about how the Title IX hearing boards have gone, but that's a different issue than this particular case occurring at the time those hearings operate as they do.

We have no idea what other testimony may have occurred at the hearing. But the way these work, "feeling a little more drunk" is going to result in the body deciding effective consent was not given.

My point is the policy is explained to the basketball team as: assume the person you are with can not consent if they have been drinking. You should assume the policy will be implemented in that manner and enforced in that manner if charges are ever filed.

At BYU the policy for athletes flat out prohibits pre-marital sexual relations, consensual or not.
Me: I have wrecked my car, I am not at all happy.
Insurance company: Here's a check for the depreciated value of the your car, which is 50% of what you expected. Now are you happy?
Me: I am a little more happy.
CoC board decision: Gazoo is fully happy.

There is a difference between the colloquial phrase "a little more drunk" and "drunk". This tells me that by her own admission she was not drunk. She knew exactly the accusation she was leveling here (rape by incapacitation), and even she could not bring herself to simply say "I was drunk." She says that phrase and BOOM, the hammer comes down. Maybe even criminal charges. But she didn't say that, she actually danced carefully around it. Why? Because she knew she wasn't.

And there was time that passed when walking from Tim's to the apartment where any buzz would further wear off. It's entirely possible that by the time she got back she would not have even failed a sobriety test.

And BYU is an entirely special place populated by people with a cult-like following to a code of conduct. It's just not realistic at any other place I can think of including a Catholic university.
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  #310  
Old 09-30-2015, 10:04 AM
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So it's been about a week since the announcement that Ginsberg was representing Pierre. Seems like if something is going to happen to allow him to play before December 22, it had better happen within the next 48 hours or so. Otherwise, there's just no way Pierre could be academically eligible.

David Jablonski reports that Archie will meet with media tomorrow. Let's hope there is some kind of news that comes out so we can have some new information about which to speculate.
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  #311  
Old 09-30-2015, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
So it's been about a week since the announcement that Ginsberg was representing Pierre. Seems like if something is going to happen to allow him to play before December 22, it had better happen within the next 48 hours or so. Otherwise, there's just no way Pierre could be academically eligible.

David Jablonski reports that Archie will meet with media tomorrow. Let's hope there is some kind of news that comes out so we can have some new information about which to speculate.
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You are probably correct, but that "something" has to be agreed to by all parties involved privately, outside of the court system. And if something is worked out, you can be sure that a certain segment of the population will cry "foul" solely because it involves a star athlete. If this has to move into the court system, you can kiss the beginning of the season good bye.
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  #312  
Old 09-30-2015, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
So it's been about a week since the announcement that Ginsberg was representing Pierre. Seems like if something is going to happen to allow him to play before December 22, it had better happen within the next 48 hours or so. Otherwise, there's just no way Pierre could be academically eligible.

David Jablonski reports that Archie will meet with media tomorrow. Let's hope there is some kind of news that comes out so we can have some new information about which to speculate.
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It would be nice but I don't think Archie will say anything meaningful about the DP situation.
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  #313  
Old 09-30-2015, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
You are probably correct, but that "something" has to be agreed to by all parties involved privately, outside of the court system. And if something is worked out, you can be sure that a certain segment of the population will cry "foul" solely because it involves a star athlete. If this has to move into the court system, you can kiss the beginning of the season good bye.
Being a blind optimist, I'm hoping for an emergency court injunction that decrees Pierre should be immediately reinstated as a student. I realize that is rather unlikely, but I think that's really the only way something could happen this week. I just can't see any scenario in which the university would "voluntarily" rescind the punishment. Tick tick tick.

And CE80, you're probably right, but someone at least has to ask about it, right? Even something like, "We expect to have Dyshawn back on December 22, and I cannot comment beyond that." would be newsworthy. Personally, I think Dyshawn will be back then, but I don't know how this is going to affect the season.
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  #314  
Old 09-30-2015, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
I just can't see any scenario in which the university would "voluntarily" rescind the punishment. Tick tick tick.

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I wouldn't necessarily see the punishment rescinded, just an agreement to hold off for a further review. But, if they do agree to hold off so DP can start the season, you run the risk that the findings/punishment are upheld and DP misses time later in the season, or the end of the season. Pick your poison. It's a game of cat and mouse. Can DP and Ginsberg string this along until after the season.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
There is a difference between the colloquial phrase "a little more drunk" and "drunk". This tells me that by her own admission she was not drunk. She knew exactly the accusation she was leveling here (rape by incapacitation), and even she could not bring herself to simply say "I was drunk." She says that phrase and BOOM, the hammer comes down. Maybe even criminal charges. But she didn't say that, she actually danced carefully around it. Why? Because she knew she wasn't.
I'm not arguing what the policy should be, or how it should be interpreted. Just how it is. And today, on the vast majority of college campuses, if one party has had more than a drink and files a complaint, the accused is going to lose. It's what it is.

Under the Dept of Ed rulings and guidance, the schools are left with little to do except capitulate. Xavier found out what happens if you take a different approach.

Based on what I've been able to read, and the evidence that has been presented, it's highly like consent was not obtained at the level expected by these hearing boards as directed by the Dept of Ed. Just the fact she said she was feeling a little more drunk, got up multiple times (each time to return), and almost immediately said what happened wasn't right is more often than going to result in these boards finding that it is more likely than not that you did not obtain effective consent. They are going to rule that her actions indicated doubt, and fueled by alcohol she relented unwillingly. That may be totally wrong, but it's what it is. That's why the athletes are told alcohol = no sex.

Last edited by UDDoug; 09-30-2015 at 11:13 AM..
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  #316  
Old 09-30-2015, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Pierre's lawyers have said UD's policies are based on faulty Federal laws...which implies UD is following the law and that it's the laws that need to change first.

Here's the Feds "Dear Colleague Letter"... https://www.udayton.edu/finadmin/cam...ril%202011.pdf

Not sure how UD gets torn up based on this.
It will depend on it previous punishments fit the crimes...relations under the influence...

I guess some follow up questions that would need to be answered...

Was the accuser in this case served any paperwork? Was she handed down sanctions prior to her departure from campus for her own violation of the CoC? Doubt it...as the sexual misconduct is resting on DP's back, not hers...as she was an accuser. Basically...was DP treated differently?

Here is the main issue....If she never consented under the influence, then DP violated the CoC. If no probable cause existed to show that DP sexually assaulted the accuser, then no sexual misconduct occurred, as the courts found it either consensual or too many inconsistencies. If this is the case, the acts were deemed consensual at the time of the acts per the prosecutor, so UD basically stated that DP violated the code due to forcing himself on the accuser, even though the courts that matter, common pleas, decided there wasn't enough evidence. If he was removed for an alcohol violation, then there should be documentation that prevents the accuser from re-enrolling if she chooses to do so.

IMO, you are clouding the waters of accountability when you as a private entity are handling out sanctions based on being accused of a crime. The kangaroo courts deemed that their standard of conduct is higher, yet their burden of proof is much lower. Student codes of conduct need to be written differently. If you are accused of a crime and it is found to not have occurred, then there needs to be a different application of the CoC. Like I stated before...the burden of proof is essentially non-existent with a potentially flawed application and appeals process...and the standard of conduct is higher...but also up for modified interpretation.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:24 AM
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I just cannot get over my anger at this whole situation. I find it interesting that the administration delayed the hearing for the entire summer, allowing Pierre to continue to be with the team on campus and even to begin classes.

Then, conveniently, the committee meeting and the hearing and then public release occurred, FINALLY, just AFTER the deadline for ticket renewals and payment. Nice.
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  #318  
Old 09-30-2015, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Based on what I've been able to read, and the evidence that has been presented, it's highly like consent was not obtained at the level expected by these hearing boards as directed by the Dept of Ed. Just the fact she said she was feeling a little more drunk, got up multiple times (each time to return), and almost immediately said what happened wasn't right is more often than going to result in these boards finding that it is more likely than not that you did not obtain effective consent. They are going to rule that her actions indicated doubt, and fueled by alcohol she relented unwillingly. That may be totally wrong, but it's what it is. That's why the athletes are told alcohol = no sex.
The only person that can determine the level of consent given, or the ability to give consent, is the person involved. This is precisely the problem...the Dept of Ed isn't capable in any way, shape, or form able to determine if student was able to consent. That is unless someone comes forth and says that the accuser displayed actions of "INCAPACITATION"...which is exactly what their own G **** policy states.

What does the policy state? It states incapacitation. Not intoxication. No drunk. Not buzzed. Not had been drinking. Not one drink. Etc...They...UD....needed to prove that the alleged victim was incapacitated and not able to give consent. Nowhere in any statement or report made public is there a stitch of evidence indicating that. I deal with this on a daily basis. There are elements to crimes and if those elements aren't met, you can't massage it legally to meet your needs. The elements of their own policy aren't even met. The only element met is the statement regarding "erring on the side of caution" statement or whatever it is worded. You can't and shouldn't punish someone for not erring on the side of caution. You should punish if they explicitly, with evidence, violate a written rule or statute. Nothing states anything about having sex after drinking. It a violation occurs when one is taken advantage of due to incapacitation. This is also in line with the Ohio Revised Code. So in other words...unless you can determine that a crime occurred, it should be real difficult to prove a violation of the CoC. This didn't happen.

If a local drunk driving school teaches the law that you can't legally drive at a .08...but they state that I should err on the side of caution and not drive after drinking even 1 beer....the question is...Can law enforcement arrest me for being a .08? Or for not erring on the side of caution? DP was charged in the court of UD for not being "cautious" enough versus meeting the elements of their own policy.
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  #319  
Old 09-30-2015, 11:31 AM
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Whether sexual misconduct has occurred depends in part on whether “effective consent” exists. Effective consent is granted when a person freely, actively, and knowingly agrees at the time to participate in a particular sexual act with a particular person. Effective Consent exists when mutually understandable words and/or actions demonstrate a willingness to participate in mutually-agreed-upon activity at every stage of that sexual activity.
Incapacitation:
A person is incapacitated if he or she is unable to understand what is happening or is disoriented, helpless, asleep or unconscious for any reason, including due to alcohol or other drugs. Indicators and/or evidence of incapacitation include but are not limited to outrageous/unusual behavior, inability or diminished ability to accurately discern his/her environment (who, what, where, when and/or how), slurred speech, vomiting, severe intoxication, black/brown out, loss of voluntary motor skills, loss of involuntary motor skills, disjointed speech patterns (unable to follow a conversation or verbalize complete thoughts, and/or sleepiness that demonstrates an inability to control one’s ability to stay
awake.

The more I read the Code the more it looks like Pierre was treated unfairly. I agree with FSUFlyer:

It seems to me she consented by her actions. She stayed in his apartment, walked around the apartment, could have left at any time, and then climbed into bed with him. She freely, actively, and knowingly agreed to the sex.

There is no evidence she was "incapacitated" under the above definition. She understood what was happening but then regretted it after it happened.

His attorney should have a field day with all the mumbo-jumbo in the Code.


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  #320  
Old 09-30-2015, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GoFlyer View Post
I just cannot get over my anger at this whole situation. I find it interesting that the administration delayed the hearing for the entire summer, allowing Pierre to continue to be with the team on campus and even to begin classes.

Then, conveniently, the committee meeting and the hearing and then public release occurred, FINALLY, just AFTER the deadline for ticket renewals and payment. Nice.
Were the students/faculty meeting over the summer months (May 1-------August 20, 2015)?

Give me a break on the rest of your post! Ticket renewals at 95%+ and your suggesting what your "suggesting"-------come on!

Lots of folks un happy at this point but that's just silly IMHO to suggest that the timing of the hearing, review, etc. and when the news released was all part of a strategy relative to UD Flyer ticket renewals!
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  #321  
Old 09-30-2015, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by GoFlyer View Post
I find it interesting that the administration delayed the hearing for the entire summer, allowing Pierre to continue to be with the team on campus and even to begin classes.

Then, conveniently, the committee meeting and the hearing and then public release occurred, FINALLY, just AFTER the deadline for ticket renewals and payment. Nice.
I believe the incident happened literally during the last week of the spring semester, and by the time the claim was filed it was May and the semester was over. But, I do agree that this should have been handled asap during the summer semester. Maybe this is something Ginsberg will look into.
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  #322  
Old 09-30-2015, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Incapacitation:
A person is incapacitated if he or she is unable to understand what is happening or is disoriented, helpless, asleep or unconscious for any reason, including due to alcohol or other drugs. Indicators and/or evidence of incapacitation include but are not limited to outrageous/unusual behavior, inability or diminished ability to accurately discern his/her environment (who, what, where, when and/or how), slurred speech, vomiting, severe intoxication, black/brown out, loss of voluntary motor skills, loss of involuntary motor skills, disjointed speech patterns (unable to follow a conversation or verbalize complete thoughts, and/or sleepiness that demonstrates an inability to control one’s ability to stay
awake.
And this WOULD HAVE BEEN A CRIME!!!!! So...absent of a crime...there is no violation of the code!!!!
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  #323  
Old 09-30-2015, 12:06 PM
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Talking

Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I believe the incident happened literally during the last week of the spring semester, and by the time the claim was filed it was May and the semester was over. But, I do agree that this should have been handled asap during the summer semester. Maybe this is something Ginsberg will look into.
Wow, surprised they weren't busy studying for finals!
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  #324  
Old 09-30-2015, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
And this WOULD HAVE BEEN A CRIME!!!!! So...absent of a crime...there is no violation of the code!!!!
Believe you can violate the CofC without committing a crime. Also believe DP has admitted to CofC violation but is challenging the penalty. I agree the penalty seems harsh and the delay in the process was a mistake. Really just a lot of conjecture on the boards absent any concrete facts.
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  #325  
Old 09-30-2015, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by College B-Ball Fan View Post
Were the students/faculty meeting over the summer months (May 1-------August 20, 2015)?

Give me a break on the rest of your post! Ticket renewals at 95%+ and your suggesting what your "suggesting"-------come on!

Lots of folks un happy at this point but that's just silly IMHO to suggest that the timing of the hearing, review, etc. and when the news released was all part of a strategy relative to UD Flyer ticket renewals!
Come on, CBBF, you know better than that.




The season ticket renewal rate is more like 98%.

All kidding aside, the Athletic Department had exactly zero to do with this ruling. To suggest the timing had anything at all to do with ticket renewals is ludicrous.
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  #326  
Old 09-30-2015, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Believe you can violate the CofC without committing a crime. Also believe DP has admitted to CofC violation but is challenging the penalty. I agree the penalty seems harsh and the delay in the process was a mistake. Really just a lot of conjecture on the boards absent any concrete facts.
I am not stating that you can't violate a civil CoC without committing a crime...however the quoted policy, that is assumed to be violated, EXPLICITLY explains and defines what the elements of the rule are...and those elements stated incapacitation.

Sure...there are CoC rules that aren't crimes. But in the sexual assault policy, it states what exactly those elements are. Those elements aren't met based on the definitions that UD quotes in their own policy. It just so happens, that the black and white policy that they do have, pretty much mirrors the ORC with more narrative. You can't have consensual sex with someone who can't consent. Consent comes in for form of age, mental capacity, or severe impairment due to alcohol/drugs, etc. UD defines what the speedbump is in giving consent. That is incapacitation. Incapacitation wasn't proven in any police report. As stated before, had incapacitation been proven...DP would be behind bars or have posted bond by now. It wasn't proven.
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  #327  
Old 09-30-2015, 01:04 PM
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It has gotten to the point where every single post seems to be saying the same thing. Lots of rumors, lots of speculation, lots of frustration. Bottom line, Two parties are involved, Pierre is getting dragged through the mud and hung out to dry, a tarnished reputation going forward regardless of what happens from here on out. The other party, left school is nameless for all tense and purposes, and other then losing a boyfriend is suffering no consequences. In my personal opinion it is clear as day this is buyers remorse. I could be wrong, maybe Pierre did this, but the police say he didn't. No charges. But if he did, I hope he never plays another second for UD and is prosecuted. But if he didn't and this girl essentially made this all up to hide a tryst from a boyfriend she should equally be punished. DP and the victim, knew the CoC, they broke it. They have to accept the consequences. But the 10 game suspension/leave is too severe given a crime wasn't committed. I agree with punishment not the severity of it. Fact: The law DID NOT press charges. so no rape occurred, it didn't even get to trial for god sakes. From all reports DP was a model student/athlete, unlike JR,DS and Kavs who were train wrecks the second they stepped on campus. If it comes out all Pierre is guilty of is breaking the CoC, heads at UD need to roll and the accuser and her friends should be smeared and dragged through the mud as was DP. Whats it coming too, you had to get verbal and written permission with 3 witnesses, a breathalyzer and a notarized statement to bump uglies? My god, if that's the case I could be accused of a lot of rapes and be banned from every campus on earth. Whatever happened to a night out drinking followed by a one night stand and taking the old walk of shame? Im 36 and I cant believe how different things are from when I was that age.

Ill hold my outrage. But if this boils down to regret over a one night stand heads MUST roll. Including the accuser. If DP did do this, which I HIGHLY doubt I hoipehe is punished to the fullest extent of the law.
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  #328  
Old 09-30-2015, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I'm not arguing what the policy should be, or how it should be interpreted. Just how it is. And today, on the vast majority of college campuses, if one party has had more than a drink and files a complaint, the accused is going to lose. It's what it is.

Under the Dept of Ed rulings and guidance, the schools are left with little to do except capitulate. Xavier found out what happens if you take a different approach.

Based on what I've been able to read, and the evidence that has been presented, it's highly like consent was not obtained at the level expected by these hearing boards as directed by the Dept of Ed. Just the fact she said she was feeling a little more drunk, got up multiple times (each time to return), and almost immediately said what happened wasn't right is more often than going to result in these boards finding that it is more likely than not that you did not obtain effective consent. They are going to rule that her actions indicated doubt, and fueled by alcohol she relented unwillingly. That may be totally wrong, but it's what it is. That's why the athletes are told alcohol = no sex.
In response, I say "everything shocka43 posted."

You can't say that if 1 party has "more than 1 drink" and files a complaint it's against the CoC. It's not there.

You can't say "it's highly like consent was not obtained at the level expected by these hearing boards" and that the boards just follow the unfair CoC policy, because that's just not what the CoC says.

Or, you CAN say all those things, and then say "DP is being railroaded by a board who pays zero attention to what the policy actually says." In which case I would agree with you.

And if UD isn't following their policy they are going to need a tuition increase to cover the loss from the lawsuit that's coming.
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  #329  
Old 09-30-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
It has gotten to the point where every single post seems to be saying the same thing.
I disagree, some people seem to be confused about what the CoC actually says and keep making false statements about it. Maybe I'm one of them!!
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  #330  
Old 09-30-2015, 01:42 PM
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Regardless of the state of the accused, the University Hearing Board will use the perspective of a “sober and reasonable person” in determining whether one should have known about the impact of the use of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, etc. on another’s ability to give consent. Because incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent.


The police report mentions a bottle of Parrot Bay and Vodka were brought to the apartment, and that more alcohol was consumed at Tim's. There may well have been testimony as to how much alcohol was consumed at the hearing, and it may very well be that a sober person would conclude that anyone consuming that much alcohol, despite their statements was incapacitated. Who knows what else was brought forth that isn't in the police report other than a sentence or two related to other incidents.

And she can consent to absolutely everything up to the final act under the code and not consent to that and the accused will have still crossed the line.

There are two different standards by which criminal cases are judged and these hearings are judged. Criminal cases are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The prosecutor could look at the sum of the evidence and say you know it's likely there's a crime here but I can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt so I'm not prosecuting. The hearing is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt - it's more likely than not. Meaning 50.1% is enough to "convict".

We're never going to agree here, and while I think the punishment seems over the top severe, the hearing board is likely privy to way information than we'll ever know.
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  #331  
Old 09-30-2015, 03:43 PM
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Exclamation Correct this Wrong...Now!

Doug, the hearing board (if you want to call it that) has zero evidence of anything like that. Bull**** undergrad testimony by hear feminist friends...means nothing.

Well, well, well....what do we have here???!!! Amazing is both the percentage of you, and especially some specific posters, that have finally come full circle on this whole "Every College Aged Male is Rapist" Bullwinkle. What a load of motherfarking crap. This situation is so chaotic and out of control, that is mindboggling, pathetic, and completely outrageous. The Administrators at the University of Dayton (an alleged “Catholic University”…go figure that one) should be absolutely positively ashamed of themselves….no doubt about it. I am both sick and sickened. This situation is completely and utterly unacceptable.
Before I forget, TMan, I know what you are saying about the ticket deadlines, etc.; but, I am certain you aimed your post in-correctly at CBBFan, as he is not the one who put forth the conspiracy logic on ticket deadlines, etc. Yet, with that said, I would not be so fast to dismiss the reality that admins knew all along, and yet only after the ticket invoice deadline, as well as the plurality of Orlando Packages were purchased, or at-least trips planned, was there any winds of a five month old false rape allegation against the senior star forward of the men’s basketball program. If said incident had involved a male cross country runner, very real possibility that we all know within days or weeks. But this is only an extra sidebar issue….not the main problem.
The problem is that the University of Dayton is finally on par with Duke University. Oh, no, not on the basketball court, no, but in the drive to a championship. University of Dayton is by far the new champion of all the Man Hating Universities in the nation. The NCAMHU Championship belongs to good ole Man Hater U of D.
Hiding behind a so called Code of Conduct and/or Code of Civility, and punishing the men, arbitrarily only if/and/or/but/and when they want to; and never expecting these young woman to own their actions, or to equally apply said discipline to all cases and scenarios on campus, is and reeks of Disparate Impact.
As a long time ticket holder and alum, I take great exception to UD’s administrative conduct; and most especially in light of the existence and manner in which the CofC is being operated and utilized. It is not being used to address horrific situations, or cheating, or disruptive behavior, etc. It is however, being used to enforce, and thus instill into the younger minds on campus, a very specific set of ideological, political, and sociological agendas, held deeply by the radical academic leftist and most specifically the portion of academia filled with radical man hating feminist. Of which, apparently, UD seems to have no shortage of…obviously. I stand by the fact the Mr. Matt Kavanaugh (take notice Rollo) and Mr. Dyshawn Pierre were both falsely and erroneously accused, with purposeful and negative intent, of Rape by the university of Dayton administration. To suggest that somehow either player was actually suspended due to drinking, partying, being out too late, or of parting their hair incorrectly, is nothing short of a god **** lie. Now, that’s the mother freaking truth! And, for whatever reason, you don’t know that, then you are either are a radical man hater, or you can go see what Mr. Trump would describe you as….like see “only Rosie O’Donnell”. Or maybe your name is Jane Fonda, or Rodham Rodham. In other words you have to be brain dead to think this isn’t the product of radical feminist disposition on campus. Pleaseeeeeeeeeee!
While in the graduate program, I had my own experience with UD’s office of civility (whatever the he…double hockey sticks that is), in which they tried to bring me in for a hearing because, while in governmental oriented masters program, I sent out an email to my direct colleagues and faculty in that program only, concerning a candidate I worked for in Congressional Primary. It was not a solicitation, but rather only a friendly email reminding them of my guy was, and to remember to vote, and please consider him. It was not an official email; it was not generated from the campaign, or anything of the like. It just me communicating directly with my colleagues in an academic program that dealt with things government and politics, etc. In fact, it was the political science department. The civility office actually charged me with a said violation of jamming the university computer system. Keep in mind I never signed any paperwork concerning such etiquette or rules; however, that didn’t stop them from being ready and willing to bring me in for a hearing and likely kick me out of school over it…they said as much. Finally, I was able to get one of the sisters in that office to see that, the actual email amounted to nothing, and then she agreed that it was becoming clear to her, that the complaint against me had been filed by either a political opponent of mine (within the graduate program), or someone within the same program, who just didn’t like me. Yet, the students, much like those that suspend Kavanaugh and Pierre, that initially handled the complaint against me, they were very rigid and convinced that I had what was coming to me, and likely was going to go in front of this committee and be punished for it…even though they had zero idea of what had actually happened.
Folks, I am starting to thing we might one of hell of problem with in house civility process at good ole Man Hater u of d. This stuff has to stop…no questions asked.
Right is right and wrong is wrong folks. The Pierre suspension is grossly wrong; and I would ask the University of Dayton Administration to step-in and correct a very obvious wrong. I know it is hard to eat preverbal crow, but you folks are going to have to either **** or get of the pot.
As an alum, booster, and ticket holder of four tickets and one over priced parking pass. As well as a practicing and devout catholic; and one who has handled professionally numerous public administrative investigations, I would ask, and suggest that Dyshawn Pierre be reinstated to full student capacity and full scholarship athlete member of the University of Dayton Men’s basketball team ASAP. That means on or before Monday Morning 10/5/2015, Pierre should be reinstated and allowed to catch-up on all fall semester school work, and return, in full to the basketball program. End of story!
If Pierre is not reinstated by then, let the letter writing, boycotting, and disparate impact lawsuits begin.
This year I choose the tree month payment plan on season tickets, and it’s not too late to stop the last payment. But, I think a much better scenario is to make the last payment, and then hold the tickets back so that no one can use them. I am sorry to say, and sorry to have to feel this way, but if Pierre is not reinstated, then I will begin protesting and boycotting games. For sure, I will not come out to the red/blue game or the exhibition game if this continues. I will see what happens after that point, but I have already begun to identify games easy enough to boycott. And for those that know me, I don’t miss home games, virtually ever. I have traveled to Austin Texas, Cincinnati, Atlantic City, Charleston, Puerto Rico, Columbus, Oxford, Pittsburgh, and on and on, but no more if Pierre is not reinstated. And, absolutely no more time Warner deck pregame meals for eight fans on my account…absolutely not (to the tune of $150 plus tax every visit). No more wild concession spending; as I my group usually spends $30-$50 per game on concessions, but not now.
I might be forced to go to Orlando, because I already promised my 79yr old mother and 75yr old father, and my wife, that I would take them to Epcot, so it might be hard to get out of that one. And, yes, they all see this the exact same way I do.
UD Administration please do the right thing, and reinstate Dyshawn Pierre. Have coach Miller make him run and extra two miles per day, assign an assistant to follow check up on him three times per day, put him on behavioral probation, or whatever, but for the of Jesus don’t destroy his life, don’t destroy the basketball program, or the season, and certainly embarrass yourselves or the university any more than you all ready have. Please don’t let UD a communist Gestapo kind of place, and don’t let its reputation of being a terrible scary man hating institution grow out of control. Don’t make it so that parents and families of other young men have to be afraid to send their son to school at UD, or afraid to let them come to Dayton and play basketball, in fear they will be falsely and erroneously accused by the administration of being a Rapist. That is not right, and it is not reasonable. There is nothing good about Pierre’s suspension…nothing. It is not too late for this error to be corrected. Get it done!
Finally, I must say, that after reading the report from the UD police; I can tell you that what they provided is not a complete and exhaustive version of the public record. For one thing, the redacted parts of the woman’s actual complaint; and you cannot do that. The police report provided to the public was incorrectly redacted. The only redaction is to apply only to personal identifiers and personal information, not parts of her alleged story. Also, the emails and media files created by the UD detective were to be included and turned over with the public records request.
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  #332  
Old 09-30-2015, 04:49 PM
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Ah yes, one of the politically correct members took a green pip square from me for telling it like it is. Sophomoric as all get out. Just proves my point.
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  #333  
Old 09-30-2015, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
Ah yes, one of the politically correct members took a green pip square from me for telling it like it is. Sophomoric as all get out. Just proves my point.
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  #334  
Old 09-30-2015, 05:02 PM
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I thoroughly enjoyed your post Beatty. Thank you. Hopefully we get this issue resolved soon or at least have more clarity.
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Old 09-30-2015, 05:19 PM
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I agree with BTC on the police report...if anyone chooses to do so...a complaint with the AG's office should take care of the allegations of assault...those aren't protected as Beatty stated.
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  #336  
Old 09-30-2015, 05:33 PM
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Thanks Rollo. I am back in light green square pips again.

Shocka, I say file another request with more specific language to UD Police Department. Making it clear and obvious what you expect and will accept as fully exhaustive public record. Then, if they don't comply, complain to the AG's Office. I might work on it myself, but others should do the same.
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  #337  
Old 09-30-2015, 06:09 PM
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Count me in your corner BTC.
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  #338  
Old 09-30-2015, 06:16 PM
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I am not a season ticket holder, as a live in North Carolina. Are those of you that are, now contacting the university to voice your outrage? Beatty have you sent a similar letter to UD?
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  #339  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:31 PM
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The question is if this was any other person would the school kick them out for a semester?

I assume he is kicked out because he broke the CoC because they don't have any proof that any of this other stuff happened. Does the school kick out every person that breaks the CoC?

I am disgusted by the University and how they handled this situation. What a joke.
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  #340  
Old 10-01-2015, 12:19 AM
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Jack72,

As of now, I have not sent a letter to UD, but while having diner with my wife tonight, I thought this over, and told her I was prepared to submit a more narrowly tailored public records request. If I am denied any part of that request, I plan to pursue it, as if I been denied the request in general. Translation...a failure to provide appropriate publicly requested information, in the state of Ohio, is potentially fineable up-to $1000 per day per record; and every page, and/or any individual statements or media files collected by university police department, could in fact be considered a "record". Or at-least the fifteen plus pages could be considered individual $1,000 (each page) per day. A new Public Record needs to be sought.

As for the letter writing, obviously, even I would be somewhat more tactful in a direct letter. But the essence, and the bottom lines of said letter would be the same. If I didn't believe and feel what I posted on this board, then I wouldn't post it (at-least as it relates to a serious situation like this). I might play devils advocate on some funny basketball philosophy kinds of things, but not about this.

With that said, don't you think the posting on this board, at some level, is, in a real sense, very akin to writing a direct letter? Certainly the administration knows about Beatty Town Coach...be realistic. They know and read this board, we all know that.

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  #341  
Old 10-01-2015, 08:07 AM
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great posts everyone. I have sent an email last week to two Student Personnell or Vice Presidents listed in a previous email - voicing my displeasure with how things were handled, with discrepancies in the reporting and redactions, and that the punishment seemed quite , quite steep in relation to the incident.

Buggers!
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  #342  
Old 10-01-2015, 08:44 AM
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If something positive was happening in regards to DP, shouldn't we have heard by now?
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  #343  
Old 10-01-2015, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Regardless of the state of the accused, the University Hearing Board will use the perspective of a “sober and reasonable person” in determining whether one should have known about the impact of the use of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, etc. on another’s ability to give consent. Because incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent.


The police report mentions a bottle of Parrot Bay and Vodka were brought to the apartment, and that more alcohol was consumed at Tim's. There may well have been testimony as to how much alcohol was consumed at the hearing, and it may very well be that a sober person would conclude that anyone consuming that much alcohol, despite their statements was incapacitated. Who knows what else was brought forth that isn't in the police report other than a sentence or two related to other incidents.
I don't disagree that it's possible that more was in the hearing than we know.

Which is why I find it interesting that you automatically assume that, contrary to the facts presenting in writing in the police report, that the testimony must have indicated more drunk instead of less drunk. You must also concede that it's possible that she said in verbal testimony that she was nearly stone sober and that alcohol did not play a factor.

And again, we can't just keep repeating stuff in the CoC that's just not there. Just because the CoC says students are cautioned to err on the side of caution, it does not say that if they don't there's a presumption of guilt. It's just not there.

There's a difference between advice and policy.
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  #344  
Old 10-01-2015, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by swish61 View Post
If something positive was happening in regards to DP, shouldn't we have heard by now?
Not necessarily as this could well be a "behind the doors" scene at present to try and avoid any legal tangle.

Not sure how they would get the accuser to attend this meeting if she is not enrolled nor in town, but could be to her and everyone's best interest that she would voluntarily. All speculation on my part as I believe Ginsburg would try to solve this as quickly and amicably for everyone as soon as possible. Just knowing who is representing DP should have everyone's attention including the accuser.
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  #345  
Old 10-01-2015, 10:36 AM
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My personal opinion is UD will not back down. Big ego's do not back down unless totally cornered. If they do, it will take time, one, to convince them, and two, to cross all the "t's" in the legal and publicity game.
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  #346  
Old 10-01-2015, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Not necessarily as this could well be a "behind the doors" scene at present to try and avoid any legal tangle.

Not sure how they would get the accuser to attend this meeting if she is not enrolled nor in town, but could be to her and everyone's best interest that she would voluntarily. All speculation on my part as I believe Ginsburg would try to solve this as quickly and amicably for everyone as soon as possible. Just knowing who is representing DP should have everyone's attention including the accuser.
Makes total sense. I'm assuming that the complainant got an attorney, obviously DP has an attorney, and UD probably is being assisted by outside counsel. This basically started last Thursday? when DP hired Ginsberg. Three sets of attorneys had to trade documents, and get up to speed on all of the information available. I'm also assuming that the conversations so far have been by conference call to expedite matters. The ball is in DP/Ginsberg's court. They have to say what they want and then the other 2 sets of attorneys/clients then have to discuss and react. I know this is obvious information, but my point is, that it takes time and since Ginsberg is involved, everyone is probably double/triple checking everything.
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  #347  
Old 10-01-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Makes total sense. I'm assuming that the complainant got an attorney, obviously DP has an attorney, and UD probably is being assisted by outside counsel. This basically started last Thursday? when DP hired Ginsberg. Three sets of attorneys had to trade documents, and get up to speed on all of the information available. I'm also assuming that the conversations so far have been by conference call to expedite matters. The ball is in DP/Ginsberg's court. They have to say what they want and then the other 2 sets of attorneys/clients then have to discuss and react. I know this is obvious information, but my point is, that it takes time and since Ginsberg is involved, everyone is probably double/triple checking everything.
I don't see how the complainant is still involved. It is not a law matter any longer. She is no longer student. I think DP is contesting whether the punishment fits the crime and/or the fairness of the UD judicial process.
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  #348  
Old 10-01-2015, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
I don't see how the complainant is still involved. It is not a law matter any longer. She is no longer student. I think DP is contesting whether the punishment fits the crime and/or the fairness of the UD judicial process.
I think you are right, but I would also say that Ginsberg probably is going to pursue every avenue however small, up to and including discussing the possibility of the complainant retracting the complaint so as to avoid being involved and exposed in what could be a lengthy legal battle. She may decide it's not worth the hassle, and UD then has an out to reinstate DP. I agree that it is a very small possibility, but that's why you hire a guy like Ginsberg in the first place.
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  #349  
Old 10-01-2015, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
I don't see how the complainant is still involved. It is not a law matter any longer. She is no longer student. I think DP is contesting whether the punishment fits the crime and/or the fairness of the UD judicial process.
You sure she is not a student
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  #350  
Old 10-01-2015, 11:35 AM
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2 ways to get an appeal...

(a) new evidence or information that did not exist at the time of the hearing or investigation that could have a bearing on the decision is discovered, or

(b) There was a clear error in the process


Pierre's lawyer isn't suggesting (a) is a possibility but has said that (b) is the case....here's his quote "the University of Dayton subjected Dyshawn to fundamentally defective and unfair University disciplinary procedures orchestrated to appease a broken Department of Education policy."


But like I said yesterday, UD's policy is based on Federal Laws...so fighting from this angle would be an uphill battle...and a long one.

It's time to move on and prepare as if Pierre won't be back. Which sucks, simply because he absolutely 100% knew better.



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  #351  
Old 10-01-2015, 11:53 AM
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinio...lumn/73019678/

new article in USA Today
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  #352  
Old 10-01-2015, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Makes total sense. I'm assuming that the complainant got an attorney, obviously DP has an attorney, and UD probably is being assisted by outside counsel. This basically started last Thursday? when DP hired Ginsberg. Three sets of attorneys had to trade documents, and get up to speed on all of the information available. I'm also assuming that the conversations so far have been by conference call to expedite matters. The ball is in DP/Ginsberg's court. They have to say what they want and then the other 2 sets of attorneys/clients then have to discuss and react. I know this is obvious information, but my point is, that it takes time and since Ginsberg is involved, everyone is probably double/triple checking everything.
Let's not assume that DP/Ginsberg are trying to get DP reinstated in school and the team sooner than 12/22 if even that. They might know that's not possible and are just starting the clock on damages. An attorney like Ginsberg will make more money from damages than he will by getting his client reinstated. And the damages can be huge when converted to a dollar amount. Cutting off or delaying an athlete's senior season could cost a lot of money.
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:09 PM
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Based upon the USA Today article it might make a lot of sense for some of the Alumni in Ohio to contact Senator Portman and their Representative in House and let them know how they feel about the current state of affairs with the Federal Department of Education' s arbitrary regulations.
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  #354  
Old 10-01-2015, 01:16 PM
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Thumbs down A lot of money--potentially.

Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Let's not assume that DP/Ginsberg are trying to get DP reinstated in school and the team sooner than 12/22 if even that. They might know that's not possible and are just starting the clock on damages. An attorney like Ginsberg will make more money from damages than he will by getting his client reinstated. And the damages can be huge when converted to a dollar amount. Cutting off or delaying an athlete's senior season could cost a lot of money.
Especially if it is an affront to his character and hinders his ability to pursue an NBA career. Possibly affecting his draft status costing him guaranteed millions by pushing him into the second round (talking like a civil suit attorney and ignoring the true odds of such).

The U accomplishes what they intended to accomplish if they simply string out the legal process and lose, do they not? If they acquiesce after 3 months, then what happens? Do we get to play the missed 10 games over with Dyshawn aboard? Think not. Do they erase the scorn he endures? Do they even apologize? ha.
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Let's not assume that DP/Ginsberg are trying to get DP reinstated in school and the team sooner than 12/22 if even that. They might know that's not possible and are just starting the clock on damages. An attorney like Ginsberg will make more money from damages than he will by getting his client reinstated. And the damages can be huge when converted to a dollar amount. Cutting off or delaying an athlete's senior season could cost a lot of money.
Quantify the damages you see Ginsburg proposing. As I see it, if Pierre played the entire season, he's an NBA undrafted free-agent. If he misses 10 games against weak opponents, he's still an undrafted NBA free-agent. And keep in mind that the NBA doesn't shy away from drafting and paying millions to thugs, drunks, dope-smokers and the like.

And then explain exactly what UD did that would force them to have to pay these damages because Ginsberg has already said the Dept of Ed's policies are flawed, not necessarily UD's.
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:22 PM
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Thought I read Archie was holding a Presser or a statement today. Apparently that hasn't happened, as i haven't seen or read anything . Is it later today or when?
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Quantify the damages you see Ginsburg proposing. As I see it, if Pierre played the entire season, he's an NBA undrafted free-agent. If he misses 10 games against weak opponents, he's still an undrafted NBA free-agent. And keep in mind that the NBA doesn't shy away from drafting and paying millions to thugs, drunks, dope-smokers and the like.

And then explain exactly what UD did that would force them to have to pay these damages because Ginsberg has already said the Dept of Ed's policies are flawed, not necessarily UD's.
Wow Rollo did you ever roll over so quickly. In the beginning you appeared to be open minded, now you only see it from her and the U's point of view.

And it was UD that enforced those policies, did they not. They chose the route they did and have to answer for it, apparently accepting a mere letter as some sort of law.
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  #358  
Old 10-01-2015, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Quantify the damages you see Ginsburg proposing. As I see it, if Pierre played the entire season, he's an NBA undrafted free-agent. If he misses 10 games against weak opponents, he's still an undrafted NBA free-agent. And keep in mind that the NBA doesn't shy away from drafting and paying millions to thugs, drunks, dope-smokers and the like.

And then explain exactly what UD did that would force them to have to pay these damages because Ginsberg has already said the Dept of Ed's policies are flawed, not necessarily UD's.
What are you basing the "undrafted free-agent" on? His Freshman, Sophomore and Junior years? That's why there would be damage on his missing a large part of his senior season. There's a big question mark that cannot be answered but can be argued based on his improvement over time and his projections for his senior season. He was projected to be a top choice for conference player of the year his senior season. That didn't happen in any of his previous seasons so you can't base his damages on those.

The quality of UD basketball has been growing since AM took over and it's only a matter of time before we get players drafted again. It's not a stretch to think that Pierre might have been the first based on just his versatility and great play over his first 3 seasons.
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
What are you basing the "undrafted free-agent" on? His Freshman, Sophomore and Junior years? That's why there would be damage on his missing a large part of his senior season. There's a big question mark that cannot be answered but can be argued based on his improvement over time and his projections for his senior season. He was projected to be a top choice for conference player of the year his senior season. That didn't happen in any of his previous seasons so you can't base his damages on those.

The quality of UD basketball has been growing since AM took over and it's only a matter of time before we get players drafted again. It's not a stretch to think that Pierre might have been the first based on just his versatility and great play over his first 3 seasons.
Absolutely agre, ol King Rollo and become a wuss, been sitting on his throne too long and the blood isn't getting to his head, the correct one that is.
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Wow Rollo did you ever roll over so quickly. In the beginning you appeared to be open minded, now you only see it from her and the U's point of view.
I've never said I see things from her point of view, and I still think Pierre is getting screwed but I also believe he knew and was trained repeatedly to know better...as was she, as I have also stated.

I just disagree that Pierre is NBA material and that this issue will cost him a dime. Like most 4th year seniors, the NBA will overlook him for some 19 year old Ukrainian with a greater upside....and for that reason I don't see how this 'suspension' will cost him a dime...especially since every NBA roster is loaded with players with a lot more baggage than Pierre will ever have.

I'm not a jock sniffer and am only trying to look at this as a reasonable and fair King should. To look at this with anger or revenge simply because Pierre plays basketball is short-sighted and petty. I'm also not a Title IX expert, but I'll be my Royal treasury that the people UD has in place to administer the Title IX program know a h*ll of a lot more about it than the armchair, jock-sniffing QB's whose self-esteem is 99.9999% attached to UD's success on the basketball court spouting off around here.
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  #361  
Old 10-01-2015, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I don't disagree that it's possible that more was in the hearing than we know.

Which is why I find it interesting that you automatically assume that, contrary to the facts presenting in writing in the police report, that the testimony must have indicated more drunk instead of less drunk. You must also concede that it's possible that she said in verbal testimony that she was nearly stone sober and that alcohol did not play a factor.

And again, we can't just keep repeating stuff in the CoC that's just not there. Just because the CoC says students are cautioned to err on the side of caution, it does not say that if they don't there's a presumption of guilt. It's just not there.

There's a difference between advice and policy.
She said in the police report, or somewhere someone posted on here that she had said, she felt more drunk on the way home than in the bar. I'm just repeating that.

I'm also not saying there is a presumption of guilt. Rather I'm saying that they guidelines set out for the committee say they will consider what a sober and reasonable person would conclude, not what either of the parties state. There's a level of consumption at which it is likely that a sober and reasonable person would conclude alcohol contributed to incapacitation even if someone says they are not. I've been involved in enough sobriety demonstrations in which I would claim sobriety but am well past legally intoxicated, so such statements may not influence the committee.

Advice in a policy may as well be policy. They are telling the students how the policy is going to be enforced, so beware.

As to the rest of this, all I am doing is saying how the policy is interpreted, and enforced in the hearings, and how it's explained and taught to the athletes. Nothing more. No opinion on whether the policy is right, should exist, or should be enforced the way it is. Just that given the fact there was a complaint, and the facts as contained in the police report, I am not the least bit surprised that the hearing committee ruled the code of conduct was violated.

What occurred is unequivocally not what the athletic department tells the athletes to do as they know how these things turn out.

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  #362  
Old 10-01-2015, 01:52 PM
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Im just gonna throw this wild, crazy, hair-brained, left-field idea out on the table:

Maybe we don't know everything.

We're attempting to try a case by simply sitting outside the courtroom and reading the stenographer's transcripts. We never interviewed any of the parties ourselves both on and off the record, heard the testimony with our own ears, or were able to observe and size up the body language of the witnesses, let alone the accuser or the accused.

Reminds me of the scene in My Cousin Vinny where Vinny said, "I shot the clerk."

Typed-up words and transcripts are hunky dory, but that's just a small sample size of the overall breadth of detail and digestion that takes place in the course of a search for the truth.

It takes more to get to the bottom of these complex problems than whipping out our High-Speed Internet-based Hewlett-Packard 5710-A dual-column gas chromatograph with flame analyzation detectors and making sense of something we've never been in the room to make sense of.

It doesn't preclude us asking questions and talking about things in a calm elevated manner or questioning the bylaws that may or may not error on the side of caution or loose behavior. But it amazes me how many honorary F. Lee Baileys and Thomas Magnums there exists on the Internet that can apparently fact-find, collate, inspect, interrogate, and reach consensus on from 30,000 feet that those parties sitting in the room are entirely deaf, dumb, and blind to. The Internet: the only place where everyone is an expert on everything. All you have to do is spend 10 minutes on Yelp to find a dozen of the most talented unemployed chefs in the world sitting at home typing up reviews about their Applebees loader tater skins.

I think fans sometimes forget themselves and pretend all there is to know is what they know and nothing more. Just a general comment aimed at the discussion itself and no one in particular. If we could all do everyone else's job, the world would be perfect.

You can do little about the process, so no sense getting worked up over it. Go outside and walk the dog. Carve a pumpkin. Fix the screen door you put off all summer. Its a great day to be alive.
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  #363  
Old 10-01-2015, 02:06 PM
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I already kicked the dog. Took me a while to get really angry about this issue and that won't change my mind.
So there. (And just thinking, I don't own a dog. Hope the neighbor doesn't get upset).
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  #364  
Old 10-01-2015, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I've never said I see things from her point of view, and I still think Pierre is getting screwed but I also believe he knew and was trained repeatedly to know better...as was she, as I have also stated.

I just disagree that Pierre is NBA material and that this issue will cost him a dime. Like most 4th year seniors, the NBA will overlook him for some 19 year old Ukrainian with a greater upside....and for that reason I don't see how this 'suspension' will cost him a dime...especially since every NBA roster is loaded with players with a lot more baggage than Pierre will ever have.

I'm not a jock sniffer and am only trying to look at this as a reasonable and fair King should. To look at this with anger or revenge simply because Pierre plays basketball is short-sighted and petty. I'm also not a Title IX expert, but I'll be my Royal treasury that the people UD has in place to administer the Title IX program know a h*ll of a lot more about it than the armchair, jock-sniffing QB's whose self-esteem is 99.9999% attached to UD's success on the basketball court spouting off around here.
Okay, so you are suggesting that their are no damages. That's why a top lawyer in these kind of cases is jumping at the bit to represent him. Not because there's money to be had, oh no, not a civil attorney, they just want to see a young man get back in school and finish his education. Yeah, right.

But let's forget about basketball for a second, what about delaying his graduation? Are you saying there's not a cost to DP associated with this?
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  #365  
Old 10-01-2015, 02:13 PM
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http://www.draftexpress.com/rankings/NCAA-Seniors/3/

DP 90th best senior for 2016 per draftexpress...will need to become a more dominant player to be a first rounder...I think he has a chance at the 2nd round.

Hopefully one or both parties will provide more details someday...otherwise, will just have to trust that UD made the right call.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:13 PM
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There are no boring topics, only boring content creators

As an experiment, let’s pick a boring topic and see what we can come up with.

How about coffee cups? Boring enough for you? Take a few moments and dig for the right questions that may reveal some interesting article topics …
•Who invented the first coffee cup and how did they get their inspiration?
•What makes people think they need to drink coffee from a coffee cup and water from a glass?
•When do coffee cup sales rise and what does that tell us about the American public?
•Where are coffee cups made, and why not somewhere else?
•Why are we drawn to novelty coffee cups with phrases like “World’s Greatest Dad” on them?
•How does a coffee cup get all the way from China to the US and still sell for a profit?

See what I did there?

I didn’t put a great deal of thought into these, I just asked the traditional “who,” “what,” “when,” “where,” “why,” and “how” questions, and spent a little bit of time pondering what would make them interesting to me.

Apply the “who,” “what,” “when,” “where,” “why,” and “how” series of questions to your own niche topic, and see what you can come up with.
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  #367  
Old 10-01-2015, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post

But let's forget about basketball for a second, what about delaying his graduation? Are you saying there's not a cost to DP associated with this?
I'm under the assumption that UD didn't suspend Pierre and that he withdrew on his own accord, so riddle me this:


Who delayed Pierre's graduation?

The person who withdrew from school...or the University who allowed him to withdraw?
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Wow Rollo did you ever roll over so quickly. In the beginning you appeared to be open minded, now you only see it from her and the U's point of view.

And it was UD that enforced those policies, did they not. They chose the route they did and have to answer for it, apparently accepting a mere letter as some sort of law.
WOW, calling Rollo closed minded while assuming everyone else is open minded is an interesting spin on things. Kind of like if you don't agree with me, you are closed minded. Not always a fan of Rollo but in this case he presents a plausible theory.
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  #369  
Old 10-01-2015, 02:19 PM
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Lightbulb The Rollo Double Standard

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Absolutely agre, ol King Rollo and become a wuss, been sitting on his throne too long and the blood isn't getting to his head, the correct one that is.
Hence, the very reason queen rollo should be sympathetic to Dyshawn Pierre...because of which head his rollo's alleged royal blood is actually going to.

You kind of have to forgive sir rollo beause his job is linked to the man hating administration; and, because his royal high hiney sits everyday next to many of sisters, not of the Catholic persuasion, but rather that of the Gloria Steinem sisterhood, who simply love causing the nuns on the buss style chaos wherever they may be in life.

I feel for you rollo. But like I said in an above post, I think many of you come full circle finally on why this epidemic is such a problem. Unlike your push back against me regarding the kavanaugh situation, I am not seeing the "I've Got a Daughter.....blah blah" Oka, I understand that perspective; but it is a narrow view based on emotion only. I have three older sisters and my lovely wife, ten beautiful nieces, and I would never want anyone to violently attack them. But if they come and tell me their husband or live in boyfriend raped them; or even if it they were out partying and climbing into bed some guy, that he is rapist, I will tell them sorry, I love you, but you need own up and be reasonable. One of nieces, and she is one of my Goddaughters, was on scholarship at SMU where she ran on the track and cross country teams. She was very close friends and teammates with Monika Korra, the well documented SMU Cross Country Rape Victim. Now that was a heinous brutal Rape and Attack. And whatever appropriated punishment comes to men who commit that kind and level of crime is appropriate, understandable, and necessary. But in no way, are they akin to the cases filling the overblown statistics of the Campus Rape Epidemic" However, they are, from their outset being pursued in the same aggressive way. With just a little more push by all the parties involved, very possible Pierre is indicted and heading to prison. For a crime and rape that all never happened. If that doesn't scare the hell out of you, it should.

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  #370  
Old 10-01-2015, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
http://www.draftexpress.com/rankings/NCAA-Seniors/3/

DP 90th best senior for 2016 per draftexpress...will need to become a more dominant player to be a first rounder...I think he has a chance at the 2nd round.

Hopefully one or both parties will provide more details someday...otherwise, will just have to trust that UD made the right call.
90th best senior puts you way off the draft boards. You will have the 89 seniors, 30 or more international players and a similar number or more underclassmen in front of you. Meaning you are about #150 on the board vying for 64 or so slots. Hence undrafted free agent.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
http://www.draftexpress.com/rankings/NCAA-Seniors/3/

DP 90th best senior for 2016 per draftexpress...
Add a bunch of underclassmen and foreigners and Pierre's only chance of getting drafted is a function of the League expanding the Draft to 10 rounds.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I'm under the assumption that UD didn't suspend Pierre and that he withdrew on his own accord, so riddle me this:
But if you're of the ilk who believe that UD suspended Pierre, I can't think of a better way to find out how much power there is behind the Federal Government and Title IX than to stand up, over-rule the initial decision of the Hearing Board and reinstate him based on the anger of your season ticket holders.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I'm under the assumption that UD didn't suspend Pierre and that he withdrew on his own accord, so riddle me this:


Who delayed Pierre's graduation?

The person who withdrew from school...or the University who allowed him to withdraw?
Are you saying that Pierre wasn't suspended from school? Does that mean he was only suspended from playing basketball? Or are you saying he could've attended all this time and played?

So all this discipline the feds are worried about is to keep a person from playing basketball but not worried about them running around campus? This is not making sense.
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  #374  
Old 10-01-2015, 02:56 PM
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I don't like coffee, wish I never saw it or smelled it.

ChrisR, your insinuation that a police report is not, somehow, to contain and/or be taken as factual, is incredible assertion on your part. The testimony or statements may not be truthful, but the statement given is the statement given. And, yes, I think UD Police Department may very well be covering something up with their inadequate fulfilling of public records request. It is imperative that we know what that is; and yes, something can be done about it. So my sliding screen door will just have to wait (and how did you know I have a broken patio door? (Oh yeah, but did you know it is only the handle that is broken...Mr. fact finder?).

You are oversimplifying this situation, as if it is a haha. I am not laughing. To say casually that there is so much more to know, that we stupid unprofessional people just don't know and cannot imagine what that is, and somehow aren't smart enough to recognize a pattern of twenty-five years of fake campus rape cases...is only naïve on your part...very naïve. You are wrong, as lots more can be done, lots more. That is why, it is imperative that we obtain an accurate and fully exhaustive public record police report. Perhaps this other information would in fact support the complainants story (not that I think this was really her story, because it is painfully obvious that the version of this presented was more of that of her female friends, the next day mind you type of personal twist, as well as more like the story of the Title IX office, or the woman's sports coach, or the students serving on the CofC, et al). Or, maybe the other information will support Pierre; but without that information being properly handed over, the administration can not just simply be blindly trusted. We have to know whether or not they have stack the deck and/or dropped the ball on this. There is no two ways about it. Without flushing this out, UD will is going start being the target of, and showing up in, academic and political articles concerning the erroneous campus rape epidemic.

You are wrong in your assessment that somehow, if we are not a UD amdmin, that we just don't know enough...complete wrong, and not true.
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Old 10-01-2015, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I'm under the assumption that UD didn't suspend Pierre and that he withdrew on his own accord, so riddle me this:

Who delayed Pierre's graduation?

The person who withdrew from school...or the University who allowed him to withdraw?
IF DP withdrew on his own accord, it was because his other option(s) were . . . . ? DP did not withdraw solely on his own accord.

ALSO, for future reference, are you allowed to have an attorney present when you appear in front of the "Hearing Board"? You would think if that was possible, the Athletic Dept. would have been all over that opportunity. I can't believe they were that naïve to think that DP would waltz right through something like this. Way too much at stake.

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Old 10-01-2015, 03:42 PM
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No

Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
are you allowed to have an attorney present when you appear in front of the "Hearing Board"?
"You are allowed to have someone sit with you during your UHB hearing. They can provide you guidance and advice through notes or can just be a loving supportive presence for you. You are limited to only one support person in a hearing. This person cannot be a lawyer or attorney. Support people are not permitted to speak or engage in the hearing but having someone who knows you and is invested in your success is often helpful to students. "

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Old 10-01-2015, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
IF DP withdrew on his own accord, it was because his other option(s) were . . . . ? DP did not withdraw solely on his own accord.
.
If Pierre withdrew from school, it may have been the wrong decision as item #10 of the CoC says that a UHB suspension is appealable. If he withdrew, nothing in the Policy allows for it to be reviewed.

Just sayin'...
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
90th best senior puts you way off the draft boards. You will have the 89 seniors, 30 or more international players and a similar number or more underclassmen in front of you. Meaning you are about #150 on the board vying for 64 or so slots. Hence undrafted free agent.
I think you are taking that comment too literally. A good attorney can, and will, drum up more "lost wages" arguments for more money than this board could even think of. He can make a case that draft.com is off the target for various reasons. It's a negotiation and, as such, all parties will find reason to drive home their points.

He's simply using his skills to effect leverage any way he can. Of course you can attach probabilities to each point, but he will try his best to inflict pressure. Otherwise, why would they even need him.
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  #379  
Old 10-01-2015, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
I don't like coffee, wish I never saw it or smelled it.

ChrisR, your insinuation that a police report is not, somehow, to contain and/or be taken as factual, is incredible assertion on your part.
Insinuated no such thing.

The testimony or statements may not be truthful, but the statement given is the statement given.
I never even suggested it wasn't truthful.

And, yes, I think UD Police Department may very well be covering something up with their inadequate fulfilling of public records request. It is imperative that we know what that is; and yes, something can be done about it. So my sliding screen door will just have to wait (and how did you know I have a broken patio door? (Oh yeah, but did you know it is only the handle that is broken...Mr. fact finder?).
If. Dog. Rabbit.

You are oversimplifying this situation, as if it is a haha.
If anything, I was complicating it.

I am not laughing.
None of us are.

To say casually that there is so much more to know, that we stupid unprofessional people
Now the leap to stupid. Unprofessional? I would certainly qualify myself as unprofessional. I have no legal background. No background in assaults. No experience in crimes of violence or sex crimes. No forensic experience. No interrogation experience. Little to no training in psychopathy or psychology. No clear understanding or practice in drawing up or implementing codes of conduct, nevermind enforcing them. Never coached or mentored. In other words, I know where my limits are. I would no more feel comfortable talking in certainties about a topic like this than walking into a Cal Tech lecture on astrophysics and arguing with everyone about why and how the universe is expanding.

just don't know and cannot imagine what that is, and somehow aren't smart enough to recognize a pattern of twenty-five years of fake campus rape cases...is only naïve on your part...very naïve. You are wrong, as lots more can be done, lots more.
I have been accused of not being smart many times. Not the first, won't be the last.

That is why, it is imperative that we obtain an accurate and fully exhaustive public record police report.
Who is this "we" stuff. You got a mouse in your pocket? The ones that deserve any answers are the ones directly involved. The rest of us are bystanders. The world didn't deserve an OJ verdict. The Juice and Nicole Brown did.

You are wrong in your assessment that somehow, if we are not a UD amdmin, that we just don't know enough...complete wrong, and not true.
I agree. Yet the opposite also holds true. That if you are not a UD Admin, it doesn't mean that you still know enough. Neither includes or precludes. Its a wash. Therefore we're back to where we started which was exactly my point.

I've taken no side other than the side of bone-headed stupidity by all parties involved. Beyond that, having no opinion at the moment does not mean I'm siding with the accuser. That's where you're going off the rails. The larger issue with hot button topics like this is its quite unsavory to take anything but a "yes" or "no" side to it. Its human nature to pick a team and show your absolute certainty. It's not popular to say, "I just dont know."

A detailed blow-by-blow telegram describing the Western Front is not the same as being on the Western Front. That's why I'm uncomfortable making any finite determinations. For me, I recognize a difference and the difference is not in where the truth lies. Its not being part of the process that gives me hesitation.
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  #380  
Old 10-01-2015, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
I think you are taking that comment too literally. A good attorney can, and will, drum up more "lost wages" arguments for more money than this board could even think of. He can make a case that draft.com is off the target for various reasons. It's a negotiation and, as such, all parties will find reason to drive home their points.

He's simply using his skills to effect leverage any way he can. Of course you can attach probabilities to each point, but he will try his best to inflict pressure. Otherwise, why would they even need him.
I'm not making any assertion as to whether or not damages will be available. The only comment is that being the 90th ranked senior likely means undrafted free agent.

Someone else may have called into question whether that means no monetary damages.
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I'm not making any assertion as to whether or not damages will be available. The only comment is that being the 90th ranked senior likely means undrafted free agent.

Someone else may have called into question whether that means no monetary damages.
90th ranked senior prior to the season starting. We all know of cases where someone took off their senior year and moved up the ranks. The only ranking that would count is just before draft time. where will he be then, or could be if this had not occurred. Good attorneys can draft up some very probable and believable scenarios. Likewise a very gifted and highly ranked senior could lose considerable ground during his senior year. That is why they play the game. Who woulda thunk the mens and womens teams would have journeyed to the elite eight.
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Who is this "we" stuff. You got a mouse in your pocket? The ones that deserve any answers are the ones directly involved. The rest of us are bystanders. The world didn't deserve an OJ verdict. The Juice and Nicole Brown did.
The verdict is a product of the process. The entire US justice system deserved an explanation of the process that would leave OJ a free man.

We, as UD alum and concerned citizens who's children might one day attend college and be in a similar situation, deserve open records to fight this federal overreach and injustice of the process.

Or we can all just stand by and let Mansanto poison us, the Koch brother to rig the next election, etc. This is how laws like open records happen: because citizens get pi**ed off and demand answers.
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
90th ranked senior prior to the season starting. We all know of cases where someone took off their senior year and moved up the ranks. The only ranking that would count is just before draft time. where will he be then, or could be if this had not occurred. Good attorneys can draft up some very probable and believable scenarios. Likewise a very gifted and highly ranked senior could lose considerable ground during his senior year. That is why they play the game. Who woulda thunk the mens and womens teams would have journeyed to the elite eight.
Exactly, that is why they play the games, he could end this year as the A10 POY and a first rounder, nobody knows for certain what will happen, and that is just the opinion of one website, somebody else could have him ranked differently.

And I just want to say that I am neutral on this as to which party is at fault, I know I posted some things in support of the alleged victim due to looking at both sides, but none of us really knows what happened.

Last edited by ud2; 10-01-2015 at 04:59 PM..
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
90th ranked senior prior to the season starting. We all know of cases where someone took off their senior year and moved up the ranks. The only ranking that would count is just before draft time. where will he be then, or could be if this had not occurred. Good attorneys can draft up some very probable and believable scenarios. Likewise a very gifted and highly ranked senior could lose considerable ground during his senior year. That is why they play the game. Who woulda thunk the mens and womens teams would have journeyed to the elite eight.
He could also break a leg, break an ankle, etc.

just sayin'
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
She said in the police report, or somewhere someone posted on here that she had said, she felt more drunk on the way home than in the bar. I'm just repeating that..
This is always the case...as the human body processes alcohol in a manner that you continue to "go up" in terms of BAC for some time after drinking...then it plateaus.

I, unfortunately believe, that the complainant in this was insinuating that her level of intoxication went up because she was trying to assert she was drugged. She probably hoped that the investigators took the bait and went the drugged route that led to forced sex. But...in this case, no one will ever know as a rape kit was never completed...and neither was a blood draw.
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  #386  
Old 10-01-2015, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I'm not making any assertion as to whether or not damages will be available. The only comment is that being the 90th ranked senior likely means undrafted free agent.

Someone else may have called into question whether that means no monetary damages.
Let me ask the UD fans that are pointing to this 90th ranked senior rating. Do you honestly believe that is even close to correct? The star player of a projected top 25 team is 90th best senior in the country? This is ridiculous. Especially in today's college basketball world where the top players don't usually stay for their senior seasons. But I would go as far as saying he was better than 90th best junior last season when there was obviously a bigger group to choose from.
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:06 PM
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Regardless of whether or not Pierre was going to be drafted, even had this incident never occurred, it doesn't mean his CoC punishment hasn't created "damages". You'd have to be a fool to argue someone suspended by their university after a rape allegation has not had damage inflicted upon them. There are other arenas than the NBA in which potential and future damage can occur.
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
WOW, calling Rollo closed minded while assuming everyone else is open minded is an interesting spin on things. Kind of like if you don't agree with me, you are closed minded. Not always a fan of Rollo but in this case he presents a plausible theory.
I never said Rollo was closed minded, you added that, my reference was that he suddenly had tunnel vision. One does not have to be closed minded to have tunnel vision on a particular subject.
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  #389  
Old 10-01-2015, 08:48 PM
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1. You can't prove Pierre would get drafted, make millions and thus sue the U.

2. I'm hearing UHB suspended him from basketball, Title 9 rules assisted that cause, for right or wrong.

3. I too am believing Pierre then chose, probably at urging of counsel to withdraw this semester.

4. Meaning that his lawyer knows the options are :

A) go after the process (UHB and UD), POSSIBLY get a reversal
B) go after UD in a lawsuit. (Sketchy, imo)
C) put up token pressure, fight for Pierre and he returns Dec 22
D) seeing a,b,c not progressing Pierre transfers sometime on November or conclusion of this mess.

E) Ginsburg goes after the girl to recant or change testimony, but that's doubtful unless that suggested 3 way occurs and he punches holes in her statements

I'm thinking A and D
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Old 10-01-2015, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
I never said Rollo was closed minded, you added that, my reference was that he suddenly had tunnel vision. One does not have to be closed minded to have tunnel vision on a particular subject.
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Old 10-01-2015, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86 View Post
1. You can't prove Pierre would get drafted, make millions and thus sue the U.

2. I'm hearing UHB suspended him from basketball, Title 9 rules assisted that cause, for right or wrong.

3. I too am believing Pierre then chose, probably at urging of counsel to withdraw this semester.

4. Meaning that his lawyer knows the options are :

A) go after the process (UHB and UD), POSSIBLY get a reversal
B) go after UD in a lawsuit. (Sketchy, imo)
C) put up token pressure, fight for Pierre and he returns Dec 22
D) seeing a,b,c not progressing Pierre transfers sometime on November or conclusion of this mess.

E) Ginsburg goes after the girl to recant or change testimony, but that's doubtful unless that suggested 3 way occurs and he punches holes in her statements

I'm thinking A and D
Of course you cannot prove what he would make nor can you prove that he will not be drafted in the first round, it all has to play out but with a jury trial if it ever went to that is a crap shoot. Juries can go any direction, but I'd dare say he could have a very favorable jury if it were held in montgomery country. I seriously doubt this goes to trial.
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  #392  
Old 10-01-2015, 10:55 PM
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Speaking only to the topic about whether or not this hurts DP's NBA chances. The NBA is not like the NFL. Character does not play as much of a role when it comes to the NBA. There are more limited spots in the NBA than the NFL, especially when you consider all of the players worldwide. With only 12-15 man rosters, teams need talent more than anything else. Believe me, if DP is NBA worthy, none of this will affect his chances. NONE. If he can cut it in the league, someone will draft him if they think they need to.
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  #393  
Old 10-02-2015, 12:33 AM
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Lightbulb Silly Response Chris; but funny though.

Anyone hear of Negele Knight???????????

ChrisR, oh my lord, that can't be what you got from my post. It can't be. I certainly never called you stupid.

But you never answered my question: How did you know my patio door was broke? And, are you aware it is just the door handle not the door itself? Okay, I am just joking about your clairvoyance. But my patio door handle is broke. I think I was attempting to close-it, when I heard the news 1290 news flash about Pierre being suspended, and I ripped the handle off all in one (e)motion.

But I have to say your comical response to my post is very very cavalier. I guess I can understand the owner and editor of this board having to play it down the middle in fear that the UD Administration might shun you. Believe me, I wouldn't put it past them. They would probably attempt take you in front of the CofC and suspend you from UD activities for life. Falling back solely upon my testimony against you of course.

I know that you are a very bright, intelligent, and successful man, but for god's sake, act like it.

My message to the UD Administration is, that Beatty Town Coach is the best **** Dayton Flyer Fan in all the land; even if they don't want me to be.

Last edited by Beatty Town Coach; 10-02-2015 at 12:36 AM..
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  #394  
Old 10-02-2015, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Buster Goode View Post
There are no boring topics, only boring content creators

As an experiment, let’s pick a boring topic and see what we can come up with.

How about coffee cups? Boring enough for you? Take a few moments and dig for the right questions that may reveal some interesting article topics …
•Who invented the first coffee cup and how did they get their inspiration?
•What makes people think they need to drink coffee from a coffee cup and water from a glass?
•When do coffee cup sales rise and what does that tell us about the American public?
•Where are coffee cups made, and why not somewhere else?
•Why are we drawn to novelty coffee cups with phrases like “World’s Greatest Dad” on them?
•How does a coffee cup get all the way from China to the US and still sell for a profit?

See what I did there?

I didn’t put a great deal of thought into these, I just asked the traditional “who,” “what,” “when,” “where,” “why,” and “how” questions, and spent a little bit of time pondering what would make them interesting to me.

Apply the “who,” “what,” “when,” “where,” “why,” and “how” series of questions to your own niche topic, and see what you can come up with.
Handy thinking catalyst for an idle brain. Another type of "modal thinking" is stages of selectivity that escalate from exposure to perception and finally retention. When any of these don't bring emotional comfort either a person lives with discomfort, goes on med or commits suicide. Of course before we opt for a dirt nap, there's always friends like Jim Beam or Johnny Walker to help us through the night.
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  #395  
Old 10-02-2015, 07:08 AM
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Why it's important to know whether he's SUSPENDED or WITHDREW

Here's something I hadn't thought about but was just brought up to me be a friend who works at another school.

The Pierre story broke on Sept. 19th or 20th and the class 'drop' date (with no record) for Fall semester was Sept. 16th. If Pierre withdrew on the 17th, 18th, 19th or 20th, he will have W's on his transcript, making the Fall semester one where he was enrolled and failed to pass six hours, the minimum necessary to stay eligible....meaning he's done.

If Pierre was suspended/administratively dropped from his classes, or if he dropped them before the Sept. 16th date, then it's merely a missed semester and he's eligible to play in the 2nd semester.

Just another Royally f'ed up situation to consider...

King Rollo...OUT!
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  #396  
Old 10-02-2015, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Here's something I hadn't thought about but was just brought up to me be a friend who works at another school.

The Pierre story broke on Sept. 19th or 20th and the class 'drop' date (with no record) for Fall semester was Sept. 16th. If Pierre withdrew on the 17th, 18th, 19th or 20th, he will have W's on his transcript, making the Fall semester one where he was enrolled and failed to pass six hours, the minimum necessary to stay eligible....meaning he's done.

If Pierre was suspended/administratively dropped from his classes, or if he dropped them before the Sept. 16th date, then it's merely a missed semester and he's eligible to play in the 2nd semester.

Just another Royally f'ed up situation to consider...

King Rollo...OUT!
Since the wording was "eligible to play vs Miami O on Dec 22" suggest either he was indeed suspended or withdrew before the deadline. Or its just sports speech.
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  #397  
Old 10-02-2015, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by anthonycharles View Post
Speaking only to the topic about whether or not this hurts DP's NBA chances. The NBA is not like the NFL. Character does not play as much of a role when it comes to the NBA. There are more limited spots in the NBA than the NFL, especially when you consider all of the players worldwide. With only 12-15 man rosters, teams need talent more than anything else. Believe me, if DP is NBA worthy, none of this will affect his chances. NONE. If he can cut it in the league, someone will draft him if they think they need to.
I agree and I will even say if DP never plays another second of ball at the college level he will at least be in some NBA team's training camp next year as GMs have seen his "potential".
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  #398  
Old 10-02-2015, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86 View Post
1. You can't prove Pierre would get drafted, make millions and thus sue the U.
Not directed solely at you, Flyer 86, but come on people haven't you seen lawyers in action?

When high-powered CEO's get giant buyout packages for clearly failing as the CEO, do you think it's because their lawyers are DUMB? Making this sort of an argument is what these people do for a living.

DP's lawyer will find some statistician somewhere who will "prove" that DP was exactly the kind of candidate who would have had a breakout senior year, that was taken from him unfairly, and so UD owes him millions.

If you were DP, would you look at the situation and say "aw shucks, I'm just the 90th best player, no chance this hurts me at all. Never mind." No, you make your argument based on all the facts you can generate in your favor.
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Old 10-02-2015, 10:02 AM
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My source at UD has told me that do not rule out the option of Pierre scenario following the same path as Kavanuagh in which DP would sit out this year and return next year. While I want Peirre to play now and play this year, if it shapes up this way - next year could be really special.

Seniors: Schoochie, KD, Pollard, Charles Cooke, Dyshawn Peirre

We would return everybody and add Josh Cunningham and Trey Landers.

I hate to look forward to next year prior to this year starting, but wow that would be a deep and talented team!!
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  #400  
Old 10-02-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Not directed solely at you, Flyer 86, but come on people haven't you seen lawyers in action?

When high-powered CEO's get giant buyout packages for clearly failing as the CEO, do you think it's because their lawyers are DUMB? Making this sort of an argument is what these people do for a living.

DP's lawyer will find some statistician somewhere who will "prove" that DP was exactly the kind of candidate who would have had a breakout senior year, that was taken from him unfairly, and so UD owes him millions.

If you were DP, would you look at the situation and say "aw shucks, I'm just the 90th best player, no chance this hurts me at all. Never mind." No, you make your argument based on all the facts you can generate in your favor.

I STILL think this is a "possibility" but one lower down the scale. Big risk to take that to court imo. However i don' t know Ginsburg or what his approach is.

If someone knows he's a "balls to the wall" guy - then this might be first choice. Hard to tell which way this pool table breaks
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